Why Viy must go

[quintivarium]

And what about something like: deathwish: strength this unit by 5
At the end of the round return this card to your deck

That might work, but it changes the card flavor pretty strongly — shifting it to be a lot like NR’s Royal Griffin (which, by the way, is rarely used).

I think I prefer a strict adrenaline condition (like 2 or 3) that still allows lots of uses but creates round control issues as well as flexibility of consumes. But this approach is clearly very delicate with a thin line between having virtually no effect to making the card unusable.

 

[EduFerraz]

Well, my entire post has been ignored.

You guys really whant to contest The win rate only because you hate that card.

Congratulations

 

[quintivarium]

Well, my entire post has been ignored.

You guys really whant to contest The win rate only because you hate that card.

Congratulations

Your post has not been ignored, but because you seem to have missed it, I will repost my response for the third time.

A card can be bad for reasons other than being OP — and Viy fits that category. When one card is highly binary, like Viy, it is bad. When one card redefines the entire meta, like Viy, it is bad. When one card removes strategy from play, like Viy, it is bad. When one card reduces deck variety more than it contributes to it, like Viy, it is bad. Not to mention that win rates have more to do with factions being imbalanced than individual cards.

This is not hate for the monster faction. (In fact, two of my favorite decks are MO.) It is not an argument that MO is overpowered. (It’s not.) And it is not a denial that monsters has been mistreated by a horrible overnerf to ethereal, and an indirect nerf to vampires through veil. It is an acknowledgement that a card needs adjustment for the good of the game, and an attempt to suggest ways that might be done.

 

[ReaperTek]

I think it was a mistake to give a deathwish strengthening Card to Monsters especially with the risk free Overwhelming Hunger Leader interaction and the additional amount of Consume Unit's around.

A Card like that would probably be more reasonable for Skellige Self wound where you're not able to instantly Consume it which at least gives the opponent the Chance to interact with it at some point.

As for the current Viy I think they should either reduce his strengthening to 1 or reduce his base Power drastically that way playing it would at least be less tempo and people wouldn't build a entire deck around one Card.

 

[quintivarium]

Thats not correct and you know it.

If we see the win rate, the best leader was ursine ritual, wich 90% its lippy/cerys. And you know viy its the favorite deck to win. Also, heatwave and curse of corruption already were been used in this deck

Also, if you see the other top 5 leader no one of them carry those cards because viy.

Precision strike its natural control and already has heatwave and curse of corruption
deadeye ambush - i really cant remember using those cards in this deck
Uprising - ok, this deck has yrden or geralt on it, but its fits perfect
patricidal fury - normaly its devotion warriors

only the 6th leader - lockdown - was made by face viy (but also works well agains ursine ritual, wich is the first in the list)

So where are the decks created only to counter viy? I cant see that. The decks wich use heatwave and curse of corruption already use it before viy

Good pro players are using they decks and winning, just as that. They are note creating especifics decks to counter viy, thats bullshit.


Viy deck its in 8th in the win rate and the explanation its simple, viy its not so superb as people think. And the numbers and winrate are there to show you., if you whant to context the numbers by your personal experience you can, but you know, or should know, thats is wrong

I will admit to using some hyperbole in the post to which you responded, but the point is obviously still valid. Far more decks now carry multiple tall removal cards than ever before. Prior to the last expansion, curse of corruption, Rivia, and Yrden were rare, Igni and Yrden never appeared in the same deck, and I had never seen spores played. Now all are common. Without experimentation, it would be hard to attribute all these changes strictly to Viy. For instance, Yrden is useful against Kolgrim, Gezras, the new targets for Vessimir: Tutor etc. But unlike these other new cards, Viy demands multiple tall punish except for a small handful of NG and possibly SK builds. And I can’t attribute the sudden rise in popularity of NG to Viy as some of it is unquestionably because NG has almost become playable again.

And as for your examples of leaders that allegedly naturally use tall removal, I can’t comment. I don’t have at hand preexpansion deck lists to check your claims. They don’t fit my memory, but that could be faulty. Anyway, meta decks for all leaders have significantly changed since the introduction of Viy, and I am now aware of no meta decks that do not use significant amounts of tall removal. Lippy decks can get by with less because they can use it twice. And not all play is or should be with meta decks.

I apologize for not responding to this post sooner. It was not out of disrespect, but because I do not have the necessary records to objectively show what I believe to be its falsehood. Even if I had kept perfect records of cards I encountered in every deck both before and after the expansion, it would only reflect one experience.

If you truly do not believe Viy decks require specific (otherwise awkward) card combinations to have even a chance, I challenge you to tell me how to defeat it without the lockdown leader ability (available to only one faction), at least two instances of tall removal (which remains generally anti synergistic), shenagins with the likes of Ihuarraquax (again not natural in deck design), or relying on extreme RNG.

