Another Romance Thread [Spoilers]

[wright1978]

I personally think it would have been preferrable if all romances had of been open to everyone, just from a roleplaying perspective in giving choice. Panam is a great character and gorgeous too and fortunately I picked Nomad for my male V in which the romance makes sense to me. I can't really see me playing male streetkid/corpo lifepath without a hetro city romance option.
Love Judy, and don't expect them to change the preferences now and will roll a female V next to experience it.

I'd very much like to see additional missions/interactions with love interests added via DLC/expansions to expand on the romances.

 

[DJSaintDJ]

Ow boy... did I get myself in trouble with Judy...

She looks like someone from my past - deeply close to me. Her personality is typical Artemis archetype that I naturally have a bond with and bump into my whole life. So, when character so life-like visually and in essence, your mind fills in gaps and makes her real. If that is not magic of the art, than not much else is. So. I fell for the magic... too far. Like we do in real life, I made a mistake of getting attached to someone who will clearly not be interested in my character, no matter what - if of course writers will stay firm on their beliefs and ideas, and not try to please everyone. I got carried away and paid for it. I actually felt a bit heartbroken for two days, because a little dream was shattered. My character was rejected in a very realistic way. Moreover, with absence of further interaction with her, it feels like we said good bye and then she died. So there is a problem... There is simply not enough of story with her and absolutely no proper conclusion.

Idea! Let's rescue our dear damsel in distress - few times! Let's build up the bond properly, intensely! There needs to be serious on the edge of a blade drama! This is an adult game after all. Bottom line, in case of Judy there is so much potential that if CD Project brings in a true thrill in a fight for her life and a big chance of her actually dying... then she might just become one of the most iconic, believable and sympathetic characters in gaming industry! Marriage between character visual design, voice acting and created personality is just so realistic that it will be a shame not to push it to the limits.

I hope this comment was constructive enough.

 

[Trinixy]

Ow boy... did I get myself in trouble with Judy...

She looks like someone from my past - deeply close to me. Her personality is typical Artemis archetype that I naturally have a bond with and bump into my whole life. So, when character so life-like visually and in essence, your mind fills in gaps and makes her real. If that is not magic of the art, than not much else is. So. I fell for the magic... too far. Like we do in real life, I made a mistake of getting attached to someone who will clearly not be interested in my character, no matter what - if of course writers will stay firm on their beliefs and ideas, and not try to please everyone. I got carried away and paid for it. I actually felt a bit heartbroken for two days, because a little dream was shattered. My character was rejected in a very realistic way. Moreover, with absence of further interaction with her, it feels like we said good bye and then she died. So there is a problem... There is simply not enough of story with her and absolutely no proper conclusion.

Idea! Let's rescue our dear damsel in distress - few times! Let's build up the bond properly, intensely! There needs to be serious on the edge of a blade drama! This is an adult game after all. Bottom line, in case of Judy there is so much potential that if CD Project brings in a true thrill in a fight for her life and a big chance of her actually dying... then she might just become one of the most iconic, believable and sympathetic characters in gaming industry! Marriage between character visual design, voice acting and created personality is just so realistic that it will be a shame not to push it to the limits.

I hope this comment was constructive enough.

Couldn't agree more with you. Hits home for many of us what you said.

It would be downright irresponsible to leave it the way it is now, not even bare bones because it defies logic how these characters end up after the first intimate night. To have the relationship end when it officially starts with them sidelined when they essentially become for most of us the most important person in NC? To me that is in terms of character development and immersion, game breaking as much as random T-poses. And while you are this merc that wishes to become a legend, wishes to just stay alive, this relationship seems like maybe the best reason to outgrow that first initial motivation for your journey in NC in terms of V's development.

As you said there is undeniable potential to make it truly stand out amongst anything else in gaming space, since only a video game can make you really feel the way you do now due to your input. It would be a shame not to give it more life overall. And while we will all enjoy good gameplay it will only really serve as fun labor to get us where we want to be with these characters which truly give us motivation to go on at all. If I knew that the only reward I am looking forward to are variations of weapons/gear and higher numbers I wouldn't feel half as motivated as I do when Judy gives me a call.
Everything that happens to V in this game that will be of any lasting value to you will be because of the characters that surround you and interact with you. Blowing up heads and severing limbs only goes so far. Seeing how much love and care CDPR gives to these characters, it is kind of a shock to have them just leave it hanging this way in terms of relationships/friendships with characters.

