[Spoilers] Very few of the quests have satisfying resolutions

[Ayinde_Palmer]

Agreed, every quest apart from the basic gigs are up in the air in the game. Maybe your goal as a writer shouldn't be to frustrate players but to make them satisfied?

It's incredibly telling that there is more satisfaction in random throwaway quests than the main plot and side stories.

Maybe the only quest that has a net positive outcome is river's sidequest as you save a bunch of kids.

in the writer's defense, that was a two part comment, right after that he says, or maybe I just fail to stick the landing. So he acknowledges that maybe hes just messing up. Which I would say is the case, Its not so much these have ambigoud endings as much as many of them seem to end mid sentence. That said, I don't think writers goals in a setting like this is to satisfy the reader, but cutting their stories before finishing them often is a problem.

 

[nadsh]

Ehh, the reality is Judy never accepted it was going to be rough. She had a feeling about the legend of Lizzie but glossed over the fact that lizzie Died, and probably a lot of other mox died taking control. And after that maintaining it. She quit on them after one set back. This is just a part of her character. She quit on clouds, quit on V, quit on NC. Not saying she didn't have reasons, but nothin V could do would make her not a runner. I kinda felt they gave her these character flaws to comment on idealists, which is a bit unfair to idealists, she didnt fail because of her ideals, she failed due to lack of commitment and poor planning.

BTW she removed the program? I never saw that, thats crazy. I guess she had to or they'd unconsciously kill clients... but you need security...

It's understandable for her to feel defeated and leave regardless of V's actions, given her personality and what happened with Evelyn. I mostly found it weird that the only option V has in the bathroom conversation is to brush off what happened at Clouds as if it was unimportant.

During the pizza evening planning she says she will remove it to make sure it won't end up in the wrong hands.

 

[Ayinde_Palmer]

Character is actually very good study of people going through stages of grief.

I think Judy is a good character, who makes decisions that match her character and the world. Just saying how things go for her are a result of who she is as a character, not really completely night city/circumstances. I accept she us who she is, but it is frustrating at times for the player, which is fine.

Post automatically merged: Feb 2, 2021

It's understandable for her to feel defeated and leave regardless of V's actions, given her personality and what happened with Evelyn. I mostly found it weird that the only option V has in the bathroom conversation is to brush off what happened at Clouds as if it was unimportant.

During the pizza evening planning she says she will remove it to make sure it won't end up in the wrong hands.

So yeah, apparently this is actually the right type of response in many relationships, Sometimes empty reassurance is best. Dunno if there'd have been a love scene if V says, yeah... you made a few mistakes. I've played that situation out wrong irl a few times. But maybe they should have gave the character that option.

 

[CS554]

I think Judy is a good character, who makes decisions that match her character and the world. Just saying how things go for her are a result of who she is as a character, not really completely night city/circumstances. I accept she us who she is, but it is frustrating at times for the player, which is fine.

I was trying to say, I didn't see writer commenting idealism in general. Context is important regarding how things progress. She is not a merc, she is braindance editor and artist in that regard. She has to have certain aspects, for her to be able to do that, to create something beautiful. What she did in Automatic Love is extremely brave from someone in her position.

She is far more than study of stages of grief. I expressed myself perhaps poorly, but that part of her story arch is about that, not movie or tv-series good but real life people good.

Frustration, it's sometimes positive. Who would we be, if we weren't?

 

[Grindders]

Either way, he gets crucified

Wait, are you sure?
I made a thread not too long ago where I compared the quest design of The Witcher 3 to Cyberpunk 2077

What happened to quest design in Cyberpunk 2077?

I can't believe not many people are discussing this. The Witcher 3 had great quest design. Almost all of the quests were logically connected and the developers constantly rewarded the player for improvisation with unique scenes and dialogues. For example, if you do few quests in Velen and then...

forums.cdprojektred.com

But I had no idea it is that bad in Cyberpunk. Why would this game even have choices in the dialogues if they don't affect anything?

 

[V_for_Valerie]

Wait, are you sure?
I made a thread not too long ago where I compared the quest design of The Witcher 3 to Cyberpunk 2077

What happened to quest design in Cyberpunk 2077?

I can't believe not many people are discussing this. The Witcher 3 had great quest design. Almost all of the quests were logically connected and the developers constantly rewarded the player for improvisation with unique scenes and dialogues. For example, if you do few quests in Velen and then...

forums.cdprojektred.com

But I had no idea it is that bad in Cyberpunk. Why would this game even have choices in the dialogues if they don't affect anything?

