The degree of discussion around 1st/3rd person, modding V, and V vs the endings, is evidence of CDPR being onto something...

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The degree of discussion around 1st/3rd person, modding V, and V vs the endings, is evidence of the fact that CDPR is onto something here.

Regardless of your thoughts about whether CDPR did a good or bad job with respect to the story, bugs, cut content, gameplay, and so on, my observation is that the community is experiencing an attachment to their characters that isn't seen in most other games. Whether because of it or despite it (I believe because of it), the way first-person has been integrated into the game has allowed a sense of immersion in the character that would be lacking if it were only in third person.

That said, I believe that at least a limited amount of third person visuals (not just what we have now - and I'm not talking about third-person combat or anything like that) is also necessary, as being able to see our V's facial expressions at various points in the game, as well as the movement of her lips while she talks, is important to fill the gap between the fact that we can feel our own facial muscles move when we talk, and feel the vibrations of our vocal cords as well (not to mention being able to pair this with seeing our reflection in mirrors, windows and so on).

Anyway, the point is that I hope that CDPR realise they've created (at least the early stages of) something that players are able to connect with in ways that have rarely been seen in other games. If they realise this, then perhaps they won't neglect further development of this aspect of the game, as there is something that players - and the modding community by extension - will cling onto for years to come, if they manage it right. It's not just about the telling of the story.

My wants:
  • More powerful photo mode with more subtle expressions, as well as more control and customisation of poses, expressions and so on.
  • More points throughout the game where we can see V interacting with other characters from a third-person perspective - NOT just in the final scene of whatever ending you choose. I think this is something that is really important and has been cut too heavily from the game.
  • Heavy investment in style choices.
  • Better control over hairstyles. Why does hair need to be a single model? Why can't players decide if they want a shaved patch on one side or not? Also, if they let us change hairstyles, please don't make us go to a hair stylist to switch between two hair-dos that have roughly the same underlying hair. For example, long hair can be put in double buns in front of a mirror.
  • Seeing what ripperdocs are doing to us. Cutting my biological arms off to install cybernetic replacements? That is a HUGE deal! Yes, maybe it's a bit gruesome. Maybe it's a bit shocking. I don't care - it's important - show me!
CDPR, you've given us a taste of something other games haven't given us. Please embrace it and run with it!
 
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Tbh in this day an age as far as im concerned there is no reason to not give the player both FP and TP views easily switchable with a toggle in games like CP

"its more immersive" doesn't cut it with me an all i hear is "we cant be arsed doing player animations"
 
Agreed with everything else.

But I personally like the fact that we only get to see V as an outsider at the end, it's symbolic, like a subtle and graceful farewell towards our V.

I do wish there were other ways to emphasize on the sense of presence, more mirroring surfaces (like in Mirror's Edge Catalyst) and not absolutely horrendous, ptsd inducing, shadows (sometimes I'm missing my head, sometimes I'm a walking jacket, sometimes I'm an inflatable tube guy - really what the actual flipping holy mother of grai's life sauce is this stuff bros?!?!?!?).
 
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For me personally it's because this game was announced the year I graduated high school. I've been keeping tabs on it ever since. So I'm so attached to this game because it's literally a childhood dream of mine. That being said the wish was definitely not fulfilled at least not yet.
 
More powerful photo mode with more subtle expressions, as well as more control and customisation of poses, expressions and so on.
I don't care much about photomode, but I understand it's important for others. So sure, why not?

More points throughout the game where we can see V interacting with other characters from a third-person perspective - NOT just in the final scene of whatever ending you choose. I think this is something that is really important and has been cut too heavily from the game.
I don't want any more third person scenes than those already in the game, it just doesn't make sense for a first person game.
More working reflections of my character would be great though.

Heavy investment in style choices.
I don't really understand what you mean by that. More clothing options?

Better control over hairstyles. Why does hair need to be a single model? Why can't players decide if they want a shaved patch on one side or not? Also, if they let us change hairstyles, please don't make us go to a hair stylist to switch between two hair-dos that have roughly the same underlying hair. For example, long hair can be put in double buns in front of a mirror.
Something like a barber shop would be a nice start. Switching stuff in front of mirror, not sure if that's needed when there's a barber (some time in the future).

