Miles Tost on Cyberpunk 2077 Game Length and Development Process

[fridgeband]

As one of the developers said "we aim to create an RPG that feels good to play" and regardless bad balancing is awful game design especially with a game that tries to encourage you to play with multiple styles

Honestly if balance is the only thing motivating me to play with different styles, there's something wrong. I already know 100% for sure that I need no extra motivations to try all the different play styles in Cyberpunk2077. in some cases I really like balance, but in many other cases I much prefer simply just having fun. Sometimes balance for the sake of balance isn't fun. Sometimes balance ruins fun. Simple as that.

 

[theg4dfly]

Honestly if balance is the only thing motivating me to play with different styles, there's something wrong. I already know 100% for sure that I need no extra motivations to try all the different play styles in Cyberpunk2077. in some cases I really like balance, but in many other cases I much prefer simply just having fun. Sometimes balance for the sake of balance isn't fun. Sometimes balance ruins fun. Simple as that.

Yeah, balance is overrated in single-player games. It's good to have a challenge on a new playthrough by playing a fun gimmick build.

Obvious, balance is critically important in multiplayer. But this game isn't multiplayer, and as such, the only way to keep things from getting too stale or easy is to change how you play the game. There just isn't as much reward for minmaxing a single-player game as there is in multiplayer.

I actually like minmaxing a lot, and I'll probably do that on my first playthrough. Later on though, I will not worry about that and just try interesting stuff.

 

[Nemo1117]

Kinda like, when they show gameplay footage they put "Work in progress - does not represent the final look of the game" or when the narrative at 0:19 tells the viewer that what are they about to see is all subject to change?

Yeah... they did all that, they literally spelled it all out for people that nothing there is finalized and anything might be scrapped or changed. And guess what... people are still coming back with "but, but... in that one video it was there!!!!"

SMH

CDPR can emphasize all they want about features being tested... to many, development cycle is black magic, and games just happen. I'd love for all the naysayers to create their own game dev studio, and make a game with all the features they want... lol

Not with a tiny font that barely visible. Not to mention it says "Does not represent the final look of the product" which people will take to mean "the game might not look so nice graphically".

The message needs to be clear both literally (not in an ignorable transparent font) and semantically ("Does not represent the final look of the game nor is shown gameplay guaranteed to be in the final product.")

Ya, it will water down the hype a bit since … the video would basically be "saying nothing". But "saying nothing" is exactly what they should be doing if they can't promise anything. Only show what you can guarantee will be delivered.

Anyway, as I said before, with or without disclaimer, you are showing customers a vision of the the future that they will not be getting. You put in their head the idea of what could be done, the ideal game - just because you can't do it is irrelevant. It just makes the final product you produce disappointing in comparison.

You don't want to blow people away with a trailer. You want to blow people away with the game - when they launch it and play it; having players think "it's not as good as the hypothetical game showed in the trailer" is bad.

Edit:

IMHO, people need to do marketing more like Apple.

Their product announcements are almost "last minute", even for their new products, and they make their announcements "big". In their heyday, Jobs would come on, demo the product - "you can do all this stuff" - followed by "it's available next month" then a metaphorical mic drop.

Over the month, through word of mouth and the news cycle, people will hype themselves into a frenzy. It's long enough to build hype but not so long that people lose interest or start getting "imaginative". When they get the product, they are blown away. Holy @#$%, it works exactly as Jobs said it would - then they would discover small features that Jobs couldn't squeeze into the demo and hype it even further - i.e. Apple overdelivered. Never is there a single moment (for most people) where they thought "it could have this feature but it doesn't" - they are too busy digesting the demo followed by exploring the product, surprised every step of the way, to be "imaginative" and start nitpicking.

 

[Punknaught2020]

Reason: Because dual wielding is dumb for any professional, because you cannot reload properly or fast or aim as good as you can with just one.. You see every professional using double hand grip for best results and actually aim down the sights for accuracy and you can switch magazines faster and smoother with little interruption. Not to mention handling depending on what type of weapon you are using.

