Just started Fallout 4, What CP could have learned

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Well, whether one considers the plot or general game of FO4 bad or not: While the FO4 plot wasn't maybe the subjectively best for many, it allows you to "stop" at one point. You get some sort of closure compared to your initial goals after leaving the vault. Depending on your choices and how you react to it both as player or from some "roleplaying perspective", it gives you a moment of a break, sorta.

Especially in my pro-Institute first game.

So the argument "I need to find my kid but screw it, let me build a town" is slightly moot or baseless because you could play a bit, find closure and then do the rest. Cyberpunk kind of does it the other way around and more radical: Up until the heist you seem locked in Watson if I recall right and cannot enjoy the world as a whole. But you in theory have all the time in the world. Then things go sour and by that point you have this forced plot urgency, while ironically the world opens up at the same time.

And it's forcing you to focus on your own survival as part of the storytelling and plot. In FO4 you have a choice right from the start: Becoming disillusioned in this apocalyptic setting and just writing off your kid as being lost - if you want to. Might bar you from some factions by not following the trail of course. Just like you in theory never have to do the Minutemen thing.

There is a certain freedom to the narrative. Right from the moment you leave the vault or, if you want to be more nitpicky, then at least in mid-game when you get some closure as to your children's whereabouts. I can't say I can complain about this, despite what flaws the vanilla game had or still has.

Well, the heavy modding support surely helps in viewing the game in positive light in hindsight. In fact, I got more and more urge to continue playing (haven't touched my 532527th run for many months now, but it's still all there and ready to go) to witness some of that what I missed a bit in the CP2077 plot:


Freedom
 
My experience with Fallout 4....
Bought it and installed it. Played a few hours then uninstalled it. Done this several times now for a whopping total of 24 hours of play time. I dunno why but for some reason Fallout 4 just doesn't make me want to play it like the previous fallout games or other games for that matter. Just cause I know what will prolly happen if I don't.....I am in no way shape or form saying/implying Fallout 4 is a bad game.

Now Cyberpunk on the other hand. I am on my second playthrough with just shy of 230 hours of play time.
 
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I honestly don't understand why we keep comparing CP with other games ... Each game that is created has its own story and characteristics, which in some cases may resemble other games but this is not always the case. CP is a great game but it is simply CP
 
I have ~1800 hours in Boston and ~900 in Skyrim..

I will never go back now that Cyberpunk swept me away. Talking to Misty made me yell to the household "Bethesda shouldn't even have a job now" due to the flawless interaction, facials and gestures that I saw while having tarot read.


Bethesda can learn from CDPR
 
I honestly don't understand why we keep comparing CP with other games ... Each game that is created has its own story and characteristics, which in some cases may resemble other games but this is not always the case. CP is a great game but it is simply CP

Dwarf Fortress has better city AI than Cyberpunk and that's 20 years old!

Medal of Honor has better shooter mechanics and that is 25 years old!

The Witcher has better beard growth .... and so on.

There seems to be this culture in gaming that there must be a king of the hill - that every mechanic in isolation should sweep all other games before it.

I get the issues that people have with this game, I've got a fair share of my own - but - games are entertainment media, you can have thousands and love them all differently.
 

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So just started Fallout 4 again for the 20s time or so, never having completed it :D

Which is no issue for me, I get easily distracted doing other things and think that is great. Now Fallout 4 is not a perfect game by any means, but especially one thing it does good, in fact Bethesda and these IP does very well is how they handle the main quest.

In Fallout 4 you have the intro and your kid is stolen, you wake up and basically have no clue how to solve it. So you leave the vault go see the robot, that tell you to go to a nearby city and find answers. Here you meet a group of people that then decide to settle where you used to live. But even here you are not really encourage to push the main quest, in fact the quest you get is to go help another settlement or you can give some drugs to that old lady, will get back to that.

What I like about this, is that it leaves the main quest fairly vague and it encourage exploration, you are instantly distracted by the whole build a settlement thing as well, which I personally enjoy a lot, especially with mods like Sim settlements 2, which allow you or your settlers to build dynamic cities very fast, and really shows how insane some of these mods are.


Had CP gone more into these things, obviously the main story probably couldn't have been told as well as it is, but I think it would have made for a better RPG game, had they done it, with a lot more replayability than a linear story allows for.

So at least to me, since the design of Night city is by far one of the best things about CP, they should have looked at Fallout and Skyrim and even TW3 to some degree and what makes people keep coming back to these. Had they made the main story nonlinear and instead put effort into making Night city feel like a place of opportunities, dynamic and interactive, I think it would have made for a lot better game.

