One of the Downsides of WotW?

[Jamborinio]

I have been enjoying the new expansion a lot and at the moment it does seem there isn't one faction that's really out-performing all the rest, like there was with SK and the MM expansion.

However, one downside I see is a few of the card designs are leading to earlier and more pronounced auto loss or auto win conditions if you or your opponent don't happen to have the very specific answer in hand, whether that be a tall punish, a Heatwave, or some form of movement/purify or even a combination of the above. The upshot of this is there are now many more forfeits and more binary landslide endings to games.

Two obvious cards that come to mind are Kolgrim, which can balloon to really excessive values, or Arnaghad when combined with Sukrus. These are only 9 and 10 prov cards and if you don't have the immediate and correct answer, you may as well concede.

My concern may prove unfounded in the longer term once the dust has settled and people have adjusted, and it may even be the case that in upper echelons of pro-rank they've got the meta decks now to cover these blowouts...

Either which way, I have noticed an increasing number of 'not close' games that end in forfeits. Maybe some of these cards should have some kind of ceiling on them?

 

[Sensimilius]

My issue is that the new ST movement deck has bronzes that can completely carry a round, there's almost no need to play a gold card in R1 since if you drew your bronze combination you can get large amounts of points. Killing (or locking if you can) the Dol Blathana Sentry (but he can still have 2 of them) is imperative.
Though I think I'll need ( though I'd rather not lol) to play more vs this deck, maybe I'm missing some weaknesses.

 

[DRK3]

I do think this is the most balanced expansion Gwent ever had (maybe the 1st, Crimson Curse, was on the same level), but not without its fair share of overtuned cards, two of which are the ones OP mentioned.

But at least Kolgrim and Arnachad - and Gezras - can be countered by Heatwave, lock or tall removal if they're on such range (and you probably need a purify too since those decks usually run defender).

Worse its stupid Viy that is much harder to counter, i know we're all sick of hearing complaints about it, but if the devs are gonna hotfix anything, its that card.

 

[OuterSpaceDoggo]

I do think this is the most balanced expansion Gwent ever had (maybe the 1st, Crimson Curse, was on the same level), but not without its fair share of overtuned cards, two of which are the ones OP mentioned.

But at least Kolgrim and Arnachad - and Gezras - can be countered by Heatwave, lock or tall removal if they're on such range (and you probably need a purify too since those decks usually run defender).

Worse its stupid Viy that is much harder to counter, i know we're all sick of hearing complaints about it, but if the devs are gonna hotfix anything, its that card.

I agree with DRK3. This expansions feels pretty chill, I am starting to see very different decks ( excluding the toxic Viy deck and the usual netdecking ) . Much more dynamic than MM for sure. Maybe it's also related to the fact that I completly stopped caring about Rank, just fun and experimenting so that's on me ( different approach to the game ).

 

[ya1]

[X card] can be countered by Heatwave, lock or tall removal

Imagine such a card: 6 power, "After 2 allied turns, win the game." It can be heatwaved, locked... Is it not op?

Existence of answers is not the ultimate balancing tool. Such extreme passive abilities that demand drawing a specific answer create binary gameplay driven by rng. I'm not saying binary gameplay driven by rng is objectively a bad thing. Devs evidently think otherwise because they have been going further that way with every expansion. That's evidently CDPR's vision for the game. Binary, polarized, RNG-driven card game with overpowered cards and game-changing abilities making for lots of "Dandelion" moments and "fun" situations.

Well... apparently not "fun" for everyone. People have been complaining about that long before WotW. And those people happen to include top players like the Masters participants (search YouTube "spyroza polarizing thoughts"). But devs won't budge. Flashiness, randomness, memeness, gigantic point swings and "fun" (for the lucky winner, not so much for the rng-dumpstered loser) - these matter more than competitive balance and gameplay driven by genuine strategy.

And many people like it like that. And those who don't, time to move on. This will not change. It's been going further that way every expansion.

 

[Slizzl]

I have been enjoying the new expansion a lot and at the moment it does seem there isn't one faction that's really out-performing all the rest, like there was with SK and the MM expansion.

However, one downside I see is a few of the card designs are leading to earlier and more pronounced auto loss or auto win conditions if you or your opponent don't happen to have the very specific answer in hand, whether that be a tall punish, a Heatwave, or some form of movement/purify or even a combination of the above. The upshot of this is there are now many more forfeits and more binary landslide endings to games.

Two obvious cards that come to mind are Kolgrim, which can balloon to really excessive values, or Arnaghad when combined with Sukrus. These are only 9 and 10 prov cards and if you don't have the immediate and correct answer, you may as well concede.

