What do you think is gonna be first to get a hotfix?

[InkognitoXI]

then don't build your deck around 1 card. That kinda is the problem that's being exploited. This way there is chance to interact with it and that's still just 1 turn before going to the deck. I was going to say after 2 turns. Even that would still be generous. It would still see play in my mind, just not broken play.

Honestly I doubt it would see any play.
Right now long round decks clap it without issues.
If the strenghtening is nerfed by 1 (which it should) it will be a lot less accumulated value (assuming you play it 6 times that would be 1+2+3+4+5=15 less points).
If you do not build your deck around Viy it is not worth including.

 

[Celadyl]

Honestly I doubt it would see any play.
Right now long round decks clap it without issues.
If the strenghtening is nerfed by 1 (which it should) it will be a lot less accumulated value (assuming you play it 6 times that would be 1+2+3+4+5=15 less points).
If you do not build your deck around Viy it is not worth including.

this.
can we pls remember this isnt some 7p but a top end 12p card? if you make a deck with roche merciless/wild boar of the sea/eithne/pick whatever 12p/13p you want you will obviously build a deck around it, it's not worth the provision if you just pick it and dont play heavily into it what the heck?

the no-interaction aspect isnt really a problem, it's only a problem because most people cannot keep up with the points. if interaction is possible this card simply doesnt work. a 4p squirrel could make you forfeit. for which of the other cards I mentioned can that be said? right, none.
the deck plays heavily into tall punish/poison/reset and has basically no interaction to stop the opponents strategy. fix the points and you fix the problem.

 

[Guest 4375874]

Honestly I doubt it would see any play.
Right now long round decks clap it without issues.
If the strenghtening is nerfed by 1 (which it should) it will be a lot less accumulated value (assuming you play it 6 times that would be 1+2+3+4+5=15 less points).
If you do not build your deck around Viy it is not worth including.

We'll agree to disagree there. MO is my main and I have Viy in my deck, not built around it and it works plenty well.

As others have mentioned there are plenty of other cards in the graveyard that your opponent will have to think to chose from...whether it's something Ozzy will eat or Viy and that's IF at that point they can pull squirrel or something which not everyone will. Yes it would decrease Viy's max value but it also means you can combo with cards like Caranthir + Tatterwing. You'd be forced to think, not this mindless uninteractive play.

 

[Celadyl]

honestly it's not even like a no unit deck that REALLY has no interaction for the opponent. viy players slam multiple 10-20+ units on the board for you to kill

 

[Barracuda88]

Honestly I doubt it would see any play.
Right now long round decks clap it without issues.
If the strenghtening is nerfed by 1 (which it should) it will be a lot less accumulated value (assuming you play it 6 times that would be 1+2+3+4+5=15 less points).
If you do not build your deck around Viy it is not worth including.

You actually play it about 8 times if all goes well, and no, Movement ST doesn't win against Viy "with no issues." The only time I won against it so far (by 1 point) was when this doofus decided to "thin" his deck and played Oneiro into another tutor first lol. Well, OK, I won a second time when the dude played it and forgot to eat it I guess, leaving it on the board to be heatwaved. He forfeited the next turn.

Either way, nerfing strength boost by 1 is probably fine.

Post automatically merged: Dec 9, 2020

honestly it's not even like a no unit deck that REALLY has no interaction for the opponent. viy players slam multiple 10-20+ units on the board for you to kill

Well yeah, except to kill "multiple 10-20+ units" you have to have multiple removal cards in your deck that can do that, and unless you're NG that's not ideally what you're trying to do for fun.

 

[InkognitoXI]

You actually play it about 8 times if all goes well, and no, Movement ST doesn't win against Viy "with no issues." The only time I won against it so far (by 1 point) was when this doofus decided to "thin" his deck and played Oneiro into another tutor first lol. Well, OK, I won a second time when the dude played it and forgot to eat it I guess, leaving it on the board to be heatwaved. He forfeited the next turn.

Either way, nerfing strength boost by 1 is probably fine.

Well, these decks usually run little to no interruption.
If you play movement:
(i) Immediately set up your long round strategy (Cat Witcher, Sentry, Mentor etc)
(ii) Proceed to aggressively overrun them
(iii) Go into a 6+ card round 3 and set up your engines in the greediest way possible

[...]
Well yeah, except to kill "multiple 10-20+ units" you have to have multiple removal cards in your deck that can do that, and unless you're NG that's not ideally what you're trying to do for fun.

Either that or you have engines that outvalue them.
NG with Ivar and/or Leo + Masquerade Ball are very favored.
Old Shield Wall + Witcher swarm works for NR.
Movement works for ST.
Thus far I did not take a look at the other factions in detail, however (self-)poison SY should not be unfavored, if built properly.

 

[rrc]

...
If the strenghtening is nerfed by 1 (which it should) it will be a lot less accumulated value (assuming you play it 6 times that would be 1+2+3+4+5=15 less points).

