**Spoilers** Panam Vs Judy **Spoilers**

+
Well let's see.

Symptom 1 - Fear of abandonment. You agree she has it so +1

Symptom 2 - Unstable relationships. Her history with others, the clan. Even you realize this so this is +2 traits.

Symptom 3 - Unclear or shifting self-image. Panam at times feels good about herself and at other times questions herself. This is during conversations about he leaving the clan. Not a lot of proof either way so let's mark this as a negative. Still + 2.

Symptom 4 - Impulsive self-destructive behaviors. This is described as: "you may engage in harmful, sensation-seeking behaviors, especially when you’re upset. " Panam clearly has this and it was shown during her behavior surrounding Nash. Just because you CAN talk her out of it doesn't mean she didn't want to act on it. Sensation-seeking - panzer tank. It's now +3.

Symptom 5 - Self-harm. I didn't see anything in the game for this one so it's a negative. Still +3.

Symptom 6 - Extreme emotional swings. Yep 100% Panam. No one can argue this one. Just watch her interactions with Saul, you, Mitch etc. It's now +4.

Symptom 7 - Chronic feelings of emptiness. I think Panam suffers from this one. She talks about it when mentioning Night City. She talks about her loneliness and it fits in closely with abandonment. This is one that the game offers some clues on but doesn't proved conclusive evidences either way. I say +5, you will say no so +4.

Symptom 8 - Explosive Anger. Panam 1000%. It's now +6/+5.

Symptom 9 - Feeling suspecious or out of touch with reality. This is defined as "People with BPD often struggle with paranoia or suspicious thoughts about others’ motives." And now watch her relationship with Saul. She always thinks Saul is out to get her or to sell out the clan (Biotechnica). For me that is +7.

Now what's the count? +7 while you might be +5. Either case she qualifies and hit the mark.



So her very first thought when you call her to say good-bye is that you're dumping her. Sorry there goes this point. Plus you already said she does have the first symptom.
No man, I never agreed that she has a fear of abandonment, I specifically said I don't feel as though she has a fear of abandonment. I don't agree with the chronic feelings of emptiness either, nothing in her questline really suggests that she feels empty as a person, she expresses concern over where a life in Night City might lead her, but she never states that she feels an emptiness in regards to her life or who she is as a person. As soon as she is back with the Aldecaldo's V mentions that she seems a lot happier, chronic feelings of emptiness is similar to depression in that it's not just circumstantial, it's persistent even throughout positive life changes. That means it would require you to not only feel sad/empty/depressed when something bad happens in your life (losing scorpion/getting ostracized by your family), but also when something good happens, if it were the other way around every person on planet Earth would qualify as having a depressive disorder or having chronic feelings of emptiness.

As for her relationship with Saul, and "Feeling suspicious or out of touch with reality", he is literally trying to sell the clan out to Biotechnica hahaha, he literally says that to you and to everyone else. So she's not out of touch with reality in regards to that at all, she is never afraid Saul is gonna harm her either, just that he doesn't want her around. Which I think is fair considering how much they argue about the state and politics of the clan. That changes as soon as we kidnap Hellman though, as she finds out from Mitch that Saul sent the Aldecaldo's in to save her, someone with BPD would either just flat out refuse to believe this was the case at all, or believe there was some deeper plot/ulterior motive behind this action.

An example of someone struggling with paranoia or suspicions that are out of touch with reality in that situation would play out something like: "Saul only sent the Aldecaldo's in to help me to get even more of them killed so he could pin the blame on me and force me out of the family forever, so he could finally justify selling us out to Biotechnica". That's completely out of touch with reality and sounds ridiculous, because it is lol, but that's the point behind that symptom being in the diagnosis and why it's a problem overall. When in a relationship with someone who thinks like that, there's absolutely no way to reason with them, because they have already made up their own mind based on events/motives that happened in their imagination even when there's no proof.

As for the call, we know she's impulsive and has a short fuse, so when you call her after having rejected her at camp, saying you can't/don't want to live with her and the nomads and say "I don't know if we're gonna see each other again" she takes it the wrong way, and gets mad. However you instantly explain that's not what you meant, and then she instantly offers to help you with whatever you need even if it means risking her own life because, in her own words "she's there for you".

I would personally give her 3 out of 9 on that list, you could say 4 but like I said, I don't think her relationships are all that unstable outside of her relationship with Saul. She has a short temper so she gets mad at Mitch one time for 5 seconds, but their relationship overall is very stable, they are always super close. Even with Saul, although they don't see eye to eye, they both make it very clear to one another that they love each other regardless and will literally put their lives on the line for each other.
 
LOL, this conversation is still going...

What was this thread about again?
(mods are probably going to lock it or give a warning)

Now the absurdity of this whole situation and me responding to it is not lost on me but hey...