My concern may prove unfounded in the longer term once the dust has settled and people have adjusted, and it may even be the case that in upper echelons of pro-rank they've got the meta decks now to cover these blowouts...

Either which way, I have noticed an increasing number of 'not close' games that end in forfeits. Maybe some of these cards should have some kind of ceiling on them?

I think many of these can be fixed by simply adjusting the Adrenaline.
Take Kolgrim for example, what if he had Adrenaline 1?
It's a big nerf for sure but I feel it might be justified considering how many points three turns can give him. With only two turns he could still get some nice value, just not excessive. Maybe reduce his provision cost to 8 to compensate a bit.
This is one reason I really like this keyword, it's easily adjustable.

There are some powerful cards this expansion but it shouldn't be as hard to balance as MM was. That expansion was truly a mess, I still feel like some cards from it are dragging down the game even today.

WotW is my favorite expansion so far. Just keeping it simple with one flexible keyword and expanding upon existing concepts is exactly what I wanted to see.
Now there's a good variety in playstyles.
I think it can be fairly balanced with just some changes, not like MM where it felt like the entire game needed an overhaul.

 

[Six-Sided-Prism]

There are some powerful cards this expansion but it shouldn't be as hard to balance as MM was. That expansion was truly a mess, I still feel like some cards from it are dragging down the game even today.

I'm forced to disagree. The Master Mirror cards aren't dragging the game down any more than the cards from the other expansions. Gwent is now chock-full of broken cards, and the Echos from Master Mirror are no worse than the Scenarios from Merchants of Ofir or the Defenders from Iron Judgment.

 

[DRK3]

Imagine such a card: 6 power, "After 2 allied turns, win the game." It can be heatwaved, locked... Is it not op?

Existence of answers is not the ultimate balancing tool. Such extreme passive abilities that demand drawing a specific answer create binary gameplay driven by rng. I'm not saying binary gameplay driven by rng is objectively a bad thing. Devs evidently think otherwise because they have been going further that way with every expansion. That's evidently CDPR's vision for the game. Binary, polarized, RNG-driven card game with overpowered cards and game-changing abilities making for lots of "Dandelion" moments and "fun" situations.

Well... apparently not "fun" for everyone. People have been complaining about that long before WotW. And those people happen to include top players like the Masters participants (search YouTube "spyroza polarizing thoughts"). But devs won't budge. Flashiness, randomness, memeness, gigantic point swings and "fun" (for the lucky winner, not so much for the rng-dumpstered loser) - these matter more than competitive balance and gameplay driven by genuine strategy.

And many people like it like that. And those who don't, time to move on. This will not change. It's been going further that way every expansion.

I agree, if the game had any sort of balance, there wouldnt be those cards that if you cant counter them, you just lose. Those can exist but they should require more difficult combos and deckbuilding costs than just play 1, if 1 isnt answered play 2 and win, which is what we have now.

But we're not nowhere near that stage, and the priorities should be to balance the powerful things that have pratically no counter, that's why i mentioned Viy. Yes you can run Yrden, but Yrden will only help in 1 round, and Viy players never pass, so you need to win R1 without using Yrden and losing CA which isnt easy at all.

PS - i think those powerful binary cards in this expansion are fine in most cases: for example Kolgrim you can see it coming miles away, when the opponent starts putting junk on your deck, Arnachad will require Sukrus/Defender or other ways to make him deadly and even then, since he can only be played late, he might not be worth it

Example: i was playing against Arnachad last night, i was playing MO swarm, by the time he played Arnachad all i had left were bone talismans and wide boosts and specials that were not affected by Arnachad and won easily.

 

[Fargothwave]

Gwent has never been as much fun as it is now. Well, I only play since last spring and don't know about Beta, but still.
Not too many truly broken things...apart from movement ST, that one generates some crazy points easily and needs to be brought down a notch.

Viy, on the other hand...I don't know. If you play NG, you have several legit ways of dealing with that BS. There's always Pogchampquax + lock on order combo if you value petty justice over consistent wins. This also works decently well against several other archetypes, most notably control ST. Double Snake Trap + Black Blood may be a thing as well, but I haven't tried that out yet. Then there's Double Salamander, Arnaghad shenanigans, Dire Bearden...but I don't like mandatory deckbuilding restrictions.

The funny thing is, though, is that as soon as I added Stregobor and Warrit to my Assimilation list, I stopped getting Viy matches. Like, I went 6->rank 1 over a couple of days, and haven't met one, even though before that it was Viy all day. Rigged matchmaking, anyone?

 

[Messyr]

Not too many truly broken things...apart from movement ST, that one generates some crazy points easily and needs to be brought down a notch.