Last I just want to ask a question in regards to drugs, because as I was playing Fallout 4 you are pretty much from the start of the game, given the option to get drugs for that old lady I mentioned above, and there is no doubt that these are drugs given the dialog. This was an issue in CP as far as I know in regards to releasing it certain places. Does that mean that Fallout 4 for instance is not available in Australia and such places? or if it is how did Fallout 4 manage to get around it, anyone knows?
Dude you just described whats wrong with Fallout 4s story not what makes it good. The story is the single most stellar thing Cyberpunk has and its a trillion miles better than whatever Bethesda can cook up with their level designer writers.

Only part Fallout 4 is better is open world gameplay loop and thats also debatable.
 
Man, I absolutely loved Fallout 4 as a game.

But I came to both FO4 and Cyberpunk with a different mindset. My all time favorite genre is MMO. So any game that has that grindy/resources gathering game loop gets me hooked. And Fallout 4 was an absolute ball clearing out bad guys and hoarding resources to make a massive network of interconnecting settlements with fun resource mini-games.

I know some people can argue that finding your lost kid holds some kind of urgency, but you can just forget about your kid and take on a new persona as wasteland king. You really don't have that freedom in Cyberpunk. You don't get to casually forget you have brain-cancer to work on your hacking skills. The game will literally remind you every so often that you're dying, and if you don't get help -- you will absolutely fucking die!

What I hate the absolute most about Cyberpunk and where they failed directly compared to Fallout 4 is how the story ended. With Fallout 4, you can rush the story, complete it, and then enjoy the open-world at your leisure. So you can for example, solved your kid problem, and then gone around becoming the ruler of the badlands without feeling guilty for abandoning your baby.

Where as in Cyberpunk, they give you this big open-world and an urgency to cure your brain cancer, but when you find the cure--well the game just ends. There is no "hero's journal' that results in you returning back to the open-world a hero to dick around as you please. It's basically "you got fucked (because this game is 'edgy', so uh, restart or play another game--aight?"

There isn't a single moment in this game where you can feel at liberty to explore the entire city at your leisure without being reminded that you have brain cancer. And that dark cloud shitting on your playthrough with its 'edginess' just bothers me so much.

At least Fallout 4 doesn't sabotage the player's open world experience by giving your a doom's day timer.

/EndRant
 
Dwarf Fortress has better city AI than Cyberpunk and that's 20 years old!

Medal of Honor has better shooter mechanics and that is 25 years old!

The Witcher has better beard growth .... and so on.

There seems to be this culture in gaming that there must be a king of the hill - that every mechanic in isolation should sweep all other games before it.

I get the issues that people have with this game, I've got a fair share of my own - but - games are entertainment media, you can have thousands and love them all differently.

But I didn't write that CP has no problems. There is no doubt that some things can be improved, such as AI, even if now playing at a difficult level the NPCs seem more "active" to me. But you simply cannot parogate one game with another. All games have flaws, but we all play a game because we like it no matter what problems there may be. Obviously I'm referring to pc mode, I hope cdproject can fix things because this game deserves to be played
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Man, I absolutely loved Fallout 4 as a game.

But I came to both FO4 and Cyberpunk with a different mindset. My all time favorite genre is MMO. So any game that has that grindy/resources gathering game loop gets me hooked. And Fallout 4 was an absolute ball clearing out bad guys and hoarding resources to make a massive network of interconnecting settlements with fun resource mini-games.

I know some people can argue that finding your lost kid holds some kind of urgency, but you can just forget about your kid and take on a new persona as wasteland king. You really don't have that freedom in Cyberpunk. You don't get to casually forget you have brain-cancer to work on your hacking skills. The game will literally remind you every so often that you're dying, and if you don't get help -- you will absolutely fucking die!

What I hate the absolute most about Cyberpunk and where they failed directly compared to Fallout 4 is how the story ended. With Fallout 4, you can rush the story, complete it, and then enjoy the open-world at your leisure. So you can for example, solved your kid problem, and then gone around becoming the ruler of the badlands without feeling guilty for abandoning your baby.

Where as in Cyberpunk, they give you this big open-world and an urgency to cure your brain cancer, but when you find the cure--well the game just ends. There is no "hero's journal' that results in you returning back to the open-world a hero to dick around as you please. It's basically "you got fucked (because this game is 'edgy', so uh, restart or play another game--aight?"