A quick response

@Goodmongo my man, you obviously dislike Panams character to the point you are going out of your way to ascribe characteristics that just don't apply.

@poldengonyboy is doing a great job responding so I'll leave it to him.

I'll just add that most of the things brought up about BPD personalities are normal for other people also, the only thing that sets them apart is how extreme they are. (fear of being abandoned, conflict with family etc. everybody has those lol)

Take a breath, remember its a game character and smile :beer:

Wish everyone a great Sunday ;)
 
LOL, this conversation is still going...

What was this thread about again?
(mods are probably going to lock it or give a warning)

Now the absurdity of this whole situation and me responding to it is not lost on me but hey...

A quick response

@Goodmongo my man, you obviously dislike Panams character to the point you are going out of your way to ascribe characteristics that just don't apply.

@poldengonyboy is doing a great job responding so I'll leave it to him.

I'll just add that most of the things brought up about BPD personalities are normal for other people also, the only thing that sets them apart is how extreme they are. (fear of being abandoned, conflict with family etc. everybody has those lol)

Take a breath, remember its a game character and smile :beer:

Wish everyone a great Sunday ;)
Don't worry bro I'm not upset haha, I think it's fun to talk about things like psychology that's why I was hoping the mods didn't delete my post. But yea it's clear he doesn't like her which is fine I'm not even trying to convince him otherwise, just trying to convince him that it's not BPD that's the issue here hahaha
 
No man, I never agreed that she has a fear of abandonment, I specifically said I don't feel as though she has a fear of abandonment.

I really want to reply but time is too limited today. So I'm only going to address the first one of abandonment. Let's look at many of the previous responses in this thread. A number of individuals in defending her said she had this fear. I know this meansvery little but i mention it to point out that I'm not the only one that sees this. What is ironic is they used this fear as an excuse for her reaction.

In the game Panam tells you that she has this fear. She was in a bad relationship and has a fear that if she got into another one she would get dumped. In addition she has the fear whenever anyone in the camp doesn't agree to her plans.

Panam even left the clan out of this fear. As mentioned I'm really short of time today (work/life) but plan to provide actual in game evidence to support this. But one piece that I know is her reaction to the good-bye phone call.

What is the first thing that comes to her mind? That you are breaking up and her first response if "fuck off". Not that it has anything to do with your situation which she is well aware of. Her first reaction goes straight to abandonment. This is classical and spot on. People suffering from BPD have exactly this same thought process. A fear, real or imagined, that you're leaving them.

What else can explain this reaction?

BTW since your said she could have 4 out of 9 and once I provde further proof of abandonment that is 5 out of 9 and she then qualifies.
 
LOL, this conversation is still going...

What was this thread about again?
(mods are probably going to lock it or give a warning)

Now the absurdity of this whole situation and me responding to it is not lost on me but hey...

A quick response

@Goodmongo my man, you obviously dislike Panams character to the point you are going out of your way to ascribe characteristics that just don't apply.

@poldengonyboy is doing a great job responding so I'll leave it to him.

I'll just add that most of the things brought up about BPD personalities are normal for other people also, the only thing that sets them apart is how extreme they are. (fear of being abandoned, conflict with family etc. everybody has those lol)

Take a breath, remember its a game character and smile :beer:

Wish everyone a great Sunday ;)

Why should they lock or do a warning? Why? Is anybody yelling around and offend anyone?
It was me who talked first about Panem and her "Borderlinish" behavior, not to make fun of her. It was just because her acting reminded me very much of a real person i met.
The discussion about it is complete legit.
 
Panam and Judy are so alike in certain area...

1. With strong personality
2. Act first, think later
3. Strong outside and gentle inside
4. Try to ran away from where they are( the clan/night city)

But you could not have relationship with both of them at same time, maybe that's why CDPR designed this 2 like this, the concept is totally different from Yen and Triss...
 
Panam and Judy are so alike in certain area...

1. With strong personality
2. Act first, think later
3. Strong outside and gentle inside
4. Try to ran away from where they are( the clan/night city)

But you could not have relationship with both of them at same time, maybe that's why CDPR designed this 2 like this, the concept is totally different from Yen and Triss...

Overall, I would generally agree with these points, except for number 2. They say what comes to their mind sure, and they are determined to get what they want definitely, but they show that they plot and plan before they act.

When you first meet Panam and you tell her where her car is and it seems like she will agree to help you in return, you say okay, lets get going! Panam stops and says I should think about this. She's trying to think of what you could possibly do so you two don't just flat out get killed (recruit Mitch and Scorpian), and how she can turn this to her advantage (If she has her car, she will also have her cargo, she should get 6th Street to not go through with the deal with the soon to be dead Nash). It's the same thing she does when you finally get around to snatching Hellman. She cobbles together a plan so you guys actually stand a chance of succeeding in this task.