Seeing what ripperdocs are doing to us. Cutting my biological arms off to install cybernetic replacements? That is a HUGE deal! Yes, maybe it's a bit gruesome. Maybe it's a bit shocking. I don't care - it's important - show me!
That's about the same level as train transports - it will get boring fast and then turn into something annoying.
 
That's simple human behavior.

The opposite of happiness isn't hate, it's indifference.

People don't complain over things they don't care about, they forget all about it and move on. People care about this game and want it to be better and succeed. Myself included. Whether it will or not is still up in the air.

Those who didn't care already left.
 
Game is clearly better on First Person.
People want 3rd person just because the game lacks cutscene where you can actually enjoy your char look.

Yes, this is about connecting with the the character. I don't think there is a need for third-person to be included in game mechanics, as people allude to when talking about leaning around corners, aiming weapons and so forth. This is purely about connecting with the character and also about seeing the character's personality and style juxtaposed with the other characters she's interacting with between missions.

As an example, when V receives a phone call from a fixer, it'd be nice to see a box with V's face so we can see her lips move and her facial expressions as she replies. Or even just put these on the head model if we're in third-person vehicle mode. Just a glimpse here and there.
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Agreed with everything else.

But I personally like the fact that we only get to see V as an outsider at the end, it's symbolic, like a subtle and graceful farewell towards our V.

I do wish there were other ways to emphasize on the sense of presence, more mirroring surfaces (like in Mirror's Edge Catalyst) and not absolutely horrendous, ptsd inducing, shadows (sometimes I'm missing my head, sometimes I'm a walking jacket, sometimes I'm an inflatable tube guy - really what the actual flipping holy mother of grai's life sauce is this stuff bros?!?!?!?).

I don't care about the symbolism. 99.9% of the time we're actually playing the game. That's where I want the attention focused.
 
Tbh in this day an age as far as im concerned there is no reason to not give the player both FP and TP views easily switchable with a toggle in games like CP

"its more immersive" doesn't cut it with me an all i hear is "we cant be arsed doing player animations"

Yea their initial reason was immersion and etc. Only to find out that can't be the case, I say that because if you're going to stick to 1st person view then usually the quality all around would still be good, IE the shadows. Matter of fact the next example is the disparity between the story/scripted elements and the open world aspect. You'd think with their reason to stick to first person is to also provide a quality 1st person experience that's on par with the scripted moments, like sitting down, drinking, eating, different types of grapple moves, finishers(multiple not a few), and so on.

They just gave the most bare bones experience though, causing the inconsistency which makes it even more jarring at times.
 
I don't care much about photomode, but I understand it's important for others. So sure, why not?

This is an important point - many objections arise from people who don't care about a thing but fail to consider that others do.

I don't want any more third person scenes than those already in the game, it just doesn't make sense for a first person game.
More working reflections of my character would be great though.

Sure, but see my reply above. I'm not talking about in-mission gameplay, which is why I emphasised "limited" third-person capabilities. Remember how important it was in The Witcher 3 that we could see Geralt's face just as clearly as Yennefer's, Triss' and others' faces? Geralt felt more real because you could see when he was irritated or amused. Granted the whole game is third-person, but I think it's an important example of how important a character's face is when connecting to that character.

I don't really understand what you mean by that. More clothing options?

Clothing crafting recipes, colour choices, visual options for cyberware, tattoos, piercings, eyes, hairstyles, etc.

Something like a barber shop would be a nice start. Switching stuff in front of mirror, not sure if that's needed when there's a barber (some time in the future).

Sure, a barber option is something. But it'd be nice if it went a little deeper than that. It's clear to me that CDPR had a big vision when they were first working on the game. This post is all about encouraging the preservation of at least some of that vision.

That's about the same level as train transports - it will get boring fast and then turn into something annoying.

Sure, and like everything, provide an option to skip it. Problem solved.
 
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Completely agree with your points, it's mostly fluff but it's important because they have the basis from the story and characters at such a rock solid foundation anything to enhance that simply feeds the core of the game.

One thing though. To the third person thing. I don't know if it was the effect they were going for, but when the camara suddenly went into "cutscene" mode during the ending (star, specifically), it was really fucking jarring, because there had been (almost) 0 options for the mode throughout the game. I think that is evidence of a forced first-person mode being a deliberate design choice for the story of the game.

A huge theme of the game is the concept of identity and self, and I think it does a disservice to the story when you can disassociate from V (through a third-person mode), and kinda throws the theme under the bus imo.
 