I noticed there is this looming fear in some people that asking for what we do here somehow turns this game entirely into a dating simulator. Mind you the game already is trying to be many things: open world adventure, action RPG, looter shooter, stealth, detective racing game? Ashtray/cards hoarding game? So somehow romances would take away from gameplay in some peoples eyes. While they can be a powerful undercurrent that gives all the action purpose and drive, no one can deny that without gameplay they would be equally as satisfying to follow tru. The opposite you will notice in the comments that say something along the lines of: All the side gigs and quests feel shallow and repetitive, they are enclosed in their own boxes, they feel like a check list. Going tru the motions check list that leads to higher levels and higher numbers with the only driving factor being gameplay.

So please keep pushing for the right rewards as you did now. Rewards that will last and stay with us even when we turn off the game. If we wanna throw in the term Art, that is what I feel gets us there.

 

[DJSaintDJ]

Couldn't agree more with you. Hits home for many of us what you said.

It would be downright irresponsible to...

Thank you, Trinixy! I sign under your thoughts as well.

My V is a male. And this is what I am left with... SPOILERS!!!... Just built up friendship after all the missions; got a little bit closer. A romantic dive together, eye-staring and awkwardly joking. I am hooked! No physical intimacy the night after that? Fine. Not even a kiss after everything? Sucks, unrealistic, but still fine. Yes, even if she is not into men, after all that was done for her, a kiss is more than logical. Fine, on a cheek!!! )) She does not even hug him!

Big character development issue: Judy is portrayed as a very caring and kind person, even if a bit anti-social - as she says herself. But when V falls unconscious once, twice... She does not worry at all. She is a hacker and has access to serious intel. There could have been a whole chapter about her getting you new information and missions, trying to help you the best way she can. Internal struggle, emotions, BONDING! How awesome this could be!!!

Instead, she rejects you completely and right next morning says "Well that is all!". And, what is a complete kick below the waste, when you call her afterwards, she tells you that there has been a shootout in Japanese district and asks if you had anything to do with it.. in a way, which clearly shows that she already knows the answer. There is no bond what so ever, even in the end! You are clearly still only a mercenary, a cold-blooded killer to her.

P.S.: Below via link, you will find some of my constructive ideas about story and romance/bond development. What is your take on these subjects?

...CONTINUING...

Sorry for intermission.

I could not agree with you more! Personal motivation is the key! And, it has to be emotional and very very personal! Simple scoring on some leaderboard will not do.

If it becomes a source of long-lasting wonderful memories and perhaps source of some common wisdom, then we will be able to call it Art. ;-)

Story Development Ideas... Brainstorming Together!

1) It would be great if depending on circumstances, some enemies that flee from battle or get incapacitated would get vengeful and try to assassin you in any place at any time - even during day and surrounded by crowd (try to defend yourself without hurting civilians). 2) Remember Judy humming...

forums.cdprojektred.com

 

[hulkman2456]

but if you objectively compare her romance to others, hers was WAY more integrated into the game and the quests. There are at least half a dozen opportunities to flirt with her and be lewd or romantic with her, whereas all of the other options get one chance to flirt at the very end of their questline.

There's several points to flirt with River. And even agree, cock block, agree, cock block him right up to the sex scene. Panam is the longest. But you can ignore all of them if you want. Judy's, for example. I was a total asshole to her. So I ignored her.

but at best I get bro vibes from him; like a fun rocker friend to hang around with. I feel absolutely zero chemistry between him and V

Because that's the lack of develop done with him. His story can easily be triggered after you beat the game. So it made him even more pointless.

 

[Tych_o_godgamer]

yes more judy

 

[Krul2k]

Ok....Sigh, here goes

Why is Judys "romance" soo better? Is it maybe simply because thats your preference and nothing more? Panams is bad? Again because of your preference and nothing more?