With Judy, the clear example is taking over Clouds. She knows she wants to do it, she's fueled by anger, but she also knows she can't run over guns blazing. She takes a few days to come up with a plan, recruit people, and even programs new software that will help.
 
Why should they lock or do a warning? Why? Is anybody yelling around and offend anyone?
It was me who talked first about Panem and her "Borderlinish" behavior, not to make fun of her. It was just because her acting reminded me very much of a real person i met.
The discussion about it is complete legit.

No need to feel offended. My wish isn't to lock this thread or any other, as far as I'm concerned no thread should be locked and people should be left to discus topics to their hearts content. But these forums do have rules.

My suggestion/speculation that this thread would be locked came from the fact that it has deviated from it's original topic and that mods had to intervene on multiple occasions because people were becoming emotional/personal (so no, not everyone was polite lol ;) ).

Like I already mentioned I don't care If someone likes/dislikes a character but I do find it funny that people would get so heated about it. (but hey, it's the internet so its normal :) )

The whole discussion about the human psyche is something I find rather interesting but this thread isn't about that so I refrained for going into it.

I probably won't be visiting or responding to this thread anymore so I wish you lads and lasses all the best, do have a great day :):beer:
 
Overall, I would generally agree with these points, except for number 2. They say what comes to their mind sure, and they are determined to get what they want definitely, but they show that they plot and plan before they act.

Oh you mean like all the planning in going after nash? Or for Judy her planning when you first meet Maiko?

V asks how do you plan to convince Maiko and Judy says by telling the trurth of what happened to Evelyn. V asks if that will cut it and Judy says "nope have to improvise". Yep really planned out.

BTW what's funny is she says to V that talking to Maiko is like 3D chess and don't let Maiko derail you. And then says she will do all the talking. Huh? During the talk Judy is shocked to hear that Maiko already knew about Evelyn (more planning). Maiko then says Judy was always unstable. And it ends with Judy saying "She totally blew us off". V has to say she needs time to think. If that was a plan it was less than paper thin.
 
LOL, this conversation is still going...

yea its actually very depressing.

What was this thread about again?
(mods are probably going to lock it or give a warning)

It lost the spirit of the thread long ago.

originally it was just my review of both romances ,reasoning why I choose a favorite an how I felt that Panam did not get as much "casual time" , my comments on the "love" part.

It meat as a review and picture posting thread that got derailed into a "Panam hate" thread and absurdly bias personality profile at one point based on a ex. there is always 2 sides of a story on any break up. As I have stated my ex are ex because I found their "personality's" boring weak and spineless. ( context :I find the Personality in Yen stronger than Triss and Panama stronger than judy

@Goodmongo my man, you obviously dislike Panams character to the point you are going out of your way to ascribe characteristics that just don't apply.

This I agree with. I disagree @Goodmongo viewpoints an reasonings behind them.

All of Pamam's reactions were justified in both character and trait aspects in the context they were happening. I still see a great representation of what strong women should aspire to be. I completely disagree with their interpretation of the last phone call. It had nothing to do with her thinking you were breaking up with her everything to do with you not being honest and asking for help right there. hence hang up get your sh** together and call back when your not acting like defeated whiner and ready to let me help you.

Another example of her response being completely justified in context

"her comment in the the car at the end "Your with me now and we will find a way to fix this " was priceless and completely contrast to the talk with judy at the end before leaving.

I still stand by my opinion that it think Panam is someone I would truly love to meet and have a relationship in real life as opposed to the beta females I keep meeting who are just looking for a " man" to be head of the household, the alpha the one that always makes the first move with everything and is happy just being a follower with no fire or spirt of their own.
 
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This kind of threads are completely pointless, every romance option is unique and great in their own way, so almost every player can find someone he can relate to the most.

that could be said about any topic on this forum

Every thread and every post they are all subjective opinions on the game in general no matter how much people what to believe otherwise. some people think its a good game some don't it is a simple as that.

This is no different.

in context based on your response the forum in general completely pointless when you think about it.
 
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Oh you mean like all the planning in going after nash? Or for Judy her planning when you first meet Maiko?

V asks how do you plan to convince Maiko and Judy says by telling the trurth of what happened to Evelyn. V asks if that will cut it and Judy says "nope have to improvise". Yep really planned out.

BTW what's funny is she says to V that talking to Maiko is like 3D chess and don't let Maiko derail you. And then says she will do all the talking. Huh? During the talk Judy is shocked to hear that Maiko already knew about Evelyn (more planning). Maiko then says Judy was always unstable. And it ends with Judy saying "She totally blew us off". V has to say she needs time to think. If that was a plan it was less than paper thin.

My point wasn't that they thoroughly plan out stuff out like they're Batman, my point was that they do think before they act.

