...hexproof card...an artefact or something...maybe some units with this. The game already has cards with Immunity. Since Nil mill decks are now at the point of being able to deplete your deck by round 3, Hexproof is an obvious counter to this.
...like the supposedly impossible feats of the four minute mile or a sub 10 second 100 metres sprint time, I had an opponent completely wipe out my deck so that I had no mulligan phase in round three. I can't say that I noticed anyone getting close to this for the months that I've had Nil decks...
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I thought that the point of card games like GWENT is to have decks which can counter any deck construction (in theory, not in practice, of course). Nil mill decks lack this, I think. So, create a counter to it. Hexproof. I.e. Nil mill decks can play and spam their cards and units which deplete your deck. It's just that nothing will come of it.
My my, as someone who doesn't like magic the gathering, you sure seem to like its mechanics. Hexproof in mtg as you have already pointed out is, literally the same as immunity on some gwent cards. What I don't understand and what is not obvious to me at all, is how this mechanic (more of?) would counter mill decks. Hexproof doesnt counter mill in magic, thats for sure.
My my, as someone who doesn't like magic the gathering, you sure seem to like its mechanics. Hexproof in mtg as you have already pointed out is, literally the same as immunity on some gwent cards. What I don't understand and what is not obvious to me at all, is how this mechanic (more of?) would counter mill decks. Hexproof doesnt counter mill in magic, thats for sure.
Well, units and cards in GWENT designed to mill your deck are generally non-combat. I.e. your opponent's units are not dealing damage to your units on the board. It's sort of like magic. My suggestion is that having a hexproof artefact or unit would just have the effect of nullifying the effect of units like Viper Witcher or special cards.
I hate MTG even more than I hate GWENT. But each card game has positives. E.g. GWENT has no mana and less cards. That's one on MTG.
Well, units and cards in GWENT designed to mill your deck are generally non-combat. I.e. your opponent's units are not dealing damage to your units on the board. It's sort of like magic. My suggestion is that having a hexproof artefact or unit would just have the effect of nullifying the effect of units like Viper Witcher or special cards.
But that has, as I have stated, nothing to do with hexproof. In fact if the gwent devs made such a card to mullify the effects of mill it would most likely not be immune/hexproof, it would very much have to be counterable by your opponent. And people would not play it, because most match ups are not mill, lol.
In the end all of these posts/rants is because you lost a few matches and felt bad, and now want the entire game to change to suit your playstyle and your skill level. The devs would have to be pretty "slow" to even consider these suggestions.
Milling has been indirectly "buffed" by the increase in thinning. So yes it can deplete your opponent by round 3 if they are also doing a lot of thinning. But then that's one of the good things about milling, it's a counter to decks that thin for two rounds to all but guarantee their strongest cards are available in a short round 3. Mill decks are also incredibly risky for the person using them because they tend to lack the ability to put a lot of value on the board. I think they're good where they are. You could always bring back ambushes that precede deploy abilities, but that reopens a big ugly can of SK worms...
Unless I have overlooked one, there are ten cards (totaling 81 provisions) that pull cards from the opponent’s deck accessible by NG. One of these (Ihuarraquax) is extremely hard to use as it is very likely to brick another of these cards. So effectively there are 9 milling cards that total 71 provisions. Since only 16 cards are naturally drawn from a 25 card deck, even in the unlikely event that all these cards are drawn, milling has no effect unless it is either helped by self thinning, or milling cards are replayed. Moreover, two milling cards (Stregobor and Isabel) are order cards which can be countered by locks and removal (fairly universal tools). One card each could be replayed by Renew, Necromancy, and Coup de Grace. The only other replay I can find is Operator onto Kingslayer followed by Infiltrators and Experimental Remedy), giving up to three more mills.
Moreover, I do not believe it possible to mill more than one card per turn — to affect an opponent’s ability to get a full draw on round three, at least 10 turns must be spent playing or replaying milling cards — all while being competitive enough to win a round and remain sufficiently effective for round three.
In the absence of incredible luck, mill decks generally require opponent help to win. They will ever only dominate a small set of decks and will never have consistency to move beyond meme level.
Milling has been indirectly "buffed" by the increase in thinning. So yes it can deplete your opponent by round 3 if they are also doing a lot of thinning. But then that's one of the good things about milling, it's a counter to decks that thin for two rounds to all but guarantee their strongest cards are available in a short round 3. Mill decks are also incredibly risky for the person using them because they tend to lack the ability to put a lot of value on the board. I think they're good where they are. You could always bring back ambushes that precede deploy abilities, but that reopens a big ugly can of SK worms...