I'll go a different route and show something else, Panam leaves her clan why?? Because she cant stand by and watch then die a slow death, noone at the point of V entering her life is willing to lift a finger to help her, Saul has all his lackeys ih the Aldecaldo camp backing him up and you see even mitch and scorp wont raise a hand to help panam, so noone has her back so to speak in the verbal confrontations.

She's depicted as strong and independent, has the planning capacity of some of the best fixers in Night city ontop of the only character who when told of V's condition gets to action straight away on a course of action to save them, as she did for Saul, as she would for any member of her family.

Toxic?? Dumb?? Incapable of thinking about consequences?? Jesus have we been playing the same game?? Did you do Judys missions?? There dumb, thoughtless and self serving, V nigh has to apologise for every action they take and is completely thrown away and deleted out of contacts if the one thing they do saves both tom and roxy (think thats her name), not once did i need to explain or say sorry about my actions to Panam, at every turn Panam tries to help me, at every turn she tries to help her clan, at every turn she tries to get you to join said clan and you say shes incapable, toxic and dumb and point to a character who does nothing but put her needs, her wants and her selfish and ultimately dumb plan onto V while offering absolutely zero thoughts on V's problem even though shes one of the best damn tech's in the city dealing with software and brains ffs (she might have the dolls interests but her plan sucks)

I could go on an on but im not going to, regardless of faults i like both characters and believe both are, at present, totally underdeveloped but still good in there own way

 

[Obstructionist]

For once in a video game history, let us lesbians have a nice romance only for us.

Meh. Maybe future content will add some better options.

If they intend to stick to their guns on this I just hope they don't waste time adding onto the existing romances with DLC/xpacs. Lets just move past it and add some new romances that give players more choices.

 

[Yllana_Ardais]

It's really a matter of personal preference and it doesn't even have anything to do with romance, it's just who you happen to like better as a person.
I think Judy's quest to liberate Clouds isn't well thought out from her side and she should have known from the very beginning that the Tyger Claws wouldn't take the takeover lying down. She should have at least gotten the Mox on board. So this was pretty dumb from her. On the other hand, I like her pesonally, I find her job and the way she approaches it fascinating. I also really like her character design.
Panam on the other hand I find pretty dull and my V constantly rejected her efforts to recruit him, because the Nomad live is just not his style. If I had to choose between who of the two I would like to have as my friend, I'd definitely chose Judy. Again personal preference.

Can we just agreee that all four romances need to be expanded and that more romance options would have been nice?

 

[Droladya]

...God, Am I the only one that only argree the expand part and totally think different at other part?
Judy is the one who childish and Panam is much wise, Kerry romance is not bad.

Judy is petty and frailty, she lose everything at Night City after Evelyn's suicide and Cloud has been butchered. And her choice is escape, admit her failure.
Think about what she do at game, think about the choice.
Judy suggest Evelyn back to work, which finally kill her. She admit this shit after we talk with Finger, that's why she blamed the death of Evelyn to herself.
That's also the reason why Judy is irascible at talking with Finger, and she hope you to beat Finger. But he is not a big bad guy. Yes he looks disgusting, but if you read the chips about him, you will realized he may the only ripper who will fix the dolls in any cases. That's why Woodman sent Evelyn to him, and you even need to waiting for talking. Finger is busy to fix the dolls, and he accept credit, he is the only haven for sick dolls. And you will beat him just to joy Judy, which she just want to transfer her guilt.
Then at the story arc of Cloud. Judy invent a Killer-Doll Program which can transfer a doll club to a killer army. AND SHE FORGET WHY THEY BUILD MOX! She delet the program after control the Cloud, not make it as a weapon to empower the dolls and get the responsibility to lead them. That cause the Cloud fated to be doomed. Let Maiko do what she want, Cloud will be saved but nothing change, Stop Maiko can win temporarily, but how to defeat the revenge of Tyger Claws?
Judy never think about these questions, she just want to win temporarily. She want to change the world better, but she also fear to get the responsibility. That's we called childish. And that's why she can't live at NC, it's too cold and real. Only if Judy understand Suzie, the leader of Moxes, can make her get what she want. But that's pure golden heart also a part of her charm.