A huge theme of the game is the concept of identity and self, and I think it does a disservice to the story when you can disassociate from V (through a third-person mode), and kinda throws the theme under the bus imo.

That may be true, but I think the core point is that we, as humans, feel connected to our faces. I would say that if CDPR chooses to completely avoid any further third-person scenes for V, then at the very least work on a more efficient implementation for character reflections so we can see ourselves in clothing shop mirrors, reflective windows and so on, and have it be authentic enough that if we're standing in front of a reflective surface while a phone call or NPC interaction is taking place, we can see V talking, moving her lips, etc. It's subtle, sure, but attention to detail like this? THIS is the difference between good and GREAT. I daresay that this would also provide a sufficient foundation for the modding community to give additional third-person capabilities to those who want them.
 
This is an important point - many objections arise from people who don't care about a thing but fail to consider that others do.
I think acknowledging that should be fair enough.
Sure, but see my reply above. I'm not talking about in-mission gameplay, which is why I emphasised "limited" third-person capabilities. Remember how important it was in The Witcher 3 that we could see Geralt's face just as clearly as Yennefer's, Triss' and others' faces? Geralt felt more real because you could see when he was irritated or amused. Granted the whole game is third-person, but I think it's an important example of how important a character's face is when connecting to that character.
I understood that and I still disagree in that point.
Third person cutscenes would still be immersion-breaking, because you also don't see yourself in third person when talking to someone, do you?
Also the voiceacting in this game is extraordinary, there is no need to see V's facial expressions.
Clothing crafting recipes, colour choices, visual options for cyberware, tattoos, piercings, eyes, hairstyles, etc.
Agreed. Color choices for clothing would be a start.
Sure, a barber option is something. But it'd be nice if it went a little deeper than that. It's clear to me that CDPR had a big vision when they were first working on the game. This post is all about encouraging the preservation of at least some of that vision.
I'm really not concerned about a feature like that, witcher 3 also didn't have a barber from the start.
Sure, and like everything, provide an option to skip it. Problem solved.
Well, the cost to benefit isn't really there, if you ask me.
It would be a ton of work adding those additional animations, for minimum benefits.
 
That may be true, but I think the core point is that we, as humans, feel connected to our faces. I would say that if CDPR chooses to completely avoid any further third-person scenes for V, then at the very least work on a more efficient implementation for character reflections so we can see ourselves in clothing shop mirrors, reflective windows and so on, and have it be authentic enough that if we're standing in front of a reflective surface while a phone call or NPC interaction is taking place, we can see V talking, moving her lips, etc. It's subtle, sure, but attention to detail like this? THIS is the difference between good and GREAT. I daresay that this would also provide a sufficient foundation for the modding community to give additional third-person capabilities to those who want them.

That I completely agree with, in an ideal world. However, this being a graphically demanding multi-platform game, it probably isn't wise to be throwing mirrors everywhere.

Don't get me wrong, I completely agree with what you said, I just would prefer more than 10 fps :p
 
That I completely agree with, in an ideal world. However, this being a graphically demanding multi-platform game, it probably isn't wise to be throwing mirrors everywhere.

Don't get me wrong, I completely agree with what you said, I just would prefer more than 10 fps :p
Your point is extremely valid of course. I've been a developer for over 20 years, and a system designer for nearly half of that, and I can tell you without a shadow of a doubt that there's almost always a way to have your cake and eat it too. When someone says "you can't X because Y", they just haven't spent enough time thinking outside the box. There are always new and novel ways to do things if you really want to do them and are persistent and creative in your exploration of the problem space.
 
More points throughout the game where we can see V interacting with other characters from a third-person perspective - NOT just in the final scene of whatever ending you choose. I think this is something that is really important and has been cut too heavily from the game.
Playing through the endings and seeing V for the first time moving her head and lips - moments that I would want to experience for the first time again.

First-person in itself is very well made in the game, so well that it made me feel like I'm experiencing the events through the eyes of V. And on top of that, you get to hear some extraordinary voice acting, which just tops everything. No other game made me feel anything close to what this did.

So, to a degree, more third-person scenes would be amazing. Placing these would not be difficult because they wouldn't fit everywhere and shouldn't be put like that, either. You can take an emotional scene from the game - place a third-person perspective in there. And while not the whole thing, you can use some specific moment of that said scene for that setpiece type of deal. Then put them throughout the game, mainly the main story, side-jobs, you know, where it can and would matter. Of course, let's not forget that this type of thing would not be for everyone, so a toggle to disable these wouldn't be hard to implement as well.