No, you can't talk him out of it. Your choices at the end of the quest pretty much amount to A) watching the crucifixion, B) hammering the nails in yourself, or C) opting out by leaving early. In every scenario, he gets crucified.

The only way to prevent the crucifixion is to actually attempt to complete the hit job that leads into this quest, but the game purposefully makes this ridiculously difficult so as to discourage the player from choosing this option.

 

[i-Czer]

In regards to the guys tweet, I'll just quote myself from a different thread.

I've just read that tweet about the ambiguous quest design.

Geeze, how much insult to injury can you put in one tweet? Stuff like that ticks me off.
Quest design like that is the equivalent of a politician talking forever without actually saying something. It's worthless and you regret the time you've wasted listening to them.

You don't like to be ambiguous, you're having either commitment issues or are simply bad at your job. Taking joy in frustrating people? Pretty sure that would warrant a psych eval...

Post automatically merged: Feb 2, 2021

But I had no idea it is that bad in Cyberpunk. Why would this game even have choices in the dialogues if they don't affect anything?

That's the big questions everyone is having and no one will answer.

 

[Split_seen]

I saw this yesterday, and yeah, I felt like it's very hard to swallow "I like to frustrate players with ambiguity" when so much of this game is obviously incomplete. There is a huge difference between leaving your audience wanting more by "frustrating them with ambiguity" and leaving your audience sad and disappointed because it doesn't make sense that there isn't more.

I know that Patrick Mills wrote both Dream On and I Fought the Law, and I think they're good examples of what I'm talking about...I can accept that we don't have a definitive ending to Dream On, because we're fighting a powerful, shadowy organization, and at least one of the people we're trying to help doesn't want us to interfere any further. With I Fought the Law, however, it doesn't really make sense that we just drop the investigation at that point, River seems like he wants to take it further, I'm sure that the Peralezes would be happy if you brought down Holt, and just ending there it feels like yet another example of cut content.

I actually do like ambiguous endings in some instances, but sometimes the story ends too soon or in an unsatisfying way, and just telling us "it's ART" doesn't work for me. If your purpose is to be provocative, ending your art with a tepid, confusing finale isn't daring, it just makes us think that you ran out of time or couldn't think of anything better. And with Cyberpunk 2077, knowing how much is still unfinished in this game, ambiguity just seems like another excuse.

I completely disagree with all of the opinions you laid out in your posts. After reading them I got to thinking about what kind of game you would have liked this to have been, and honestly I'm glad it turned out different from your expectations.

Sorry, but in case anyone from CDPR is reading this - crowds of annoyed and pissed off gamers are a sign you probably did something right.

 

[Ninivekha]

crowds of annoyed and pissed off gamers are a sign you probably did something right.

Annoyed players don't buy games....

 

[Zannen_Desune]

Agree with OP on all points. My theory is that, since it has been confirmed that the game was rushed to completion, what we are seeing are quests/gigs that were meant to lead somewhere and the developers never had a chance to finish out their lines. As an example, there's a random crime wherein you have to rescue a bunch of 6th Street Gang-members being held captive in an underground space. On location you come across an in-ground pool that has been retrofitted to accommodate 4 "pods." Based on the shard you find onsite, you can assume that these are either part of a network of servers or are meant to store the bodies of people who's consciousness has been kidnapped and are being held for ransom. This is not the only random crime you encounter in the game that hints of technology being out there which can separate or reunite a conscious person from their body, but then... nothing comes of any of them. To me, it felt like this was leading to a alternate ending option which is not currently available, one in which maybe both V and Johnny might survive "in the real." It's a small example but one of hundreds you encounter in the game that hint at larger, more immersive development for which the game developers were not granted ample time.

I sincerely hope future DLCs rectify this. The game is expansive and I genuinely enjoy it, but there are so many things that only work to highlight what's missing and it's impossible to ignore the parts that feel lonely or unfinished.

 

[i-Czer]

in the writer's defense, that was a two part comment, right after that he says, or maybe I just fail to stick the landing. So he acknowledges that maybe hes just messing up.

Maybe I misunderstood your text, but the writers reply to his own tweet is him trying to be edgy and ambiguous again. Nothing more. Trying to hammer the point home. Just like saying "Department of Redundancy Department"

Post automatically merged: Feb 3, 2021

Crowds of annoyed and pissed off gamers are a sign you probably did something right.

Bold statement considering how well that turned out for Biowares last 2 games for example.