Panam is totally different, she looks wild, rude, unhappy for everything, but she is the girl who really breave responsible powerful smart and far-sighted. We have many mission with her, at first we ambush and revenge Nash, then the kidnapped of Hellman, after that we save Saul and improve her relationship of Aldecaldos, and in some ending she finally became the leader of Aldecaldos.
Look at her choice at mission. In Hellman mission, She make a daring plan to create a EMP to shutdown the air car. That's a good idea, you will be shock about it, that's means she's really smart. Of course there is risky, but we are work for the mission impossible, face the risk and beat it, that's we called breave. After EMP worked, the air car has broken but still flying, Panam take out a Bazooka to shoot it down. Yes it's rude, but also an effect Plan B, the fallen of air car prove that, and that's we called far-sighted.
I'm no doubt she will be a good leader, so as Aldecaldos, she have the quality.

And about Kerry... I'm not a gay but I think he is far from the word bad.
I know he is old, but age is not such important at CP world, Rouge is still hot for me. She is also aged but we all know people at CP can change their face whatever they want.
Bro vibes is beacuse you start the story with him as the revived silverhand. And obviously Johnney know Kerry, I guess even know Kerry's unrequited love. And in the most of the arc, you are the shadow of Johnney, until you decide to come out.
Actually, the boat part is excellent, maybe the best part of all romance, you can feel the relax, free the beast inside.
I guess you might just don't like Kerry.

 

[RomireOnline]

Found Panam quite lovley for a character honestly

 

[cergyn]

And about Kerry... I'm not a gay but I think he is far from the word bad.
I know he is old, but age is not such important at CP world, Rouge is still hot for me. She is also aged but we all know people at CP can change their face whatever they want.
Bro vibes is beacuse you start the story with him as the revived silverhand. And obviously Johnney know Kerry, I guess even know Kerry's unrequited love. And in the most of the arc, you are the shadow of Johnney, until you decide to come out.
Actually, the boat part is excellent, maybe the best part of all romance, you can feel the relax, free the beast inside.
I guess you might just don't like Kerry.

So you did not romance him. As a friend path it's okay, but as romance there is zero build up, you can't even flirt with him it's just kiss in one scene and sex on yacht, and after that instead of relationship he just ask more sex. There actually more romantic interactions with River for male V in his quest, although he is straight, than in whole romance with Kerry.

 

[0nakita]

I hope in some of DLC will be more of River.

 

[Guest 4528007]

i thought kerry would be bi, idk why but i do.

 

[TLeining]

...God, Am I the only one that only argree the expand part and totally think different at other part?
Judy is the one who childish and Panam is much wise, Kerry romance is not bad.

Judy is petty and frailty, she lose everything at Night City after Evelyn's suicide and Cloud has been butchered. And her choice is escape, admit her failure.
Think about what she do at game, think about the choice.
Judy suggest Evelyn back to work, which finally kill her. She admit this shit after we talk with Finger, that's why she blamed the death of Evelyn to herself.
That's also the reason why Judy is irascible at talking with Finger, and she hope you to beat Finger. But he is not a big bad guy. Yes he looks disgusting, but if you read the chips about him, you will realized he may the only ripper who will fix the dolls in any cases. That's why Woodman sent Evelyn to him, and you even need to waiting for talking. Finger is busy to fix the dolls, and he accept credit, he is the only haven for sick dolls. And you will beat him just to joy Judy, which she just want to transfer her guilt.
Then at the story arc of Cloud. Judy invent a Killer-Doll Program which can transfer a doll club to a killer army. AND SHE FORGET WHY THEY BUILD MOX! She delet the program after control the Cloud, not make it as a weapon to empower the dolls and get the responsibility to lead them. That cause the Cloud fated to be doomed. Let Maiko do what she want, Cloud will be saved but nothing change, Stop Maiko can win temporarily, but how to defeat the revenge of Tyger Claws?
Judy never think about these questions, she just want to win temporarily. She want to change the world better, but she also fear to get the responsibility. That's we called childish. And that's why she can't live at NC, it's too cold and real. Only if Judy understand Suzie, the leader of Moxes, can make her get what she want. But that's pure golden heart also a part of her charm.
(...)