As for the rest, I completely agree with everything. Every little detail matters when it comes to this game.
 
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Outside of cutscenes frankly the only thing TPP will offer is a look at your characters a$$ which appears to be the driving demand for TPP. It's not worth the time and effort for them to implement that. They likely added photomode as a substitute for those who feel the need to capture certain moments and that's enough.

The same for Ripper Doc animation, no point adding something ppl will just skip after a few hours.

The only thing I can agree on here is the hair/tattoo parlors and more options for those.
 
CDPR, you've given us a taste of something other games haven't given us. Please embrace it and run with it!
Actually they marketed on giving us more than what other games have given us. With respect to the actual game, they gave us far less than other much older open-world games gave us years ago.

As far as embracing it, other than acknowledging bugs, has CDPR given any indication they acknowledge and intend on addressing the far larger issue of missing content and gameplay dynamics?
 
Actually they marketed on giving us more than what other games have given us. With respect to the actual game, they gave us far less than other much older open-world games gave us years ago.

I think this is a point a lot of people haven't quite managed to work out how to articulate, and so we get endless threads about cut content, missing features and so forth.

It's not about one missing feature or another. It's the fact that CDPR had an exciting, ambitious vision. This is what we were excited about. We were enthusiastic and excited about that vision because we knew they were too, and we believed that CDPR had a level of care and attention to detail to their work that would allow them to achieve this vision. All of the disappointment is because it seems like they gave up on their vision and neglected to tell the community that they were settling for another Witcher-style open world adventure. What they produced (bugs aside) is a great story with fantastic characters and voice acting, as well as fun missions and mechanics, and it has definitely sucked us all in, but it's NOT the vision that they convinced us the game was trying to implement.

So everyone waiting on that vision has now had to try and reconcile what they thought CDPR was trying to do with what they actually ended up doing. At the moment, nobody knows where CDPR stands with respect to that grand ambition they sold us, because they have said absolutely nothing about it one way or the other. Do they want to try and approach that vision? Did they give up? Are they even going to try? Have they changed direction and are using the game they actually delivered to try and tell us this? Are they a victim of the same pollution of vision that almost always seems to end up infecting a profit-driven company? Only time will tell, I guess.

Personally I am disappointed by the fact that they can't be honest with us because lawyers and shareholders have a gun to their heads and care more about the endless extraction of dollars from everything than the value of actually pursuing an honest vision. I'm also disappointed that they anchored themselves to last-gen consoles. It raises questions about how much they'll ever be able to do with the game, regardless of what they might want to.
 
I think this is a point a lot of people haven't quite managed to work out how to articulate, and so we get endless threads about cut content, missing features and so forth.

It's not about one missing feature or another. It's the fact that CDPR had an exciting, ambitious vision. This is what we were excited about. We were enthusiastic and excited about that vision because we knew they were too, and we believed that CDPR had a level of care and attention to detail to their work that would allow them to achieve this vision. All of the disappointment is because it seems like they gave up on their vision and neglected to tell the community that they were settling for another Witcher-style open world adventure. What they produced (bugs aside) is a great story with fantastic characters and voice acting, as well as fun missions and mechanics, and it has definitely sucked us all in, but it's NOT the vision that they convinced us the game was trying to implement.

So everyone waiting on that vision has now had to try and reconcile what they thought CDPR was trying to do with what they actually ended up doing. At the moment, nobody knows where CDPR stands with respect to that grand ambition they sold us, because they have said absolutely nothing about it one way or the other. Do they want to try and approach that vision? Did they give up? Are they even going to try? Have they changed direction and are using the game they actually delivered to try and tell us this? Are they a victim of the same pollution of vision that almost always seems to end up infecting a profit-driven company? Only time will tell, I guess.

Personally I am disappointed by the fact that they can't be honest with us because lawyers and shareholders have a gun to their heads and care more about the endless extraction of dollars from everything than the value of actually pursuing an honest vision. I'm also disappointed that they anchored themselves to last-gen consoles. It raises questions about how much they'll ever be able to do with the game, regardless of what they might want to.
I believe I articulated it quite well, I just used many fewer words to do it.
 
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