Pincer Maneuver in Reverse

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So right now Pincer Maneuver first pulls a card from deck, boosts it then you shuffle a card from your hand back in. This leads to a very unnatural feeling where you actually DON'T want to draw your leader boost target beforehand. So what if these actions were reversed?
You first shuffle back into deck THEN draw. This way you can choose the exact same card you just shuffled in as well.
I love the idea of Pincer Maneuver being an anti-brick sort of leader and I think this would help it a lot. Please give me your thoughts.
 
So right now Pincer Maneuver first pulls a card from deck, boosts it then you shuffle a card from your hand back in. This leads to a very unnatural feeling where you actually DON'T want to draw your leader boost target beforehand. So what if these actions were reversed?
You first shuffle back into deck THEN draw. This way you can choose the exact same card you just shuffled in as well.
I love the idea of Pincer Maneuver being an anti-brick sort of leader and I think this would help it a lot. Please give me your thoughts.

I personally hate the idea very much. The last thing NR needs is another crazy OP leader. The whole point of the current order is to offset the mulligans. Your change ensures you get cards like Vsy at 8 points every game. Too much consistency is never a good thing.
 
I personally hate the idea very much. The last thing NR needs is another crazy OP leader. The whole point of the current order is to offset the mulligans. Your change ensures you get cards like Vsy at 8 points every game. Too much consistency is never a good thing.

He's right @Slizzl mate, how are we supposed to steal Vsy
using Miruna (yum yum)
if you boost her up to 8..?
...c'mon now, be reasonable... :coolstory:
 
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He's right @Slizzl mate, how are we supposed to steal Vsy
using Miruna (yum yum)
if you boost her up to 8..?
...c'mon now, be reasonable...:coolstory:

You already have an echo card that lets you pull anything up to provision 9 and a neutral echo that lets you pull any card you want. Now you want to enhance that even further by removing the only safeguard they put in place. You honestly believe NR should be able to pull any 5 cards in a single match with 3 of them receiving up to 5 point boosts?

The current system is not a flaw. It is a balancing act to make you cautious with your mulligans. The whole point of the suggestion is to remove that limit to enhance the mulligans and thus add even more consistency to a faction that is already the most consistent. I was being honest when I said I hate this idea very much. Not the person behind it, just the idea.
 
You already have an echo card that lets you pull anything up to provision 9 and a neutral echo that lets you pull any card you want. Now you want to enhance that even further by removing the only safeguard they put in place. You honestly believe NR should be able to pull any 5 cards in a single match with 3 of them receiving up to 5 point boosts?

The current system is not a flaw. It is a balancing act to make you cautious with your mulligans. The whole point of the suggestion is to remove that limit to enhance the mulligans and thus add even more consistency to a faction that is already the most consistent. I was being honest when I said I hate this idea very much. Not the person behind it, just the idea.
Pincer has 1 charge, not 3 and sees no play, because, unlike the atrocity that is Shieldwall, this ability is just not good enough as is.
 
Pincer has 1 charge, not 3 and sees no play, because, unlike the atrocity that is Shieldwall, this ability is just not good enough as is.

I disagree. You have Shieldwall so OP that it gets all the spotlight. That doesn’t mean Pincer isn’t omega level OP in context. As I said above you are talking about NR being able to play essentially any 5 cards from the deck with three of them getting boosted up to 5 points. That is just to much consistency. Add to that the high number of self sustaining engines and high utility cards and NR is already tough enough. We don’t need to go out of our way to make them stronger.
 
I disagree. You have Shieldwall so OP that it gets all the spotlight. That doesn’t mean Pincer isn’t omega level OP in context. As I said above you are talking about NR being able to play essentially any 5 cards from the deck with three of them getting boosted up to 5 points. That is just to much consistency. Add to that the high number of self sustaining engines and high utility cards and NR is already tough enough. We don’t need to go out of our way to make them stronger.
How are you making NR overall stronger by adding a little consistency on an unused ability, as even with that change it will be horribly overshadowed by the ludicrously overpowered Shieldwall ?
And by the way, even Mobilization sees play, unlike Pincer Maneuver and noone complains about those decks.

Also Pincer should add consistency, as it is effectively worth 5 points + a perfect mulligan, which without the consistency is worth less than the old Force of Nature.
 

DRK3

Forum veteran
Even with OP's suggestion, Pincer Maneuver would still be largely ignored. Boosting a card by 5 is ridiculously bad for a leader ability, at least when we compare it to other NR abilities, Shieldwall alone does a better job with a SINGLE charge, let alone 3 (for example Anseis at 6+Shield is better than at 9, no shield).

NR has so many ways of protecting and boosting units out of removal range, Pincer went from one of the best to one of the worst abilities, i will probably never use this new crap version, even Stockpile can do better in some situations.
 
You already have an echo card that lets you pull anything up to provision 9 and a neutral echo that lets you pull any card you want. Now you want to enhance that even further by removing the only safeguard they put in place. You honestly believe NR should be able to pull any 5 cards in a single match with 3 of them receiving up to 5 point boosts?