There isn't a single moment in this game where you can feel at liberty to explore the entire city at your leisure without being reminded that you have brain cancer. And that dark cloud shitting on your playthrough with its 'edginess' just bothers me so much.

At least Fallout 4 doesn't sabotage the player's open world experience by giving your a doom's day timer.

/EndRant

Personally I have never liked to continue playing after the story is over, but this is my personal taste. I finished CP twice and in one run I did all the finals, except the one of the villa and honestly I liked them. But I took the endings as the beginning of a possible sequel, but if it weren't so patience why does V have to live? Just because he is the protagonist, well for me in the games it is also nice that the protagonist could die, even if we do not know for sure we only have clues.



Ps since we are comparing the games, even if I don't like it, also in ME3 Sephard dies in the final, or so it seems since they put his nameplate, but undoubtedly it remains a great game
 
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But I didn't write that CP has no problems. There is no doubt that some things can be improved, such as AI, even if now playing at a difficult level the NPCs seem more "active" to me. But you simply cannot parogate one game with another. All games have flaws, but we all play a game because we like it no matter what problems there may be. Obviously I'm referring to pc mode, I hope cdproject can fix things because this game deserves to be played

I know. I was literally agreeing with you.
 
Dude you just described whats wrong with Fallout 4s story not what makes it good. The story is the single most stellar thing Cyberpunk has and its a trillion miles better than whatever Bethesda can cook up with their level designer writers.

Only part Fallout 4 is better is open world gameplay loop and thats also debatable.
What part of the story in CP77 did you find "good"? Yes, there is some risk that I might be tempted to nitpick your answer a little bit. Because personally, I expected a good story but what we got was... Unimpressive, I guess. Unambitious. Too many cliches, too much railroading where other options are barred for inexplicable reasons.
 
I know. I was literally agreeing with you.

I misinterpreted your place I'm sorry :)
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What part of the story in CP77 did you find "good"? Yes, there is some risk that I might be tempted to nitpick your answer a little bit. Because personally, I expected a good story but what we got was... Unimpressive, I guess. Unambitious. Too many cliches, too much railroading where other options are barred for inexplicable reasons.
Which part do we see ...
The Delemain side quest, the July and Panam romance quest, the Alvarez quest and many more, the main story is also nice even if it's short.
 
So the argument "I need to find my kid but screw it, let me build a town" is slightly moot or baseless because you could play a bit, find closure and then do the rest.

Well, I wouldn't say "baseless", but debatable, sure. Since the game incentivises you to take part in Minutemen quests right from the get-go. Obviously it doesn't force you to, so you do have the freedom, no doubt.
Also the main plot drags you along quite some time, before it eases up, if you want to reach the conclusion. But you're not wrong, eventually the feeling of rush does ease up. Unlike Cyberpunk.

In FO4 you have a choice right from the start: Becoming disillusioned in this apocalyptic setting and just writing off your kid as being lost - if you want to.

Well... with a stretch of imagination, I guess. But the way your main character's lines are written, the game "forces" you to care about finding your son.
 
Which part do we see ...
The Delemain side quest, the July and Panam romance quest, the Alvarez quest and many more, the main story is also nice even if it's short.
Considering I just commented on cliches, railroads, lack of options, and lack of ambition, your examples of "good" stories would seem to indicate that we just fundamentally don't agree on what a good story is. Fair enough.
 
Dwarf Fortress has better city AI than Cyberpunk and that's 20 years old!

Medal of Honor has better shooter mechanics and that is 25 years old!
DF also has been programmed for >20 years. And to paraphrase a developer, having 9 pregnant women doesn't make a baby in one month. Some things take time regardless of how many people you have working on it.

A better AI comparison for an old game it would be the first FEAR game.

Also Medal of Honor is console shooter at its finest. To me that is just bad. Most guns have zero recoil and pinpoint accuracy. Better shooter mechanics comparison would be Tarkov. And even then CP2077 nailed the visual and sound design, as well as recoil for each gun. As far as raw pewpewpewing goes, it's topnotch.

One real problem is that if you play on hard, you have the meatbag syndrome where most people take way too many shots to kill. The only way that makes sense to me is when you compare the price to things to the price of having damn armor in your skin. It's super cheap. Also even thin designer clothes seem to be super armored for some reason and with some alien physics for good measure. You can get ripped t-shirts with better armor than arasaka armor vests. It makes no sense and I hope they will either rebalance or modders will.