My issue is that the new ST movement deck has bronzes that can completely carry a round, there's almost no need to play a gold card in R1 since if you drew your bronze combination you can get large amounts of points. Killing (or locking if you can) the Dol Blathana Sentry (but he can still have 2 of them) is imperative.

Dealing with the new movement based SC deck is pretty straightforward. It is a greedy engine deck, and all of their Rounds are very predictable:

Their general aim is to win R1, pass R2 and have the longest R3 possible.

R1: they usually try to play thinning and junk, including dwarves, potentially Waters, Vernossiel, N. Justice, and a few engines to boot. They will generally shy away using the more impactful units like Gezras or Gaetan, usually commit 1-2 Cat Witchers. Go all out if necessary, try to make them commit key cards. As soon as a Sentry appears, kill it (it takes priority over anything else except Adrenaline 4> Cat Witchers. If you win, they are mostly done for in R2.

R2: always bleed them, try to reduce the number of their cards - and thus, any potential for engine-based combos in R3. Be greedy - if there is a slight chance to beat them in R2, go for it. If R3 is unavoidable, keep one 5points removal at hand, and possibly one of your higher value pointslams.

R3: if they have ~4 cards, their chances for winning are already depleted. Try to kill the first engine they place on board, ideally a Sentry, and remember to position your units in the ranged row to minimize Gezras value.

 

[Pacifixer]

I love this expansion. So far, the only major problem i encountered was Salamander - should be nerfed to 10 prov to put it outside Renew range.

ST movement deck has bronzes that can completely carry a round

Well, that just puts ST on the same level as SK, MO and NR; but unlike bronzes from these 3 faction, ST bronzes can be removed simply by playing a 5 dmg special.

 

[DRK3]

Dealing with the new movement based SC deck is pretty straightforward. It is a greedy engine deck, and all of their Rounds are very predictable:

Their general aim is to win R1, pass R2 and have the longest R3 possible.

R1: they usually try to play thinning and junk, including dwarves, potentially Waters, Vernossiel, N. Justice, and a few engines to boot. They will generally shy away using the more impactful units like Gezras or Gaetan, usually commit 1-2 Cat Witchers. Go all out if necessary, try to make them commit key cards. As soon as a Sentry appears, kill it (it takes priority over anything else except Adrenaline 4> Cat Witchers. If you win, they are mostly done for in R2.

R2: always bleed them, try to reduce the number of their cards - and thus, any potential for engine-based combos in R3. Be greedy - if there is a slight chance to beat them in R2, go for it. If R3 is unavoidable, keep one 5points removal at hand, and possibly one of your higher value pointslams.

R3: if they have ~4 cards, their chances for winning are already depleted. Try to kill the first engine they place on board, ideally a Sentry, and remember to position your units in the ranged row to minimize Gezras value.

You've said pretty much everything, on how to beat ST movement. I just want to add a remark and a comment:

-you advised to keep a 5pt removal for R3... this can backfire easily, if the opponent has Guerrilla Tactics leader, he will probably use a charge, or use Call of Forest/ Isengrim Council to keep his engine out of 5 removal range

-the ST movement deck is a true engine deck, so it definitely benefits from longer rounds - its more similar to NR stockpile than anything else, in the sense that in a very short round it does very little, you can beat it even if you're 1 card down, because all of their powerful cards like Gezras and Gaitan are pitiful if there are only 1/2 units on each row.

They use Novigrad Justice and Vernossiel to have some pointslam plays and not be as easily bled, just like Stockpile sometimes uses Falibor and Phillipa for the same thing.

 

[Messyr]

I love this expansion. So far, the only major problem i encountered was Salamander - should be nerfed to 10 prov to put it outside Renew range.

I mean, for real mate?

That poor little guy doesn't see any serious play outside meme decks at this point - building up the setup required for it's fancy exodia is in itself a massive feat, let alone if the opponent has the slightest clue and disables 1 key piece before the Salamander hits the board. In short: perfect R1, perfect draws for R3, and even then, very unlikely to succeed. It will never get to competitive play, which is already a shame.

And you would further nerf this card by removing 1 of the very few options to even play it to some effect?

Why, just why?

 

[Pacifixer]

I mean, for real mate?

That poor little guy doesn't see any serious play outside meme decks at this point - building up the setup required for it's fancy exodia is in itself a massive feat, let alone if the opponent has the slightest clue and disables 1 key piece before the Salamander hits the board. In short: perfect R1, perfect draws for R3, and even then, very unlikely to succeed. It will never get to competitive play, which is already a shame.

And you would further nerf this card by removing 1 of the very few options to even play it to some effect?

Why, just why?

Difficult set-up? Wtf? You just play Abominations, Salamander and Renew; nothing else. All the other cards (Rayla, Kalkstein, etc.) are just a bonus.
This combo might not become meta, but it is insanely strong. Just like Arnaghad+Sukrus or Idarran+whatever. And unlike the other 2 combos, countering Salamander requires some very specific cards.