The current system is not a flaw. It is a balancing act to make you cautious with your mulligans. The whole point of the suggestion is to remove that limit to enhance the mulligans and thus add even more consistency to a faction that is already the most consistent. I was being honest when I said I hate this idea very much. Not the person behind it, just the idea.
...you realise I was joking right..? :coolstory:

Cheers ! :beer:
 
Even with OP's suggestion, Pincer Maneuver would still be largely ignored. Boosting a card by 5 is ridiculously bad for a leader ability, at least when we compare it to other NR abilities, Shieldwall alone does a better job with a SINGLE charge, let alone 3 (for example Anseis at 6+Shield is better than at 9, no shield).

NR has so many ways of protecting and boosting units out of removal range, Pincer went from one of the best to one of the worst abilities, i will probably never use this new crap version, even Stockpile can do better in some situations.

+5 is what you get from Mahakam forge. This is +5 with the ability to select any card you want from your deck. Big difference. As I said twice now, this leader ability plus the two echo cards is instant consistency. You can pull off any number of excellent archetypes with it. Stockpile is a joke compared to it. You play an 8 point Vys and unless your opponent has a lock or movement card the round is pretty well in hand. If you use one of the echo cards to set a defender beforehand good luck to your opponent. Pincer is the second or third strongest NR leader, people just don’t play around with it enough to see its potential.
 
+5 is what you get from Mahakam forge. This is +5 with the ability to select any card you want from your deck. Big difference. As I said twice now, this leader ability plus the two echo cards is instant consistency. You can pull off any number of excellent archetypes with it. Stockpile is a joke compared to it. You play an 8 point Vys and unless your opponent has a lock or movement card the round is pretty well in hand. If you use one of the echo cards to set a defender beforehand good luck to your opponent. Pincer is the second or third strongest NR leader, people just don’t play around with it enough to see its potential.
You play an 8 point Vys and if your opponent has anything remotely resembling heatwave, invocation, hjalmar etc you just lost vysagota and your entire leader in a trade against 1 card, games have been lost by far less.
 
You play an 8 point Vys and if your opponent has anything remotely resembling heatwave, invocation, hjalmar etc you just lost vysagota and your entire leader in a trade against 1 card, games have been lost by far less.

You underestimate the power of Vys. I used Shieldwall and made him dominant in deck that wasn’t even built around tutoring. Moreover, kill 8s are not common. Use a defender followed by vis and you have less than 20 points on the row so no Igni. You need to purify the defender before you can get to Viz the next turn and you need to have a strong removal to take him out, which frees up war elephant or rogner, or other finishers to work uninterrupted. You need to consider all the possibilities of a NR deck that can literally hit its key cards 100 percent of the time.
 

DRK3

Forum veteran
+5 is what you get from Mahakam forge. This is +5 with the ability to select any card you want from your deck. Big difference. As I said twice now, this leader ability plus the two echo cards is instant consistency. You can pull off any number of excellent archetypes with it. Stockpile is a joke compared to it. You play an 8 point Vys and unless your opponent has a lock or movement card the round is pretty well in hand. If you use one of the echo cards to set a defender beforehand good luck to your opponent. Pincer is the second or third strongest NR leader, people just don’t play around with it enough to see its potential.

Comparing different faction's leader abilities is tricky, that's why i compared Pincer Maneuver exclusively with other NR abilities. But if you wanna go that way, Mahakam Forge is only 5, but then you have the passive of +1 armor to all dwarves. Also the +5 synergizes with pyrotechnician, yarpen zigrin, aglais, gord and more.

Then you mention the value of consistency offered by Pincer Maneuver, and also the 2 echo cards found in most NR decks. That's the thing - with those 2 (Oneiro and AA), you dont need even more consistency, that's overkill, its preferable to have a leader that can give you something else.

You mention the value of Vysogotta, and i think everyone agrees that's a gamedecisive card, and why everyone will try to stop it as soon as it's played. But playing at 8pt? I would rather play it at 5+shield, that way if its countered by Heatwave it hurts less. Also Rockslide is pretty popular on one of the 3 most popular decks, which deals exactly 8dmg, while if it had a shield, it would be protected for 2 turns against most things except SK and ST Precision Strike.

Im sorry but i disagree, Shieldwall, Uprising and Zeal are clearly better, and i would say Mobilization and Meve's ability (cant remember the name) are also better, Pincer Maneuver cant do anything that other NR cards or leaders can do better.
 
I think people are being overly harsh on the new Pincer Maneuver. You can do some cool stuff with it like playing Adalia into a Dun Banner, shuffling the other Dun Banner into deck while pulling and boosting your big card say something like Belohun. Then you boost the remaining Dun Banner for an easy *9 point thinning play while you store a 10 point Belohun.
Sure, SW is better, but SW is broken.
 
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I think people are being overly harsh on the new Pincer Maneuver. You can do some cool stuff with it like playing Adalia into a Dun Banner, shuffling the other Dun Banner into deck while pulling and boosting your big card say something like Belohun. Then you boost the remaining Dun Banner for an easy 12 point play while you store a 10 point Belohun.
Sure, SW is better, but SW is broken.

I agree completely that people underestimate Pincer. In general I still believe beyond the SW nerf the whole faction needs some kind of nerf. There are just to many self sustaining engines and game breaking utility cards.
 
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