 

[Damashiuchi]

I like the idea of tying the +3 to devotion. Or maybe adrenaline. I may be biased though because I think viy is the worst card ever produced (next to cat witchers )
It does give you the opportunity to create some very fun meme anti-viy decks full of resets and tall removal, though. Of course they lose against anything else, but the first time you pull a 60 point swing on the final card against a viy storm you will sit through 100 SK move garbage matches to do it again

 

[fil_faniki]

i think Viy its "ok" as it is, and the win rate shows it.

The viy deck is designed all thinking in that card, and if viy changes the deck and the card are deads.

Someone remember what happens to ethereal? People blamed so much about it that devs change the card and killed it.

With Viy will happen the same, if devs nerf the card it will kill it.

And its funny, its the only good MO card in this new expansion and everyone are blaming about it. Its always the MO faction. Why not nerf Gezdras? Or kolgrim? Or Saber-tooth? Or ivar? Or keldar.

Every faction has gained good cards, but always the MO needs to be nerfed.

If you see, the SC cards are ridiculous strong and no one is blaming about them

The winrate shows it because there are plenty of decks that are built PRECISELY to destroy Viy decks. Matchups being decided by the queue is NOT HEALTHY FOR THE GAME

 

[Markus_Wirth]

I already suggested some changes for Viy

Viy: Power 10, provisions 12
Adrenaline 3: Deathwish Shuffle Viy back to your deck then increase its base power by 3.
-> The initial power is increased by 2, but Viy gets an Adrenaline nerf as all the other new WotW best fraction cards have

Whispering Hillock
Play a Deathwish unit having a power of 10 or lower from your deck.
-> So you can basically tutor all the Deathwish unit but Viy only if it has not triggered her Deathwish before.

After reading the thread I would adjust these changes accordingly:

Viy: Power 10, provisions 12
Devotion: Deathwish Shuffle Viy back to your deck then increase its base power by 3 .
Adrenaline 2: Deathwish Shuffle Viy back to your deck then increase its base power by 3.

Whispering Hillock
Play a Deathwish unit having a power of 10 or lower from your deck.
Devotion: Play a deathwish unit from your deck ignoring the provision limit and gain Echo.

The player has basically 2 options:
1) He does not go for devotion and Viy will only work after adrenaline limit. In best cases he has the option to boost Viy 6 times. But then he must be very lucky with the cards and needs a third round.
2) He goes for Devotion with 3 tutors (Whispering Hillock + Naglfar) and has more potential for the other deathwish family in his deck.

 

[KaynOfNosgoth]

I didn't even bother reading through all the posts. I saw the title and i can tell it's someone who can't deal with Viy so they cry for nerfs already. I personally don't have much trouble with him but i can see how some people might find him a bit much to deal with so i suggest a small nerf to bring him more in line with the rest of the cards.

I have 2 suggestions as far as nerfs go:

1. Reduce the increase in power per deathwish from 3 to 2.
2. Could even reduce the increase in power to 1 per deathwish but increase the base power to 10 or 11 and reduce the provision cost to 10. This one i'm not so sure about... might kill the card since in order for this card to be good you need to build your whole deck around it and just 1 extra point per deathwish might not be worth it.

 

[Sensimilius]

It's a stupid card with a braindead simple effect. Just bloody do a complete rework or nerf it by like 2 points of base power and 1 point in strengthening.
For example, you can do something more exciting with it, like:

Viy: 7 power
At the end of your turn move to the opposite row and consume a random unit whose power is lower then the power of Viy.
Upon reaching 20 or more power lock self.

Idk like this is something I came up in 3 minutes. But it at least has some flavor to it instead being just cheap and powerful food for consumes. This actually plays into the lore of Viy which is a giant hungry monster which cannot be controlled.
I mean we already have cards that only exist to be consumed many times like Reunin, Dettlaf Higher Vampire (yes one of the most cool and interesting vampires in the Witcher lore is consume food lol) and now even Succibis.
And that's the problem, Viy doesn't even fill a unique category, it just jumps into an already existing category (consume food) with abnormal points that blow other cards in that category out the water.
In a perfect game this would be a rule:
Interesting and harder to pull off combos = MORE POINTS
Boring and very simple combos = LESS POINTS
But nope, this ain't the case here.

 

[croloris]

I agree with the original poster that Viy in its current state must go.

One of the Reddit suggestions was that Viy's deathwish ability be removed and the card have text the reads

"When this card is consumed....Shuffle Viy back to your deck then increase its base power by 3"

This helps two fold, in that Overwhelming Hunger no longer works with Viy, and you need to have a Consume engine stick around for a turn or Viy itself if you are using Deploy : Consume effects.

It seemed an elegant solution, but needs some actual testing though.

 

[fil_faniki]

Let's not hyperfocus on Viy though.
Imagine for a moment this exact Meta but without Viy. Think of the Witchers NR deck that has like 10 great plays. Viy is a bigger problem but not the only problem

 

[BartonFink]

I can live with Lippy decks having 60% win rates and ST movement not far behind; these decks can be countered by good play with well designed decks. Viy cannot: hence it must go.

I don't come across Viy decks that often. I don't tend to lose hope when I play decks with that but I'm not sure what my success rate is with them. Maybe it's worse than for regular decks.