Also the point about Maiko doesn't stand. Judy didn't think Maiko knew what happened to Evelyn because she wanted to believe her ex still had some good in her. That if she knew about what happened to Evelyn then clearly she wouldn't let that stand unchallenged. To me it shows how much someone who you used to be close to can still get into your mind and work you over even though you know how they operate.
 
My point wasn't that they thoroughly plan out stuff out like they're Batman, my point was that they do think before they act.

Also the point about Maiko doesn't stand. Judy didn't think Maiko knew what happened to Evelyn because she wanted to believe her ex still had some good in her. That if she knew about what happened to Evelyn then clearly she wouldn't let that stand unchallenged. To me it shows how much someone who you used to be close to can still get into your mind and work you over even though you know how they operate.

So it's falty planning that your saying they do. they let emotion get int he way of facts and looking at alternatives. OK got it now.
 
So it's falty planning that your saying they do. they let emotion get int he way of facts and looking at alternatives. OK got it now.
I mean, all of Panam's plans worked out :shrug: Judy's initial plan also worked, but she didn't have the foresight to see what would happen in the future. But it's not like their plans were just fits of rage/emotion with no logic behind them whatsoever, Panam is actually a really good planner, Judy on the other hand had a decent plan (fitting the dolls with solo chips) but didn't have the logistics to sustain the takeover.
 
If getting people killed equals worked out then I guess you're right.



Yea and that got someone killed.
I mean people die in war and combat, it's inevitable. Sometimes the winning side even has more losses than the losing side, but at the end of the day they still won (Russia WW2). Everyone of the Aldecaldo's knew the stakes of the final assault on Mikoshi, they knew people were going to die, but overall the plan was a success because they successfully looted Arasaka and got V into Mikoshi just as they planned to do.

Judy's plan was initially a success because the Dolls successfully took over Clouds and expelled the management for a time, it however didn't last very long because they didn't have the resources to sustain/defend it independently. You can say she ultimately failed, but I wouldn't go as far to say that her plan was based purely off of emotion and had no logical or rational thinking behind it, as far as the takeover goes, she did what she planned to do, but like I said she lacked the foresight to be able to see that they wouldn't be able to sustain it against the now hostile Tiger Claws.
 
Judy's plan was initially a success because the Dolls successfully took over Clouds and expelled the management for a time, it however didn't last very long because they didn't have the resources to sustain/defend it independently. You can say she ultimately failed, but I wouldn't go as far to say that her plan was based purely off of emotion and had no logical or rational thinking behind it, as far as the takeover goes, she did what she planned to do, but like I said she lacked the foresight to be able to see that they wouldn't be able to sustain it against the now hostile Tiger Claws.

Judy's plan failed because she's short sighted. meiko at least thought in the long term.

judy's plan would have worked "IF" she fully analyzed the success of moxies and that is to have EVERY member of moxie become a combatant as a prerequisite. if EVERYONE inside clouds had the modified doll chip/operating system, they may have stood a chance against tigerclaws. but she only convinced 3 people, not knowing if the rest of the crew is onboard with the idea of fighting and dying for HER ideals. for all we know, it could have been a doll with similar thinking as meiko that cooperated with the tigerclaws in order to save their own skin.

also as judy mentioned, the modifications were trashed after the mission because she didn't want such a powerful tech to fall into the wrong hands... so clouds was essentially left ENTIRELY defenseless against ANY retribution from the tigerclaws.
 
What always bugged me with Judies quest for Clouds is V is a experienced Merc. He should have known the Tyger Gang would go on a warpath if someone messes with their turf. A independant Clouds would not be possible.
They would need the backing of a Gang like the Mox, or more then 2 Dolls with Combat programmming to even have a chance. It is a wonder that Judy got away without the Tygers hunting her down.

i did enjoy her Quests more. In my opinion it was more emotional and did not always revolve around Combat and no matter what we fail in the end, but atleast it ended with a Friend and quests that did not involve the usual
"kill them all Man, Women, Children, Salt their lands and burns their homes. Blood for the Blood God, Skulls for the Skull throne, feast on their flesh V" Quests
Where with Panam it seemed like we were Rampaging through the Badlands, had a emotional moment then went right back to butchering our way across the Countryside. Achieved every goal and faced no repercussions, except for Saul yelling at Panam and ignoring us.

That said, when the lead goes flying I rather have Panam at my side. She takes a Heavy Machine Gun bullet ricochet point blank and still keeps rampaging (later you can even see a scar). Judy I cannot see doing something like that. Throughout her quests I got the feeling she got no real combat or street experience.
 
Panam is a creative planner and leader, although with somewhat lax attitude towards risks involved.
Judy is very creative in technical fields but not really a leader material, which itself isn't surprising as most people aren't. Whole Clouds coup plan was built on sand from the start.
 
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