Why combat need an overhaul

[Mobster100]

This is a video showing what I think is a huge problem with the CP combat and some of the tools you are given, and which pretty much makes enemies defenceless.

Im playing on Very hard difficulty and im currently level 33.

The Cyberware im using is one I have had for a very long time at this point, as it seems to be very good. Now what really makes it shine is that it allows "Ultimate quick hacks to spread once" and it reduces the cost by 3.

The quick hack I use is called system reset, as far as I can see there is nothing the enemies can do about it. Remember I can do this through cameras as well.

As it can be seen in the video these guys are some high level ones with the skulls on their head and I go down very fast when they shoot me (have around 1000 armor), yet they are just "instantly" killed, even the guards outside doesn't react to it. Which means I could do the exact same to them.

That to me is a huge problem, because I can do this from such a distance that even if Im spotted I can just run away or hide behind something, do it through the camera system and they are completely screwed. Only certain enemies like bosses etc are immune as far as I can see, the rest are toast to be honest. And as mentioned this is not something I just got, I think I have had it at least since level 18-20 or something. And could probably have gotten it before had I specced for intelligence earlier.

Even if I headshotted that guy with a sniper rifle, he probably wouldn't die and they could fight back, but in this case, its just game over for them. This really need to be balanced somehow. The same goes with some of the other weapons.

Compare it to when I shoot him with my assault rifle it hardly damage him. I don't really know how they are aiming to fix it, but something needs to be done at some point, if you ask me.

In my next playthrough I will definitely go with a full out shoot build with no smart or tech weapons, as I think that would make for a lot better experience.

What are your thoughts on how you have build your characters, since I really haven't gone deep in any damage things, Im almost full crafting and intelligence, so don't know how it works if you are full melee or guns?

 

[malikhis]

If doing something makes the game too easy for you, stop doing it. Don't ruin the game for other people just because you want the game to be harder for yourself. It's an RPG, the game is as hard or easy as you make it for yourself... we don't need every game ever to be a dark souls clone.

 

[Mobster100]

If doing something makes the game too easy for you, stop doing it. Don't ruin the game for other people just because you want the game to be harder for yourself. It's an RPG, the game is as hard or easy as you make it for yourself... we don't need every game ever to be a dark souls clone.

Well that is what I intend to do.

I do however not agree that it should be up to the players having to balance the mechanics in a game, and I doubt that the developers intention is that either. Because if you should follow that logic, they ought to not care about people cheating or exploiting things like copying items or what some people do. The same excuse could be used here, just telling people to not do it.

That is not to allow freedom or enhancing the game, that is to simply not care.

 

[WileyMarmot]

Yours is probably the 6th or 7th thread I've seen on this topic. While there is a fair bit of validity to the points you make (tiered weapons, attachments, cyber ware + stackable perks = OP character build); the fact remains we all pick and choose what we use, how we use it; so on and so forth. We can use as much as we want, or as little.

We're not rebalancing the game for the devs; we're rebalancing the game for us. Should anyone lack the self discipline to NOT use available kit, perks and such------that's not a developer problem.

 

[Jtemo]

If doing something makes the game too easy for you, stop doing it. Don't ruin the game for other people just because you want the game to be harder for yourself. It's an RPG, the game is as hard or easy as you make it for yourself... we don't need every game ever to be a dark souls clone.

What are you actually on about, can you not differentiate between difficulty and actual cheese?

'you removed this obviously broken thing so you must want it to be as difficult as dark souls'

good freaking lord what are you smoking.

 

[knox606]

For an RPG, Difficulty Settings needs to be a Well Rounded system to Match as many standards in combat as Possible sense it's an RPG. There's many Variables to be founded within the game if Players are given the Freedom to tackle the Combat how ever they want. To Tell people to "Hold Themselves Back" Because it's Too Easy is a Ridicules idea. It's not our Job to Limit our selves just because of some system is too easy to Abuse in combat. At that point than the Combat Difficulty is just Redundant and might as well be Removed if we have to do it's job for it.
This is something they should Tweak and Mess around with later down the line, other wise combat just gon be Mediocre at best. Boring and Repetitive where I have to be Limit myself to make it Challenging somehow.