*(In before the arguement: how two machine pistols or smg weapons would be such and such...but they still fall under the issue of what happens after you are out of ammo for both)
Unless they have changed it you can carry 3 weapons on you total.
Your main hand - single hand firearm and then your cyberarm accessory being the only (twin) style weaponry that pairs together. Or mantis blades for instance.

Now if you have a weapon in each hand you have to fire ...then literally drop or holster one weapon or both and then reload, or pull new ones and continue. Yes initially you fire more rounds at the target but good then what....this isnt the matrix movie.

V is not a ganger like Jackie was, Jackie does it because maybe he thinks its cool (like holding pistols sideways) and is maybe ambidextrous, or has watched one to many braindance of old hollywoodism action movies where people think its cool. Where it is actually very impractical.

Dual wielding. Only cool if you can carry 6 loaded handguns on your harness and even then there are easier ways. Does it have a place with some weapons...sure, like with many melee weapons and martial arts. But it is far from the norm when it comes to firearms.

Yes its a video game, but doesn't mean you can do everything that others can just because it was shown that others can do it. Same goes with flying an Aerodyne or doing a jumping double arm blade spin attack (although you might never know).. there are plenty of other examples of things they have shown others doing that the PC cannot or probably cannot.

Thats like saying you should be able to have that nice mansion they showed in the trailer just because they showed it.

Not entitled to have and be able to do everything just because you think you should be. You can play the game with your choices but some things are still built in to the V character for design reasons. What all those reasons are no one outside of CDPR will know till the game is being played from start to finish.

 

[Bealdor]

Not with a tiny font that barely visible. Not to mention it says "Does not represent the final look of the product" which people will take to mean "the game might not look so nice graphically".

The message needs to be clear both literally (not in an ignorable transparent font) and semantically ("Does not represent the final look of the game nor is shown gameplay guaranteed to be in the final product.")

But in the same video the narrator clearly says
"The gameplay you're about to see is from a work-in-progress version of the game. Everything you see is potentially subject to change."
One could think that this disclaimer should be sufficient, but apparently too many gamers get its meaning/intention wrong:

 

[Bloodartist]

RDR 2 is an action adventure game Cyberpunk is an RPG so stats and balancing are much harder to do compared to RDR 2.

 

[kofeiiniturpa]

View attachment 11065085

It is kinda telling, that that's how they want to describe the game; "open world, action adventure story".

As opposed to, say, "open world roleplaying game", or "an action packed roleplaying adventure" (or, same w/o "action packed"), or something similiar.

Doesn't matter anymore, though. The description seems apt as we've seen and changing it at this point wouldn't do anything (it's just a piece of text afterall).

 

[Nadim0000]

Honestly if balance is the only thing motivating me to play with different styles, there's something wrong. I already know 100% for sure that I need no extra motivations to try all the different play styles in Cyberpunk2077. in some cases I really like balance, but in many other cases I much prefer simply just having fun. Sometimes balance for the sake of balance isn't fun. Sometimes balance ruins fun. Simple as that.

it sounds good on paper but on the flip side of the coin ,if the game favors a playstyle over the other it will be a very valid criticism ,dishonored have been heavily criticized because of how much it discourages lethal gameplay , same thing with skyrim that game is fucking broken in every sense of the word ,having variety just for the sake of variety with unpolished gameplay mechanics can heavily harm the gameplay.

Post automatically merged: Oct 27, 2020

View attachment 11065085

Read below its action adventure RPG with RPG mechanics ,RDR 2 is purely action adventure game with very little to no RPG mechanics

 

[KakitaTatsumaru]

Reason: Because dual wielding is dumb for any professional, because you cannot reload properly or fast or aim as good as you can with just one.. You see every professional using double hand grip for best results and actually aim down the sights for accuracy and you can switch magazines faster and smoother with little interruption. Not to mention handling depending on what type of weapon you are using.