Shooting in CP2077 also suffers from bullets not going where your gun is pointing at. It's an effect of programming spread that way and it's noticeable when you're not using ADS and you have the spread reticle. That needs to be fixed. A better way of handling it would be having the gun always fire where it's pointing at, but have a bigger sway and lower recoil compensation when not doing ADS, so the firing is more wild, instead of bullets just going out in a cone in front of your barrel.
 
DF also has been programmed for >20 years. And to paraphrase a developer, having 9 pregnant women doesn't make a baby in one month. Some things take time regardless of how many people you have working on it.

A better AI comparison for an old game it would be the first FEAR game.

Also Medal of Honor is console shooter at its finest. To me that is just bad. Most guns have zero recoil and pinpoint accuracy. Better shooter mechanics comparison would be Tarkov. And even then CP2077 nailed the visual and sound design, as well as recoil for each gun. As far as raw pewpewpewing goes, it's topnotch.

One real problem is that if you play on hard, you have the meatbag syndrome where most people take way too many shots to kill. The only way that makes sense to me is when you compare the price to things to the price of having damn armor in your skin. It's super cheap. Also even thin designer clothes seem to be super armored for some reason and with some alien physics for good measure. You can get ripped t-shirts with better armor than arasaka armor vests. It makes no sense and I hope they will either rebalance or modders will.

Shooting in CP2077 also suffers from bullets not going where your gun is pointing at. It's an effect of programming spread that way and it's noticeable when you're not using ADS and you have the spread reticle. That needs to be fixed. A better way of handling it would be having the gun always fire where it's pointing at, but have a bigger sway and lower recoil compensation when not doing ADS, so the firing is more wild, instead of bullets just going out in a cone in front of your barrel.

During the game it is explained that bullets can bounce, it is explained in the tutorial and it also seems to me during the T-Bug tutorial. This is a game that also needs a minimum of strategy, you cannot go hard against enemies, especially on a difficult and very difficult level.
 
I can't wait to go back to FO4 Horizon, I was playing that waiting for cyberpunk release

the problem is I cannot stop playing Cyberpunk 2077
 
How can anyone say Fallout 4 is objectively a better game than CP?

The quest in CP are way more varied. The dialog can actually result in more outcomes other than yes sarcastically.
Gun play is also objectively better in CP, combat is also far more varied and CP has an actual stealth system unlike FO4's binary "yes I can see you, no I can not".
Many side quest also tie back into the main story unlike FO4.
Honestly, there's really nothing I can point to in F04 and say it's objectively better.
I guess the world design in F04 is pretty decent even if the what you do with it is pretty bare bones.
 
Can't take OP seriously when Fallout 4 offers this type of "quality" writing for the entire game.

Fallout4.png


CP is nowhere near perfect, but is miles, miles ahead of Bethesda's any game.
 
How can anyone say Fallout 4 is objectively a better game than CP?

The quest in CP are way more varied. The dialog can actually result in more outcomes other than yes sarcastically.
Gun play is also objectively better in CP, combat is also far more varied and CP has an actual stealth system unlike FO4's binary "yes I can see you, no I can not".
Many side quest also tie back into the main story unlike FO4.
Honestly, there's really nothing I can point to in F04 and say it's objectively better.
I guess the world design in F04 is pretty decent even if the what you do with it is pretty bare bones.
I don't think it is better, it's just unique in its genre. CP2077 on the other end can be quite derivative. The only think where CP stands out it's the city as overall package (architecture, design, soundscape, color palette, art). No other game has such believable city, more so futuristic.
 
I honestly don't understand why we keep comparing CP with other games ... Each game that is created has its own story and characteristics, which in some cases may resemble other games but this is not always the case. CP is a great game but it is simply CP
As it is right now, CP is in no way, form or shape a great game. The narrative of the side mission is pretty good, and the story (main plot?) is also kinda cool in my opinion, but the game itself! Has a long way to go, before i would even call it a good one. I have no problem, seeing this turn into the masterpiece they made it out to be. But there is a long road ahead for that to happen.

I dont doubt that you are enjoying it, i am to a certain degree too. But calling it great, well you should raise the bar a bit.

My initial tought when i started to play was "Holy shit, this is it", and then my 15min as a Nomad was over. Only to be greeted by a weak ass montage, completely ruining a perfect opurtunity to get to know the City alongside my new found friend Jackie(Inbefore this gets pushed as DLC).
Sure this game has some bugs and minor glitches that can be ignored, but there is something else quite profound off about it, and i honestly dont think it can or will be fixed. PLEASE CDPR prove me wrong, i dare you, i double dare you!
 
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