 

[Mobster100]

Yours is probably the 6th or 7th thread I've seen on this topic. While there is a fair bit of validity to the points you make (tiered weapons, attachments, cyber ware + stackable perks = OP character build); the fact remains we all pick and choose what we use, how we use it; so on and so forth. We can use as much as we want, or as little.

We're not rebalancing the game for the devs; we're rebalancing the game for us. Should anyone lack the self discipline to NOT use available kit, perks and such------that's not a developer problem.

I really think you miss the point here, CP allows you to build a character of choice. Keep in mind that my character is 19 in crafting and 13-14 in intelligence, and a bit of random stuff if I recall correctly. Most of the game I played not using quick hacks except on cameras etc. But I could just as well have chosen that my character should have been a hacker from the very start and that it would be my way of playing. My point is, that combat doesn't really work or is fun for such a build if the way you can deal with enemies is simply to System reset them and they can't defend against it.

Enemies with skulls are suppose to be crazy enemies and they are if you actually have to fight them as I show in the video as well, I think they kill me in two hits. So its about making a system that works regardless of how players chose to make their characters, because currently a crafting build I would think is probably the worse you can do in regards to builds. And I imagine that a lot of people have made hackers as their main way of dealing with things, so the game should be able to support this type of playstyle and make it funny for them as well.

A hacker in CP is basically just a magic user. With the Ram being your mana pool and the quick hacks your spells.

 

[hulkman2456]

I do agree in some areas. For example: poor weapon RNG balance. It's very easy to find a 600 DPS Katana. Which than makes it very easy to down Sasquatch in the Placide mission.

 

[Mobster100]

I do agree in some areas. For example: poor weapon RNG balance. It's very easy to find a 600 DPS Katana. Which than makes it very easy to down Sasquatch in the Placide mission.

I haven't done a lot of melee, in fact I haven't even won the first boxing match yet But can you also just run in and chop down skull enemies with a melee build?

 

[ddz1rt]

There is system reset that puts them to sleep without any noise. Very crucial. There is suicide that kills enemy and alerts others. Same as system reset but lethal. And then there is cybephycosis. Which would act as suicide if target is alone or trigger it to fight npcs around. So if you are out of combat there are 3 valid ways for you to kill opponents without any investment into intelligence tree.

 

[hulkman2456]

I haven't done a lot of melee, in fact I haven't even won the first boxing match yet But can you also just run in and chop down skull enemies with a melee build?

Yeah. You don't need much. My build is like half Melee. I didn't even have Gorilla arms at the time I knocked out Sasquatch. I just had Strength maxed. With majority of the attributes unlocked.

 

[flippimonkey]

Yeah, it's all monkeys. I went through the whole game hacking with combat only when necessary. Then I got so OP I can just walk up and cut of 3 heads before they new what hit them. I have very few points put into any combat. Weapon stats take over at some point making perks redundant or just plain broken. Like do I need a cover bonus to damage or armor when I can one shot enemies standing 20 feet away from them. No, no I don't.

Enemy AI, well AI is a stretch, needs a serious overhaul. Stealth need a to be looked at as well. I put nothing into it but movement perk and I can slither my way into and out of any situation. Also an AI pursuit issue.

Combat in general needs to be rebalanced and overhauled. Unfortunately combat in games is rarely looked at like a puzzle. For instance if AI was good and combat was balanced, you could have stunned one guard, flash grenade the two out side, gun down the one guard left inside, ran slid to cover and pelted down the rest. All while the gaurds are reacting. Just one of what should be many possibilities. By the time I got to that mission I slipped in and out then came back later and cut them down.

I'd hate to say but many of the systems are beta quality at best. Fun because they are broken, but also not fun because they are broken.