If the strengthening is reduced by 1, would it only reduce 1+1+1+1+1+1 which is 6? How come it will reduce 15?

 

[Barracuda88]

Well, these decks usually run little to no interruption.
If you play movement:
(i) Immediately set up your long round strategy (Cat Witcher, Sentry, Mentor etc)
(ii) Proceed to aggressively overrun them
(iii) Go into a 6+ card round 3 and set up your engines in the greediest way possible

Aggressively overruning MO is a bit of a problem, especially on blue coin. And if you don't win that R1, there's nothing really stopping them from dropping a couple of Viys in R2 to bleed you and shorten R3. Also, though they don't a lot of removal, I've seen them run Haunt, which is a problem in itself.

Post automatically merged: Dec 9, 2020

If the strengthening is reduced by 1, would it only reduce 1+1+1+1+1+1 which is 6? How come it will reduce 15?

Because on 2nd play you get 10 instead of 11, and on 3rd it's 12 instead of 14, etc.

 

[InkognitoXI]

If the strengthening is reduced by 1, would it only reduce 1+1+1+1+1+1 which is 6? How come it will reduce 15?

it will reduce the value on each time it comes out afterwards, for each time it got 1 point less.
So the whole thing resembles a triangle.

Aggressively overruning MO is a bit of a problem, especially on blue coin. And if you don't win that R1, there's nothing really stopping them from dropping a couple of Viys in R2 to bleed you and shorten R3. Also, though they don't a lot of removal, I've seen them run Haunt, which is a problem in itself.
[...]

Well, even if you go first (especially if you are Movement ST) your engines can start snowballing really fast.
So fast in fact that your bronzes, if played early enough, get more value the later iterations of Viy.
Just take Sentry as an example.
An uncontested Sentry will also buff each Cat Witcher by 1 each turn (as well as Boar, Malena targets etc).

Haunt is indeed strong, however if properly set up the bronzes of the core of the Movement archtype already outrun that as well.
The worst problem is being afraid of falling behind.
Set up in the greediest way possible and if your opponent passes before you go down to 4 cards you get a 10 card round 3 anyways.

 

[Celadyl]

Well yeah, except to kill "multiple 10-20+ units" you have to have multiple removal cards in your deck that can do that, and unless you're NG that's not ideally what you're trying to do for fun.

yes I agree, that's why I suggested nerfing the strength gain instead of just murdering the playstyle this card was made for just because it is overtuned at launch. I dont think it is fundamentally problematic

 

[Guest 4375874]

While I think Viy needs to be looked at I think it's too early. If Viy is broken then so is Arch Griffin who plays for, if not above, the same value and it's certainly not toppling SK either. A lot of cards this expansion are overtuned. I've seen at least 2 factions so far that don't even need to counter Viy in order to win.

 

[InkognitoXI]

[...] I've seen at least 2 factions so far that don't even need to counter Viy in order to win.

NG Masquerade Ball, NR swarm, ST movement, SY (self-)poison, NR Shieldwall (, probably also SY Firesworn) ?
I would honestly be interested in how a refined SK Witcher deck would perform.
Do you by any chance have results on that ?
Also is anyone really sad that Viy decks somewhat counter SK Warriors ?

 

[Barracuda88]

it will reduce the value on each time it comes out afterwards, for each time it got 1 point less.
So the whole thing resembles a triangle.


Well, even if you go first (especially if you are Movement ST) your engines can start snowballing really fast.
So fast in fact that your bronzes, if played early enough, get more value the later iterations of Viy.
Just take Sentry as an example.
An uncontested Sentry will also buff each Cat Witcher by 1 each turn (as well as Boar, Malena targets etc).

Haunt is indeed strong, however if properly set up the bronzes of the core of the Movement archtype already outrun that as well.
The worst problem is being afraid of falling behind.
Set up in the greediest way possible and if your opponent passes before you go down to 4 cards you get a 10 card round 3 anyways.

The worst problem with the greediest setup is that the sentry is real easy to answer, and without the sentry, the point output is just average. I've seen Viy decks with parasite. I've seen them with manticores. Yes, in an ideal setting, with like 2 unanswered Sentries, a boar, a cat witcher, a mentor and a matron on the board I can generate an absolute ton of points per turn, but that's 6 moves to set up and a lot of ifs. Meanwhile, the MO player drop larva, a consume card and off he goes to 10+ per

 

[Celadyl]

NG Masquerade Ball, NR swarm, ST movement, SY (self-)poison, NR Shieldwall (, probably also SY Firesworn) ?
I would honestly be interested in how a refined SK Witcher deck would perform.
Do you by any chance have results on that ?
Also is anyone really sad that Viy decks somewhat counter SK Warriors ?