Homing bullets.

Now if you have a weapon in each hand you have to fire ...then literally drop or holster one weapon or both and then reload, or pull new ones and continue. Yes initially you fire more rounds at the target but good then what....this isnt the matrix movie.

If you are good you can do this:

If you aren't good, armpits can hold guns you aren't reloading (unless you wear not enough clothes, then you're good for a burn).

V is not a ganger like Jackie was, Jackie does it because maybe he thinks its cool (like holding pistols sideways) and is maybe ambidextrous, or has watched one to many braindance of old hollywoodism action movies where people think its cool. Where it is actually very impractical.

V can also choose style over subtance, and in C2077 it could have been both style and substance because of homing bullets. Besides it's a game where player can aim for the head, going that way is already hollywoodism anyway.

Yes its a video game, but doesn't mean you can do everything that others can just because it was shown that others can do it. Same goes with flying an Aerodyne or doing a jumping double arm blade spin attack (although you might never know).. there are plenty of other examples of things they have shown others doing that the PC cannot or probably cannot.

It's not just an game, it's an RPG where you're supposed to create your character. No one forbid you to create a street kid Jackie "clone", with the same mindset and so on.

 

[Nemo1117]

But in the same video the narrator clearly says
"The gameplay you're about to see is from a work-in-progress version of the game. Everything you see is potentially subject to change."
One could think that this disclaimer should be sufficient, but apparently too many gamers get its meaning/intention wrong:

View attachment 11065082

You can keep repeating that until the heat death of the universe. People will still be "disappointed".

Human psychology does what human psychology does. Learn to manage expectations the way companies like Apple have done it.

 

[Kaspar.Hauser]

I don't really think that the lack of dual wielding pistols can hurt the gaming experience so badly.

In real life situations, police officers and soldiers don't use it because they lose accuracy, so it's better to stick to just one pistol (except when using a supressing fire - which probably is better with other kinds of weapon).

In Cyberpunk 2077, considering that having cyborg arms is a common thing, the recoil problem for dual wielding is solved.

Maybe they made this decision based on gaming mechanics, like making handling one pistol with two hands useless because everyone would always dual wield pistols (specially because some guns have homing bullets), for DPS management purposes, for making automatic guns less useful, and so on.

I really don't have a conclusion if the lack of dual wielding is a bad decision or a necessary limitation for the game.

 

[TheMaster100]

Perhaps cdpr will actually have some good gameplay for once. We'll see in a couple of weeks.

 

[Codecypher]

They should only show things that are already a confirmed lock and won't be changed anymore.

At the very least they should provide more context to the stuff they show. If it's not guaranteed to be in the final build, they really need to stress that what the player is see is something that they are "trying out". Even then it's probably still a bad idea as players will still feel bad over "what could have been".

It's all about customer psychology.

To be frank, I don't understand why game developers promote their games so freaking early - this is doubly so for established developers who everyone is already keeping an eye on.

Bro. If you're talking about the metro system. All the material until the last few months had a disclaimer: Build in development and is subject to change.
I am an adult and I understand that game development is not easy and things change in development.

Some things are great on paper but when implemented not so fun or fulfilling.

The simple fix to your solution is to wait for reviews and not look at games that are in development that clearly state and several times might I add that things could change and that what you see is not final.

 

[Nemo1117]

The simple fix to your solution is to wait for reviews and not look at games that are in development that clearly state and several times might I add that things could change and that what you see is not final.

If your "solution" requires customers to change their behavior … it isn't a solution.

I honestly don't get what is so hard about not hyping your game until it's mostly done - where all that's left is polishing up rough edges and fixing minor bugs; especially when you are a well known developer and don't need to struggle to get people's attention.