 

[GrimReaper801]

Difficulty has never been CDPR's strong suit.

TW3 was a masterpiece but it was stupidly easy. Increasingly so if you bothered to try to maximize your damage output.

 

[strangerism]

I was looking forward to play a netrunner build in my second playthrough but now I am not so sure unless I limit myself. by not using certain quickhacks but it's a pity nonetheless. Hopefully something is done to fix this imbalance by the time I get to play it.

Said that, my first build is full reflex/pistols and full cool/cold blood with a bit of technician (no perks atm) to allow me to open paths and some stealth perks. I am using mostly power pistols and sniper rifle or precision rifles as second weapon plus the obligatory Katana. I have low intelligence, 5, and no perks with it. So I cannot do much with netrunning but I can use cover quick hacks that complements with the few stealth perks I have. This allows me in missions to always try with the stealth approach first, taking down enemies silently and manipulating the environment with the distraction quickhack, and when that fails I start shooting the hell out of there.

I made this build purposely, skipping the netrunning, because it would fit with the street kid lifepath better, not that really matter to be honest (shame thou). it's just to add some flavour and I like to set goals from the start when I play an rpg.

As if the game is harder this way, well it's kind of hard if you don't cheat much with sniper or spamming granades/health stim, because in a shootout enemies a short range can hit hard and 2/3 shot me at times. Enemy snipers also can one shot me if I am not at full health.

Sometime is nice also to just lay back chilling on some metal perch, above you the typical low motorway pass of a futuristic city, rain pouring down all around, sniping oblivious dumb tiger claws guarding their latest drug workshop. Reminisce of long long past days playing Deus Ex

 

[ottffss1]

For an action adventure set in 2077 the game's combat does come off as woefully generic. After doing maybe 10 NCPD side gigs, the other 90 or so side gigs will be pretty much the same thing over and over, you're not missing much.
The locations and set-pieces are cool: but the problem is that in the end perceptually to the player they become bland because you have generic enemies doing the same dumb s*** against you: it does not matter what faction those enemies are, they use generic and uninteristing gun or melee weapons and no real special tailored attacks or abilities or attacks over and over and bam, any type of realism is ruined because of that.

 

[Mobster100]

I was looking forward to play a netrunner build in my second playthrough but now I am not so sure unless I limit myself. by not using certain quickhacks but it's a pity nonetheless. Hopefully something is done to fix this imbalance by the time I get to play it.

Said that, my first build is full reflex/pistols and full cool/cold blood with a bit of technician (no perks atm) to allow me to open paths and some stealth perks. I am using mostly power pistols and sniper rifle or precision rifles as second weapon plus the obligatory Katana. I have low intelligence, 5, and no perks with it. So I cannot do much with netrunning but I can use cover quick hacks that complements with the few stealth perks I have. This allows me in missions to always try with the stealth approach first, taking down enemies silently and manipulating the environment with the distraction quickhack, and when that fails I start shooting the hell out of there.

I made this build purposely, skipping the netrunning, because it would fit with the street kid lifepath better, not that really matter to be honest (shame thou). it's just to add some flavour and I like to set goals from the start when I play an rpg.

As if the game is harder this way, well it's kind of hard if you don't cheat much with sniper or spamming granades/health stim, because in a shootout enemies a short range can hit hard and 2/3 shot me at times. Enemy snipers also can one shot me if I am not at full health.

Sometime is nice also to just lay back chilling on some metal perch, above you the typical low motorway pass of a futuristic city, rain pouring down all around, sniping oblivious dumb tiger claws guarding their latest drug workshop. Reminisce of long long past days playing Deus Ex

You can still have fun as a hacker I think, but I think eventually one gets bored of it, because it's simply too easy. At least stealth you have to get in there, here you just need access to the cameras and most locations have lots of them. So you will have to constrain yourself at some point.

 

[warbaby2]

Difficulty has never been CDPR's strong suit.