I'm not sad at all that something counters SK warriors of all things^^ I think SK has a lot of tools to counter viy, it has the bear-guy sukrus combo, you could play artis, you can play bear so the viy player has to row stack consumes and then play yrden etc etc

 

[rrc]

it will reduce the value on each time it comes out afterwards, for each time it got 1 point less.
So the whole thing resembles a triangle.
...

...
Because on 2nd play you get 10 instead of 11, and on 3rd it's 12 instead of 14, etc.

Yes! Sorry. Even though the overall strength with which Viy is going to come back is only 6 less, each time the consume target also loses 1. First time it loses 1, second time it loses 2, etc.
With 3 strengthening it goes: 8, 11, 14, 17, 20, 23, 26
With 2 strengthening it goes: 8, 10, 12, 14, 16, 18, 20

But instead of 119, it gets 98. Does it make any difference?

 

[Celadyl]

But instead of 119, it gets 98. Does it make any difference?

well...yes? do 21 points over 3 rounds matter? I'd like to think so

 

[Barracuda88]

Yes! Sorry. Even though the overall strength with which Viy is going to come back is only 6 less, each time the consume target also loses 1. First time it loses 1, second time it loses 2, etc.
With 3 strengthening it goes: 8, 11, 14, 17, 20, 23, 26
With 2 strengthening it goes: 8, 10, 12, 14, 16, 18, 20

But instead of 119, it gets 98. Does it make any difference?

Well, I'd say it's certainly a good start

 

[InkognitoXI]

The worst problem with the greediest setup is that the sentry is real easy to answer, and without the sentry, the point output is just average. I've seen Viy decks with parasite. I've seen them with manticores. Yes, in an ideal setting, with like 2 unanswered Sentries, a boar, a cat witcher, a mentor and a matron on the board I can generate an absolute ton of points per turn, but that's 6 moves to set up and a lot of ifs. Meanwhile, the MO player drop larva, a consume card and off he goes to 10+ per

The thing is that 1 Parasite and maybe 1 Manticore are not really able to answer the engines for long.
Also again you do not need to be afraid of falling behind during the initial turns if you can setup engines.
If you go first you can also use the Lamp + a leader charge to have Sentries play around both Parasite and Manticore.

But between 3 Cat Witchers, 2 Sentries, 1 Boar, 1 Malena, 2 Mentors, 2 Matrons etc they will not be able to keep up and will eventually fall behind, especially if Viy only strenghtens by 2.
Also Larvae are indeed strong, however with Sentries the engine value in movement ST grows larger than linearly, in fact in some cases quadratically.

[...]
But instead of 119, it gets 98. Does it make any difference?

21 points indeed do make a difference.
Also drawing more than maybe (if you are lucky) half the tutors in round 1 is unrealistic, so if you play it 4 times during round 1 that is 44 points in at least 37 provisions (assuming you draw it and the cheapest tutors).
I would like to think that decks should be able to keep up if they use the same amount of Gold/high provision value.

Also keep in mind that the largest instances happen during later rounds, so in Round 1, which is the essential round, they get the smallest Viys.
I would also be interested if being prepared to play Gezras or Gaetan Round 1 would be the correct play.

 

[quintivarium]

While I think Viy needs to be looked at I think it's too early. If Viy is broken then so is Arch Griffin who plays for, if not above, the same value and it's certainly not toppling SK either. A lot of cards this expansion are overtuned. I've seen at least 2 factions so far that don't even need to counter Viy in order to win.

There are at least two reasons Viy is much more problematic than Archgriffin.
1. Viy, by design, is either of little value to a deck or so heavily the focus of the deck that Viy must virtually carry it. This is not true of Griffin.
2. Viy, in an appropriately designed deck, is never exposed to interaction (except by NG deck manipulation antics which can usually be countered); Griffin is exposed to removal and damage.

Unfortunately, in its present form, Viy, however its stats are tweaked, will present a floor engine value all opposing decks must meet to be competitive. Unless this floor is so low that Viy decks are unplayable, it will be so high that only very heavy engine decks can be meta. This destroys the game.

Either Viy or several of the excessive possible tutors must be substantively changed; power tweaks to Viy can never bring balance.

 

[Guest 4375874]

NR Shieldwall

Doesn't even matter what leader ability. Viy decks have zero counters because it's built around tutors. Any NR deck (especially boost) left unchecked is just bonkers. I played against them a short while ago and Arch Griffin played for over 30pts in R3. Viy's popularity won't last because certain factions can't be left unchecked, you have to tech or disrupt them somehow. People are still learning how these cards work. I'll call it here and now. In about a month, Viy will still be an auto include but some tutors will have to be swapped out, it won't be as it is now.

Mind you I don't like the uninteractive nature of these cards so I'm in no way defending it. If Tutors are fixed (which we've been saying here for months) then these cards wouldn't be as problematic. Tutors restrict good designs like this.