 

[0248991]

"The gameplay you're about to see is from a work-in-progress version of the game. Everything you see is potentially subject to change."
One could think that this disclaimer should be sufficient, but apparently too many gamers get its meaning/intention wrong:

Yeah, I must say that Reds were really generous to show us all the gameplays, night city wires, and everything even if the game was (buggy and) not finished
It helped the community to understand the game, story, mood, and everything

I guess that the feedback is mostly positive as players judge it as it if was already finished. And it was even stated that we still haven't really seen "anything".

Cheers to CDPR

 

[Spockprime]

In my non-professional opinion, you shouldn't show things you can't guarantee will be in the final game.

Marketing 101: Under-promise and overdeliver.

Never the other way around.

Expectation management is important.

Yep. This has been my complaint all along. The game development has been just fine. The marketing folks have been out of step, and creating expectations that the developers either never intended, or at best experimented with and decided wouldn't work the way they wanted.

 

[Suhiira]

I totally understand the removal of wallrunning, as it has a huge effect on map design.

Amen!

On the dual-wielding though, I think CDPR made a major mistake of showing Jackie repeatedly wield 2 pistols in the videos, so people got the wrong idea. Rightfully so, in my opinion. If you show something in the promo videos, the game is expected to have it.

There's a HUGE difference between holding two weapons and using them effectively.

So many people (usually with little to no real life firearms experience) think that just pointing a weapon at something and pulling the trigger pretty much automatically results in hitting their target.
NOT!
Movies and video games take this fallacy a step or three further with people spraying-and-praying yet always able to riddle their target. And let's not discuss little things like over heated barrels, the mass and volume of ammunition, and recoil.

YES, CP2077 is a video game, but unlike 95% of video games it's based on reality not Hollywood. If you want a feel for real life shooting in a video game go watch some Arma 3 vids. Call of Duty and all the other popular FPS games are GAMES not simulators. Their combat mechanics have virtually nothing to do with real life. If you want an FPS video game go play one, don't expect every game to be one.

On the dual wielding issue, I have a picture of myself holding and firing two M-60 machineguns. Guess what ... the ONLY thing I hit was the 5m high 100m wide backstop behind the target, and even that not all the time. Holding, and shooting two weapons is not the same as actually hitting anything with them. So with the exception of some rare people with superhuman skills dual wielding belongs in fantasy settings, i.e. your typical FPS game, not one based on reality.

 

[Skirlasvoud]

YES, CP2077 is a video game, but unlike 95% of video games it's based on reality not Hollywood.

Good post otherwise... though I have my doubts about the above sentence.

 

[KakitaTatsumaru]

Amen!


There's a HUGE difference between holding two weapons and using them effectively.

So many people (usually with little to no real life firearms experience) think that just pointing a weapon at something and pulling the trigger pretty much automatically results in hitting their target.
NOT!
Movies and video games take this fallacy a step or three further with people spraying-and-praying yet always able to riddle their target. And let's not discuss little things like over heated barrels, the mass and volume of ammunition, and recoil.

YES, CP2077 is a video game, but unlike 95% of video games it's based on reality not Hollywood. If you want a feel for real life shooting in a video game go watch some Arma 3 vids. Call of Duty and all the other popular FPS games are GAMES not simulators. Their combat mechanics have virtually nothing to do with real life. If you want an FPS video game go play one, don't expect every game to be one.

On the dual wielding issue, I have a picture of myself holding and firing two M-60 machineguns. Guess what ... the ONLY thing I hit was the 5m high 100m wide backstop behind the target, and even that not all the time. Holding, and shooting two weapons is not the same as actually hitting anything with them. So with the exception of some rare people with superhuman skills dual wielding belongs in fantasy settings, i.e. your typical FPS game, not one based on reality.

Did you have homing bullets?

 

[lelxrv]

Just basic common sense. It seems a lot of people were unaware of the nature of game development process. How much stuff is being cut from games. I remember reading the art director of Human Revolution said that they had to cut an entire location from the game because they couldn't finish it on time and it was one of his favorites so he regretted it big time. A LOT of stuff is thrown away for various reasons. My poor boi Iorveth didn't make it into The Witcher 3 and apparently he had a series of quests.