Did we play the same game?
Judy didn't suggest for Evelyn to go back to Clouds, she just didn't stop her. Going back was Evelyn's idea and choice.
Did you miss the part where Finger was groping/raping the women he worked on? Yeah, he didn't take their money, great guy -_-
Leaving the Killer Doll program intact would have caused problems. First it would have made the Dolls a power themselves, the other gangs and Corps wouldn't allow that to exist. In addition, if anyone becomes aware how easy it is to reprogram the dolls, everyone would do it, the Dolls would lose.
Judy also doesn't want to be in charge, but create a community that will rule itself (democracy?). That's why she asks the Dolls to fight for themselves. Just like the Moxes have done.

The reason why Judy left is because Night City is a city of lies. Viktor realized that and adjusted his life accordingly. Judy wants stability, a family, people to rely on. Is that childish?

So Judy is childish for accomplishing her goal of taking Clouds from the Claws with a crazy Killer-Doll plan that backfires. But Panam is wise for accomplishing her goal of taking down an AV with a crazy plan that backfires.

 

[Droladya]

Did we play the same game?
Judy didn't suggest for Evelyn to go back to Clouds, she just didn't stop her. Going back was Evelyn's idea and choice.
Did you miss the part where Finger was groping/raping the women he worked on? Yeah, he didn't take their money, great guy -_-
Leaving the Killer Doll program intact would have caused problems. First it would have made the Dolls a power themselves, the other gangs and Corps wouldn't allow that to exist. In addition, if anyone becomes aware how easy it is to reprogram the dolls, everyone would do it, the Dolls would lose.
Judy also doesn't want to be in charge, but create a community that will rule itself (democracy?). That's why she asks the Dolls to fight for themselves. Just like the Moxes have done.

The reason why Judy left is because Night City is a city of lies. Viktor realized that and adjusted his life accordingly. Judy wants stability, a family, people to rely on. Is that childish?

So Judy is childish for accomplishing her goal of taking Clouds from the Claws with a crazy Killer-Doll plan that backfires. But Panam is wise for accomplishing her goal of taking down an AV with a crazy plan that backfires.

Yes we play the same game, but obviously have different perspectives.
Night City is not a kind place, not only lies, but cruel and real.
The people live there are not simple human, but a monster.
Organ trading, murder, drugs, countless evil, Night City lose 30% population a year.
Sex crime is a light one, even would not be count as a crime.
Yes Finger is definitely sucked, but he is the less evil. And there is only less evil and big evil at NC.
To find a good guy? Have you realized most of the good guys you know suffered?
BTW, does V really know a guy who is totally clean and good?
First of all, V and Jackie are criminal, Jackie die at a robbery.
Shall I going on?

Yes, Leaving the Killer Doll program intact would have caused problems.
And that's we called responsibility. If there is no any risk, no bad ending waiting, everyone can be a hero.
Face the risk, know the doll's future is on your hand, and use the power to create the future you need.
The dolls give you trust to control Cloud, that's means give their life and future to you.
And Judy just says, dolls will take care of themselves and remove their weapon.
How can they protect themselves with no weapons? By say you can do it?
Mox do it because they fight at beginning and win without the special weapon like Killer Doll program.

If you don't want to be in charge, leave power as far as you can. Because it's a dangerous fire.
BTW, Find Democracy at Night City without weapon? Are Claws looks like someone would listen the theory of great democracy and trust it?

You can't only judge the things by result. Judy is childish because she can't see the real world and understand how to make things right. The good hope she want is an illusion from the start.
And I will say it again, that's pure golden heart also a part of her charm. I'm no doubt that many people will be touched. That's proof of CDPR complete this charactor well. If there is something piss me off, that's CDPR refuse to let V to control Cloud, which is a resonable way to keep it safe and better, at least the time in game.

 

[Yllana_Ardais]

I like Kerry, I also like how his romance arc feels like the beginning of something, like he and V might develop feelings for each other after they had fun together. The problem is nothing comes after that, so it feels hollow.

 

[TLeining]

"The people live there are not simple human, but a monster."

Humans can be monsters. Being a monster does not stop people from being human.


"Sex crime is a light one, even would not be count as a crime."

O_O what?