I'm not so immersed in this game that I'm up to speed with the jargon, like "milling" and "thinning". Is thinning where you put your opponents' units into their graveyard? Milling is where your opponent puts your units back onto your deck? I just play the game and don't swot over the details or the lore.
Milling has been indirectly "buffed" by the increase in thinning. So yes it can deplete your opponent by round 3 if they are also doing a lot of thinning. But then that's one of the good things about milling, it's a counter to decks that thin for two rounds to all but guarantee their strongest cards are available in a short round 3. Mill decks are also incredibly risky for the person using them because they tend to lack the ability to put a lot of value on the board. I think they're good where they are. You could always bring back ambushes that precede deploy abilities, but that reopens a big ugly can of SK worms...
What you mentioned is true in the past but with WOTW, good value cards been introduced that works with mill decks and mill decks can now score well too.
I'm not so immersed in this game that I'm up to speed with the jargon, like "milling" and "thinning". Is thinning where you put your opponents' units into their graveyard? Milling is where your opponent puts your units back onto your deck? I just play the game and don't swot over the details or the lore.
Thinning is when you tutor, summon or draw cards from your deck, the idea being to guarantee all the cards you need in rounds 2 and 3.
Milling is when you remove cards from your opponents deck, the idea being to remove your opponents best cards before they can play them and, in a perfect world, even leave them without the ability to draw cards after round 2.
Unless I have overlooked one, there are ten cards (totaling 81 provisions) that pull cards from the opponent’s deck accessible by NG. One of these (Ihuarraquax) is extremely hard to use as it is very likely to brick another of these cards. So effectively there are 9 milling cards that total 71 provisions. Since only 16 cards are naturally drawn from a 25 card deck, even in the unlikely event that all these cards are drawn, milling has no effect unless it is either helped by self thinning, or milling cards are replayed. Moreover, two milling cards (Stregobor and Isabel) are order cards which can be countered by locks and removal (fairly universal tools). One card each could be replayed by Renew, Necromancy, and Coup de Grace. The only other replay I can find is Operator onto Kingslayer followed by Infiltrators and Experimental Remedy), giving up to three more mills.
Moreover, I do not believe it possible to mill more than one card per turn — to affect an opponent’s ability to get a full draw on round three, at least 10 turns must be spent playing or replaying milling cards — all while being competitive enough to win a round and remain sufficiently effective for round three.
In the absence of incredible luck, mill decks generally require opponent help to win. They will ever only dominate a small set of decks and will never have consistency to move beyond meme level.
Exactly. I would disagree with tagging the strategy as 'meme' but I think you're right otherwise. Which is why I would say the strategy is a valid counter to deck thinning. With luck, it can counter just about anything ... Kingslayer pulling lippy or cerys is almost always an immediate (and very gratifying imho) forfeit, for example.
Gwent needs elimination of all tutors that made this game too linear. Oneiromancy was the worst introduction of 2020.
It would be great if defenders are gone too.
Player's skill should be in creating a deck that will perform well in different circumstances against various archetypes, without 99% guarantee of pulling all the right cards at the right moment.
Gwent needs elimination of all tutors that made this game too linear. Oneiromancy was the worst introduction of 2020.
It would be great if defenders are gone too.
Player's skill should be in creating a deck that will perform well in different circumstances against various archetypes, without 99% guarantee of pulling all the right cards at the right moment.
Unfortunately, everything is interconnected. You cannot pull defenders without dealing with excessive removal. You cannot deal with excessive removal unless you deal with over-generating engines. You cannot limit engines without reducing pointslam...
You cannot reduce tutors without dealing with the vast difference between top tier cards and typical bronzes; you can’t reduce tutoring when entire decks revolve around a small handful of cards.
In principle, I agree with you; pragmatically, I can’t see changing these without a total rework. And I don’t think Gwent can survive another total rework.
Thinning is when you tutor, summon or draw cards from your deck, the idea being to guarantee all the cards you need in rounds 2 and 3.
Milling is when you remove cards from your opponents deck, the idea being to remove your opponents best cards before they can play them and, in a perfect world, even leave them without the ability to draw cards after round 2.
Is there an official or really good community page which defines common terms in this game? If there are cards with "Tutor" i their descriptive text I haven't really come across them that often to know well what they are. What you say sounds like special cards or units which allow you to choose a card to bring into your hand. Is it only called thinning when they do that immediately? Because you can shuffle the cards that you want to the top of your deck but you don't get them until the next round...unless they play Viper Witcher or something like that.