 

[quintivarium]

Difficult set-up? Wtf? You just play Abominations, Salamander and Renew; nothing else. All the other cards (Rayla, Kalkstein, etc.) are just a bonus.
This combo might not become meta, but it is insanely strong. Just like Arnaghad+Sukrus or Idarran+whatever. And unlike the other 2 combos, countering Salamander requires some very specific cards.

You also need to pay 9 tribute — twice. I could be naive on this, but from my very limited experience with SY, that is not trivial.

 

[Pacifixer]

You also need to pay 9 tribute — twice. I could be naive on this, but from my very limited experience with SY, that is not trivial.

That is actually the least problematic part. You play this combo with Off the Books and you will always have some salamandra units, so leader plus profit from Salamander are enough to pay the second Tribute. And even without Rayla, the coins you spend don't matter at all, because your opponent will be left with only 1 or 2 units and you will have your Abominations + Veiled units + whatever unit you used to poison Salamander.

 

[Guest 4375874]

Dealing with the new movement based SC deck is pretty straightforward. It is a greedy engine deck, and all of their Rounds are very predictable:

Their general aim is to win R1, pass R2 and have the longest R3 possible.

R1: they usually try to play thinning and junk, including dwarves, potentially Waters, Vernossiel, N. Justice, and a few engines to boot. They will generally shy away using the more impactful units like Gezras or Gaetan, usually commit 1-2 Cat Witchers. Go all out if necessary, try to make them commit key cards. As soon as a Sentry appears, kill it (it takes priority over anything else except Adrenaline 4> Cat Witchers. If you win, they are mostly done for in R2.

R2: always bleed them, try to reduce the number of their cards - and thus, any potential for engine-based combos in R3. Be greedy - if there is a slight chance to beat them in R2, go for it. If R3 is unavoidable, keep one 5points removal at hand, and possibly one of your higher value pointslams.

R3: if they have ~4 cards, their chances for winning are already depleted. Try to kill the first engine they place on board, ideally a Sentry, and remember to position your units in the ranged row to minimize Gezras value.

And you're missing the glaring issue. You have to specifically tech against this deck, then you have to tech against NR and NG and SK each requiring different tools. You can't counter every card and there are quite a few broken ones this expansion so you have to just play your own strategy and hope you have one of the decks that can generate more points.

Ordinarily I'd say that's a step forward, moving away from removal, but not unless each faction has cards on the same level and they just don't. As others have said, ST and in my opinion NR can carry a round with just bronze cards and not every faction can do that.

 

[Footsoulja]

That is actually the least problematic part. You play this combo with Off the Books and you will always have some salamandra units, so leader plus profit from Salamander are enough to pay the second Tribute. And even without Rayla, the coins you spend don't matter at all, because your opponent will be left with only 1 or 2 units and you will have your Abominations + Veiled units + whatever unit you used to poison Salamander.

I play a lot of SY and I challenge you to make a competitive deck with Salamander. The win condition is so small, you have to kill your own unit which takes a turn to even execute the Renew. Sorry but it's a meme deck.

 

[Kessman]

I don't like the fact that point-slamming reached a new level of dumbness.
Like wtf is that neutral card Leo which easily plays 15 for 7? Many faction cards would envy such value. It's just an example.

 

[ya1]

movement ST, that one generates some crazy points easily and needs to be brought down a notch.

Nah... ST engine overload is so easy to counter that it hurts. It's got no engine protection apart from Miners, no bronze tutors like AA, no bronze doublers like Adelia or Ulrich, etc. As long as you answer the Sentries and Gezras, you're good. And then there's Yrden which seems like it's designed to counter this deck. It's a meme deck, really. It's almost auto-forfeit vs. any decent control. And unless you win a round without the Sentries, Gay-tan and Gezzy (and Justice unless you got other things to swarm, I use the cowboy besides Justice, I've seen quite a lot of elf hybrids, too), and then draw both Sentries and all the golds for a long R3, some "solitaire" decks got even more points these days.

Also, even if you protect the Sentries, a number of moving engines can then be answered instead, potentially bricking the Senties. And that is provided they even draw the right combination of engines which doesn't always happen, and there's no AA to remedy that.

Most witcher decks this patch are rather memesey, I think. SK seems most viable, competitively. Once meta stabilizes and new control decks get optimized, ST movement will hardly manage to get a T3, mark me words. This is like like the double ball right after MM. It rocked because everyone was playing devotion and no one had Heatwave and Oneiro (yet).

The win condition is so small

Nailed it. This is the reason why I think the above.