"Yes Finger is definitely sucked, but he is the less evil. And there is only less evil and big evil at NC.
To find a good guy? Have you realized most of the good guys you know suffered?"

So there is only less evil and big evil, and most of the good guys suffered. But they still exist. Like Viktor? Who treats V for free.


"BTW, does V really know a guy who is totally clean and good?"

Why would a good guy be totally clean and good?


"Yes, Leaving the Killer Doll program intact would have caused problems.
And that's we called responsibility. If there is no any risk, no bad ending waiting, everyone can be a hero."

*headdesk*
Judy had two options, leave the program in place or remove it. Both choices come with potential problems and consequences. Both choices have risks. You claim that one choice is mature, the other childish. Based on nothing. That's not a perspective. It's a concept explored in Cyberpunk (the genre). What if there are no right choices? You make your choice and live with the consequences. Judy did. You claim that makes her childish.


"Face the risk, know the doll's future is on your hand, and use the power to create the future you need."

OR: Try to give the dolls the power to take control themselves. That's exactly the point. Judy doesn't want to be in charge, she wants the community to work together. Which is just what Panam wants, what the Nomads are all about.


"The dolls give you trust to control Cloud, that's means give their life and future to you."

No. They agreed to a plan where they would control Clouds. Maiko goes against that plan.


"Mox do it because they fight at beginning and win without the special weapon like Killer Doll program."

YES!!!!!
That's the difference. The thing that Maiko is talking about. The thing that Judy warns Evelyn about. No shortcuts, they bite you in the ass.
Judy was desperate to help the other dolls after she couldn't help Evelyn. So she came up with a crazy plan (shortcut) to give the dolls their freedom, expecting them to imitate the Moxes and fight for themselves.
Maiko knows that this won't work and goes against the plan.


"BTW, Find Democracy at Night City without weapon? Are Claws looks like someone would listen the theory of great democracy and trust it?"

Seriously, yes. That's my point. Judy is desperate, her plan is not fully thought out. That doesn't make her childish, but idealistic. Which is where V and Maiko step in and can modify the plan.


"You can't only judge the things by result. Judy is childish because she can't see the real world and understand how to make things right. The good hope she want is an illusion from the start."

And there Judy is exactly like Panam.
Panam brings the transport down, not anticipating the reaction that action will cause with the other Nomads. Which leads to the death of Scorpion and others. She naively ignored them.
Freeing Saul from the Scavs resulted in them attacking the camp. Saul warned her about that. She naively thought that they would be too scared to do it.
My problem is that you portray Judy as childish, but Panam as wise and mature. When that aspect of their personality is exactly the same. They do what they can to help their friends/family, hoping that everything will work out in the end.


"And I will say it again, that's pure golden heart also a part of her charm. I'm no doubt that many people will be touched. That's proof of CDPR complete this charactor well."

Yeah, it's a character flaw. Doesn't make her a bad person, does it?


"If there is something piss me off, that's CDPR refuse to let V to control Cloud, which is a resonable way to keep it safe and better, at least the time in game."

How is that any different from what we've got in the game? Instead of Maiko controlling Clouds, it would be V.
And the moment V is off doing something else, Claws will take back control.

BTW: I repeat my question, why do you think that Judy send Evelyn back to Clouds?

 

[DJSaintDJ]

Ok....Sigh, here goes...

I agree with you. The game is still in its early stage and needs lots of further development - story and characters.

Judy saw V fall unconscious twice and still did not ask for details and help in any way. Even though she is presented to us as a very caring, grateful and kind person. Her character and our relationship with her need more development, absolutely!

Post automatically merged: Jan 7, 2021

It's really a matter of personal preference...

Can we just agreee that all four romances need to be expanded and that more romance options would have been nice?

I agree with you on every point! Relationships and characters need further development! And, it is all the matter of personal preference. There should be no sex-related relationship-blockers. If a player was not warned by developers about it and invested over 100hrs creating their personal fantasy life, they should be awarded just like everyone else with the relationship of their choice. Not to mention that they paid the same amount of hard-earned money for the game and deserve just as much satisfaction as everyone else!

Sorry, I took your idea to a different direction there.