Just going on the kind of action you'd expect "thinning" to do, something like Viper Witcher would seem to fit the bill, as it banishes a card in your deck, 'thinning' it. You could imagine 'fattening' a deck, through the use of special cards or units which add cards to your deck. A card like Coated Weapons would fit that bill but I have no idea if the community actually has a word for that 'fattening' concept.
I was getting confused because for either kind of deck ('thinning' or 'fattening'), Nil has a round 3 match-winner in Kolgrim. And he can win the match for you if you have either a 'thinning' or 'fattening' orientated deck. He seems most effective in a 'thinning' deck, i.e. one which mills your deck entirely by the start of round 3.
I'm not sure whether the times that I've beaten the Kolgrim deck have been due to luck on my side or my opponent not having a very good deck for this play.
Gwent needs elimination of all tutors that made this game too linear. Oneiromancy was the worst introduction of 2020.
It would be great if defenders are gone too.
Player's skill should be in creating a deck that will perform well in different circumstances against various archetypes, without 99% guarantee of pulling all the right cards at the right moment.
I don't know that getting rid of Defenders is a good move. Nor has some units with a powerful effect but weak power and if you don't have a Defender, you're pretty well screwed by playing those units, because they'll be removed quite easily.
I believe it is team aretuza that has a very nice glossary page.
You basically have the terms correct, except there is a subtle difference between “thinning” and “milling”. Thinning is when you voluntarily draw, play, or summon a (usually inferior) card from your deck (as when a foglet summons a copy of a foglet from your deck) in order to improve chances of drawing desired cards later. Milling is when an opponent involuntarily forces a card from your deck (often, but not always, by discarding) to deny you full use of that card.
Finally, forcing (generally bad) cards into an opponents deck is a new strategy that arose from the WotW expansion. I don’t know that it has a fully established vocabulary yet — it has been referred to a reverse milling or (a term I prefer) clogging.
I believe it is team aretuza that has a very nice glossary page.
You basically have the terms correct, except there is a subtle difference between “thinning” and “milling”. Thinning is when you voluntarily draw, play, or summon a (usually inferior) card from your deck (as when a foglet summons a copy of a foglet from your deck) in order to improve chances of drawing desired cards later. Milling is when an opponent involuntarily forces a card from your deck (often, but not always, by discarding) to deny you full use of that card.
Finally, forcing (generally bad) cards into an opponents deck is a new strategy that arose from the WotW expansion. I don’t know that it has a fully established vocabulary yet — it has been referred to a reverse milling or (a term I prefer) clogging.
Another thing that confused me was the notion that a tutor could be a unit which buffs weak units. Maybe Sco has those and Nor's Griffin Witcher Adept's ability to transform weak witcher rookies or whatever you call them into 4 point units is something that strikes me as being able to be called tutoring.
I also looked up the word in the deckbuilder and Ban Ard Tutor comes up. Conceptually it's similar to what I said above, i.e. buffing similar or maybe weaker units. It all gets a bit confusing.
I've got a better sense of the previous posts' meaning in any case.
With thinning, it's previously struck me as a means to get your opponent at a card disadvantage (remember when that mattered?) to end round 1 with or open round 2 with. I.e. it was more a battle tactic than a strategy thing, which Kolgrim now seems to bring to the table. That seems to me to be the main exploit for it but I suppose it can also function to improve your odds of drawing other cards later on, like you say. Maybe I have a different scenario in mind, e.g. where you play one unit and that has the effect of plonking 1 or 2 other units onto the board for you. That's the gaining-card-advantage scenario I had in mind.
With milling, previously that had a random effect on your deck, with units like Viper Witcher but it's really been buffed-up recently, so now opponents can basically kill your top units at will. Which sucks. Too OP. Not sure if anyone is calling for that to be nerfed.
With "clogging", I don't tend to get too aggro with that. That Mata Hari card or whatever you call it didn't do me wrong with one deck of mine, where me gaining a low-cost unit is very useful to me. People using Coated Weapons maybe use that card to get rid of units which annoy them, so having that same annoying card on the next round doesn't strike me as being too bad...unless you don't have an answer for Kolgrim. In that earlier case, "clogging" a deck doesn't sound like the right word. "Fattening" your deck seems more apt.
Kolgrim decks - if the player with them has both thinning and fattening cards, you're in big trouble. And why do they always have Kolgrim in round 3, along with his buddy, mimic dude? I don't think that's his actual name though.
In principle, I agree with you; pragmatically, I can’t see changing these without a total rework. And I don’t think Gwent can survive another total rework.
Unfortunately, everything is interconnected. You cannot pull defenders without dealing with excessive removal. You cannot deal with excessive removal unless you deal with over-generating engines. You cannot limit engines without reducing pointslam...
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