Anyway, I think that with the deck that I play a lot, I'm a chance, so long as I've got last say or the right cards in round 3 or they've used up their leader ability and don't have any more of that fuel in their tank.

Those factors stack, so my odds probably aren't that good. I tend to lose hope when I play those Ske decks with that unit which damages itself and your units when you play them but its power...and that Ske unit is next to a unit which protects from being taking damage. That's OP. Much worse than Viy, I think.

 

[NotGaunterODimm]

Buff Syndicate and now Viy have to deal with both control factions NG and SY, which would weaken it considerably.

Syndicate lacks means in wining R1, mostly because the veil mechanism. Making bounty ignore veil would be a good direction. Or change current bounty card to "remove veil and apply bounty".

 

[vultusprime]

Why is Viy still here WHY WHY WHY? Will you please get rid of this stupid and ill conceived card which everyone hates.
Do you people understand how OP and unfair this card is, do you?

 

[InkognitoXI]

Honestly I would say Viy should be completely reworked as a SUPPORT card FOR deathwish, rather than a card TAKING OVER the job from an entire mechanic (and rendering all other deathwish cards in MO obsolete, for the fact that the comparison will always end up "Is Viy better or all the other Deathwish cards together"). Afterwards the Overwhelming Hunger nerf could be reversed and we might see a comeback of the good old Deathwish deck with cards like Miruna and Detlaff: Higher Vampire.

The idea that this Deathwish card is effectively anti-support to its own mechanic (and its viability) is fundamentally flawed.

Edit: One idea would be to make Viy similar to Vesemir: Mentor and buff all deathwish cards in one's hand, on their field and in their deck by 1 if consumed (and change the provisions to 10p).
At that point we would also have a strong incentive to play more deathwish cards, rather than always weighting Deathwish against Viy as the only deathwish unit in one's deck.

 

[Guest 4375874]

Honestly I would say Viy should be completely reworked as a SUPPORT card FOR deathwish, rather than a card TAKING OVER the job from an entire mechanic (and rendering all other deathwish cards in MO obsolete, for the fact that the comparison will always end up "Is Viy better or all the other Deathwish cards together"). Afterwards the Overwhelming Hunger nerf could be reversed and we might see a comeback of the good old Deathwish deck with cards like Miruna and Detlaff: Higher Vampire.

The idea that this Deathwish card is effectively anti-support to its own mechanic (and its viability) is fundamentally flawed.

Edit: One idea would be to make Viy similar to Vesemir: Mentor and buff all deathwish cards in one's hand, on their field and in their deck by 1 if consumed (and change the provisions to 10p).
At that point we would also have a strong incentive to play more deathwish cards, rather than always weighting Deathwish against Viy as the only deathwish unit in one's deck.

The entire point carry-over mechanic is what needs to be removed. I'm a MO player and I hate Viy and the same goes for the other cards ArchGriffin etc that had a similar design. Basically if you can't remove them somehow you automatically lose.

Viy can be changed to another ability. People have been complaining MO doesn't have any viable tall removal cards so make Viy that card. It destroys itself and the highest enemy unit or something like that :/

 

[InkognitoXI]

The entire point carry-over mechanic is what needs to be removed. I'm a MO player and I hate Viy and the same goes for the other cards ArchGriffin etc that had a similar design. Basically if you can't remove them somehow you automatically lose.

Viy can be changed to another ability. People have been complaining MO doesn't have any viable tall removal cards so make Viy that card. It destroys itself and the highest enemy unit or something like that :/

I disagree, carryover is not an issue if done right.
That being said I agree that MO still miss a decent tall-punish card and this might be an opportunity.

 

[OuterSpaceDoggo]

At least the Griffin needs some form of setup and can just be a reset/ heatwave target.
I liked an idea previously mentioned here, and would like to make Viy closer to the lore, a rampaging insect without control.
I woud lower it's starting strength to something like 4-5 and change it's ability to: " At the end of your turn consume a random unit, then move to the opponent side. " or something similar. Then you could add : " Adrenaline x, lock itself" or " Strength x: Lock itself" .

 

[Guest 4375874]

At least the Griffin needs some form of setup and can just be a reset/ heatwave target.
I liked an idea previously mentioned here, and would like to make Viy closer to the lore, a rampaging insect without control.
I woud lower it's starting strength to something like 4-5 and change it's ability to: " At the end of your turn consume a random unit, then move to the opponent side. " or something similar. Then you could add : " Adrenaline x, lock itself" or " Strength x: Lock itself" .

I dunno about that. MO has enough cards that are double edged sword. It's annoyingly draw dependent enough so to add more randomness while everyone else is getting guaranteed points is a no for me. Remember WOTW gave other factions terribly strong witchers and we just got Viy (the only decent card anyway).

As for Viy, it can also be countered by reset so not sure what you meant. Yrden would annihilate Viy decks but the problem is the current meta doesn't allow for it because he's not very useful against other decks at the moment. No one is teching against anything right now it's removal or bust. Whatever the case we can all agree Viy should be reworked along with several other over tuned cards they recently added.