 

[Droladya]

"The people live there are not simple human, but a monster."

Humans can be monsters. Being a monster does not stop people from being human.


"Sex crime is a light one, even would not be count as a crime."

O_O what?


"Yes Finger is definitely sucked, but he is the less evil. And there is only less evil and big evil at NC.
To find a good guy? Have you realized most of the good guys you know suffered?"

So there is only less evil and big evil, and most of the good guys suffered. But they still exist. Like Viktor? Who treats V for free.


"BTW, does V really know a guy who is totally clean and good?"

Why would a good guy be totally clean and good?


"Yes, Leaving the Killer Doll program intact would have caused problems.
And that's we called responsibility. If there is no any risk, no bad ending waiting, everyone can be a hero."

*headdesk*
Judy had two options, leave the program in place or remove it. Both choices come with potential problems and consequences. Both choices have risks. You claim that one choice is mature, the other childish. Based on nothing. That's not a perspective. It's a concept explored in Cyberpunk (the genre). What if there are no right choices? You make your choice and live with the consequences. Judy did. You claim that makes her childish.


"Face the risk, know the doll's future is on your hand, and use the power to create the future you need."

OR: Try to give the dolls the power to take control themselves. That's exactly the point. Judy doesn't want to be in charge, she wants the community to work together. Which is just what Panam wants, what the Nomads are all about.


"The dolls give you trust to control Cloud, that's means give their life and future to you."

No. They agreed to a plan where they would control Clouds. Maiko goes against that plan.


"Mox do it because they fight at beginning and win without the special weapon like Killer Doll program."

YES!!!!!
That's the difference. The thing that Maiko is talking about. The thing that Judy warns Evelyn about. No shortcuts, they bite you in the ass.
Judy was desperate to help the other dolls after she couldn't help Evelyn. So she came up with a crazy plan (shortcut) to give the dolls their freedom, expecting them to imitate the Moxes and fight for themselves.
Maiko knows that this won't work and goes against the plan.


"BTW, Find Democracy at Night City without weapon? Are Claws looks like someone would listen the theory of great democracy and trust it?"

Seriously, yes. That's my point. Judy is desperate, her plan is not fully thought out. That doesn't make her childish, but idealistic. Which is where V and Maiko step in and can modify the plan.


"You can't only judge the things by result. Judy is childish because she can't see the real world and understand how to make things right. The good hope she want is an illusion from the start."

And there Judy is exactly like Panam.
Panam brings the transport down, not anticipating the reaction that action will cause with the other Nomads. Which leads to the death of Scorpion and others. She naively ignored them.
Freeing Saul from the Scavs resulted in them attacking the camp. Saul warned her about that. She naively thought that they would be too scared to do it.
My problem is that you portray Judy as childish, but Panam as wise and mature. When that aspect of their personality is exactly the same. They do what they can to help their friends/family, hoping that everything will work out in the end.


"And I will say it again, that's pure golden heart also a part of her charm. I'm no doubt that many people will be touched. That's proof of CDPR complete this charactor well."

Yeah, it's a character flaw. Doesn't make her a bad person, does it?


"If there is something piss me off, that's CDPR refuse to let V to control Cloud, which is a resonable way to keep it safe and better, at least the time in game."

How is that any different from what we've got in the game? Instead of Maiko controlling Clouds, it would be V.
And the moment V is off doing something else, Claws will take back control.

BTW: I repeat my question, why do you think that Judy send Evelyn back to Clouds?

So gald to see you to question the word one by one.
I think Judy give a sugesstion because the word she said, I recall the dialog and realized there is the various interpretations, so I don't want to argue with you about the fact affirm, It's meanless. We can accuse each other blind, and so what? Did it change the core point of why Judy childish? She didn't stop her can change the reality that she felt guilt for that?
No, you want to catch that because you just want to prove the proof wrong, but it is not a proof.
The word you troll is strong aggressive, and I'm competed comfirm you watched evreyword I said, but refused to understand what it means. You troll everyword to fake you are convincing but forget the true meaning of them.
That's why you can't get a strong point and good theory.
The only thing you care is win the argue now.
And I won't argue with the guys who childish like that.
Have a good day.