Post automatically merged: Feb 3, 2021

Annoyed players don't buy games....

Exactly ^^

 

[Zannen_Desune]

Maybe I misunderstood your text, but the writers reply to his own tweet is him trying to be edgy and ambiguous again. Nothing more. Trying to hammer the point home. Just like saying "Department of Redundancy Department"

Post automatically merged: Feb 3, 2021

Bold statement considering how well that turned out for Biowares last 2 games for example.

Post automatically merged: Feb 3, 2021

Exactly ^^

Yeaaaah... Controversial take but I can't honestly see how angering the majority of your customer base constitutes a sound plan of action...

 

[i-Czer]

Yeaaaah... Controversial take but I can't honestly see how angering the majority of your customer base constitutes a sound plan of action...

Not really a controversial opinion. Common sense alone will tell you that it's a bad idea. But, this is the gaming industry. Different rules apply. Sadly.

But let's take the so called "Roadmap" at face value. No mention of the planned story expansions that where already locked in for the launch.

That 2 month delay for the major patches caused those plans to change in such a significant way that the already locked in expansions are pushed back over a year. 2 months delay causes more than a year delay? Sounds.. hinky.

My guess is that they'll be postponing them indefinitely for some marketing reason banking on the fact that gamer memory is as short as that of a goldfish. Not to mention that their proper Next Gen Versions won't be any GOTY Editions that include all the DLCs (payed and otherwise). I think they will put all their eggs in one basket which is the MP.

 

[Zannen_Desune]

Not really a controversial opinion. Common sense alone will tell you that it's a bad idea. But, this is the gaming industry. Different rules apply. Sadly.

But let's take the so called "Roadmap" at face value. No mention of the planned story expansions that where already locked in for the launch.

That 2 month delay for the major patches caused those plans to change in such a significant way that the already locked in expansions are pushed back over a year. 2 months delay causes more than a year delay? Sounds.. hinky.

My guess is that they'll be postponing them indefinably for some marketing reason banking on the fact that gamer memory is as short as that of a goldfish. Not to mention that their proper Next Gen Versions won't be any GOTY Editions that include all the DLCs (payed and otherwise). I think they will put all their eggs in one basket which is the MP.

I agree with your points but I'm holding out hope that, given the negative feedback and returns, the people in high-level administrative positions will recognize that DLC is their only way to recoup some of that lost profit and the designers will then be given the opportunity to actually flesh the game out as I'm sure they intended... We can only hope that in this one instance, capitalism works in favor of creativity.

 

[i-Czer]

Not really a controversial opinion. Common sense alone will tell you that it's a bad idea. But, this is the gaming industry. Different rules apply. Sadly.

But let's take the so called "Roadmap" at face value. No mention of the planned story expansions that where already locked in for the launch.

That 2 month delay for the major patches caused those plans to change in such a significant way that the already locked in expansions are pushed back over a year. 2 months delay causes more than a year delay? Sounds.. hinky.

/E

My guess is that they'll be postponing them indefinitely for some marketing reason banking on the fact that gamer memory is as short as that of a goldfish. Not to mention that their proper Next Gen Versions won't be any GOTY Editions that include all the DLCs (payed and otherwise). Because those are set to come this year. I think they will put all their eggs in one basket which is the MP and hopefully fail measurably with it. Which brings us back to Gamer Memory and the gaming industry having no place for common sense. FOMO is a real thing here and that's what they'll exploit as best as they can. To the moon...

Post automatically merged: Feb 3, 2021

I agree with your points but I'm holding out hope that, given the negative feedback and returns, the people in high-level administrative positions will recognize that DLC is their only way to recoup some of that lost profit and the designers will then be given the opportunity to actually flesh the game out as I'm sure they intended... We can only hope that in this one instance, capitalism works in favor of creativity.

In their eyes they haven't lost anything. Just look at how much focus they've put on the PC Version being a 9/10 10/10 game. Despite both the user and review scores being the wrong way around. Not to mention both are pretty low. Which also lets me doubt that anyone in charge will do anything. They are removed from reality. They don't even bother to engage with people in their own community Forum. If anything they'll be picking their new Focus Groups in such a way that it serves their goals best. Heavens forbid they'll subject themselves to any more criticism or own up to what they've done.

If anything they'll be loosing money with the next games. But not this one. This one is f'd and will probably stay this way. And I don't think it'll become a cult hit because modders fix it like Bloodlines.