TW3 was a masterpiece but it was stupidly easy. Increasingly so if you bothered to try to maximize your damage output.

True, and Geralt was a rather limited character... in a game where you can be a everthing from a literal close combat tank to a hacking wizard, difficulty balance is even harder to get right.

That being said: It would be possible, that would not only need combat and AI tweaking, but a complete system overhaul... from stats and perks to crafting and loot.

 

[strangerism]

Yours is probably the 6th or 7th thread I've seen on this topic. While there is a fair bit of validity to the points you make (tiered weapons, attachments, cyber ware + stackable perks = OP character build); the fact remains we all pick and choose what we use, how we use it; so on and so forth. We can use as much as we want, or as little.

We're not rebalancing the game for the devs; we're rebalancing the game for us. Should anyone lack the self discipline to NOT use available kit, perks and such------that's not a developer problem.

sorry if I disagree with you but in this case he is talking about a powerful skill, an ultimate that has no risks attached as far I can see. Normally in this kind of game a powerful skill has risks and rewards by which the choice to use it's weighted against some odds. If for example the penalty would be a long cool down, then using it to kill the first enemy you see might carry the risk of not having the skill ready in case you find yourself in a shitty situation later on. You can go by instinct and risk it or be more tactical about it, both ways are valid and have their payoff.

I just think it's more fun to play a game this way than rather constantly policing yourself in order to not use god modes at the first convenience.

 

[Mobster100]

For an action adventure set in 2077 the game's combat does come off as woefully generic. After doing maybe 10 NCPD side gigs, the other 90 or so side gigs will be pretty much the same thing over and over, you're not missing much.
The locations and set-pieces are cool: but the problem is that in the end perceptually to the player they become bland because you have generic enemies doing the same dumb s*** against you: it does not matter what faction those enemies are, they use generic and uninteristing gun or melee weapons and no real special tailored attacks or abilities or attacks over and over and bam, any type of realism is ruined because of that.

This is an issue in all games, I actually think CP does it better simply because locations are so different. The problem as I see it, is that the combat system as many other things now, doesn't really seem to have been fully tested of how it works early games vs late game.

Also I don't think the ping system that let you see everything is a good idea. Because if you are spotted, a lot of enemies will try to hide behind cover, but it doesn't really help if you can still hack them or just use a tech weapon. The enemies behave as they would in a game where these things weren't possible. But in the CP universe this is very normal with the gear that is available.

The combat would be a lot more interesting in my opinion, if you couldn't mark enemies either, not sure if you can turn that off completely. Also turning off the minimap when on missions make them a lot more interesting, that is obviously a personal choice.

Furthermore, you shouldn't be able to hack enemies through cameras either or at least they should have some sort of resistance, which could be revealed to you by breaching them. And if you failed you hack, they should be alerted and make the other enemies aware of something going on and they should start searching the area much more seriously than they currently are. Also failing a hack should increase their resistances for a period of time, so you can't just keep spamming hacks on them. I don't know, but something needs to be changed as I see it.

Post automatically merged: Dec 23, 2020

sorry if I disagree with you but in this case he is talking about a powerful skill, an ultimate that has no risks attached as far I can see. Normally in this kind of game a powerful skill has risks and rewards by which the choice to use it's weighted against some odds. If for example the penalty would be a long cool down, then using it to kill the first enemy you see might carry the risk of not having the skill ready in case you find yourself in a shitty situation later on. You can go by instinct and risk it or be more tactical about it, both ways are valid and have their payoff.

I just think it's more fun to play a game this way than rather constantly policing yourself in order to not use god modes at the first convenience.

It does normally have 120 sec cool down, but mine with perks and that Cyberware im using, which I bought in a shop, it's just below 30 seconds. And again, If you had actually gone Nethacking which I have only partly done, you can get it a lot lower from what I can see.

 

[Shriex]

Question: is mass killing in this manner fun at least? Or is it such a quick process that there's not even the glee of being an overpowered murder machine?