 

[Zannen_Desune]

/E

My guess is that they'll be postponing them indefinitely for some marketing reason banking on the fact that gamer memory is as short as that of a goldfish. Not to mention that their proper Next Gen Versions won't be any GOTY Editions that include all the DLCs (payed and otherwise). Because those are set to come this year. I think they will put all their eggs in one basket which is the MP and hopefully fail measurably with it. Which brings us back to Gamer Memory and the gaming industry having no place for common sense. FOMO is a real thing here and that's what they'll exploit as best as they can. To the moon...

Post automatically merged: Feb 3, 2021

In their eyes they haven't lost anything. Just look at how much focus they've put on the PC Version being a 9/10 10/10 game. Despite both the user and review scores being the wrong way around. Not to mention both are pretty low. Which also lets me doubt that anyone in charge will do anything. They are removed from reality. They don't even bother to engage with people in their own community Forum. If anything they'll be picking their new Focus Groups in such a way that it serves their goals best. Heavens forbid they'll subject themselves to any more criticism or own up to what they've done.

If anything they'll be loosing money with the next games. But not this one. This one is f'd and will probably stay this way. And I don't think it'll become a cult hit because modders fix it like Bloodlines.

All true. Maybe there is some hope in how much is left unexplored in the game? Maybe the people in power were hoping this would the the opening salvo for a franchise of games and they'll try to salvage at least a potential sequel by pushing their staff for expanded content??? IDK, I am an unrepentant optimist, lol.

 

[V_for_Valerie]

I think they will put all their eggs in one basket which is the MP

Gah, I hope not. I don't think I've ever been less hyped for anything than the prospect of CP2077 getting a multiplayer component. This is a singleplayer game that desperately needs some singleplayer DLC to make it worth playing again in future.

 

[Zannen_Desune]

/E

My guess is that they'll be postponing them indefinitely for some marketing reason banking on the fact that gamer memory is as short as that of a goldfish. Not to mention that their proper Next Gen Versions won't be any GOTY Editions that include all the DLCs (payed and otherwise). Because those are set to come this year. I think they will put all their eggs in one basket which is the MP and hopefully fail measurably with it. Which brings us back to Gamer Memory and the gaming industry having no place for common sense. FOMO is a real thing here and that's what they'll exploit as best as they can. To the moon...

Post automatically merged: Feb 3, 2021

In their eyes they haven't lost anything. Just look at how much focus they've put on the PC Version being a 9/10 10/10 game. Despite both the user and review scores being the wrong way around. Not to mention both are pretty low. Which also lets me doubt that anyone in charge will do anything. They are removed from reality. They don't even bother to engage with people in their own community Forum. If anything they'll be picking their new Focus Groups in such a way that it serves their goals best. Heavens forbid they'll subject themselves to any more criticism or own up to what they've done.

If anything they'll be loosing money with the next games. But not this one. This one is f'd and will probably stay this way. And I don't think it'll become a cult hit because modders fix it like Bloodlines.

True. At least in my experience, the people in power, no matter the end-product, are frighteningly removed from reality. ::sigh::

 

[i-Czer]

Gah, I hope not. I don't think I've ever been less hyped for anything than the prospect of CP2077 getting a multiplayer component. This is a singleplayer game that desperately needs some singleplayer DLC to make it worth playing again in future.

I couldn't agree with you more. And hope dies last, or so they say.
But once you apply common sense and some cold logic to the process... it gets hard to have that hope alive.
Especially if you ignore their process on the Witcher games. Considering how different the process has been so far that's necessary to do.

The tweets from last year are so conflicting it's impossible to apply them to what's happening this year. The only thing that seems to ring true is their statement that their are using Rockstar as a development role model. Especially since Rockstar is notorious for ignoring they player base.

My recommendation, get your refunds if you still can.

 

[Zannen_Desune]

Gah, I hope not. I don't think I've ever been less hyped for anything than the prospect of CP2077 getting a multiplayer component. This is a singleplayer game that desperately needs some singleplayer DLC to make it worth playing again in future.

Eh, I completely understand your concern. It would be a crying shame if the developers shifted their attention to multiplayer functionality before addressing the serious concerns/issues in the single player game. That said, as strong as I believe the single player storyline is, I must admit that, to me, the environment they've already crafted seems like it would be so fun to explore with friends, taking on specially-tailored MP missions, being able to meet and hang out with friends at Kabuki Market or at the Shinto Shrine.... IDK, sounds pretty cool to me.

I mean, first I would just love one single SP ending that didn't make me want to walk into the ocean with my pockets full of rocks but yeah, I'm not opposed to MP in the long run.