[Patch 1.1 Bug] Item randomisation broken (hotfixed in patch 1.11)

[Draedark]

By "as intended" I did not mean to infer perfect or flawless. I could agree that it is probably not possible for any system to be perfect, but I do feel it is very possible for a system to be capable of working as intended but still have some flaws.

Example: Working as intended (only a lucky few) But still has some flaws (able to be save scummed).

I meant "as intended" as in providing the desired effect the majority of the time.

I hope that makes sense.

Cheers Chooms.

 

[JoiJo]

By "as intended" I did not mean to infer perfect or flawless. I could agree that it is probably not possible for any system to be perfect, but I do feel it is very possible for a system to be capable of working as intended but still have some flaws.

Example: Working as intended (only a lucky few) But still has some flaws (able to be save scummed).

I meant "as intended" as in providing the desired effect the majority of the time.

I hope that makes sense.

Cheers Chooms.

Didnt realize by flaws you meant save scum/exploit. Thats a flaw that could have happened in the case of a loot system that doesnt leave the majority of players incredibly unlucky (those who didnt and dont use save scum). I thought you meant flaws in the way it randomizes items, specifically top tier unique ones, to the point of becoming incredibly uncommon in terms of quality. In CP quality=# of mod slots, strickly speaking of clothes, weapon system seems to be quite rewarding in both rarity AND slots (depending on the weapon class), buying ...and the cherry on top.. crafting specs; so we got plenty of those, one might say even too much. Clothing items,however, seem to fall short which gives the impression that its either a unpolished/unfinished part of the game or its missing one very crucial variable from being "as intended".

The loot sys could be working as intended and still be exploited. However the chances of player turning to "make the game do what the player wants" or "wi just wanna skip all the grind" would be lower since the system works as it should. AND if such an exploit still arises in "as intended" loot system scenario then yeah it should and usually IS removed for good.

If its providing the desired effect/results the majority of the time, and this one flaw it has (save scumming) is identified why remove it and then revert back to it ?
Makes sense what you are saying but disagree on that remark, save scumming isnt the flaw its a by-product of a already flawed system.

Cheers.

 

[msxyz]

First, I'm in favor of having reintroduced random loot because, with the way it's found in the game and the current rules, making it fixed is a solution worse than the problem.

But, is the armor / clothes accessories really important in this game? It is possible to one shot everyone our use hacks so powerful that even a character not specialized in melee / guns can waltz through an enemy infested area without receiving a single hit.

For my current playthrough, at the beginning of the game, I've created with the cyber console a set of clothes that I found to my liking in the past. Those who use the console may know that all the items created with the Game.AddItem command are at 'level 0', with an armor between 2 and 5. The only exception are legendary ones which have a slightly higher armor (up to about 25) and the usual random number of slots/mods. A separate script is needed to bring the clothes up to player level. But I'm not using it: I just wanted to dress my V the way I liked and I don't miss armor a bit.

I use a bit of everything: guns (only power, no tech or smart), stealth, hacks (no contagion, short circuit or suicide though: too OP), melee and fists. I've never felt the need of armor and now my char is around level 30. Matter of fact I've made a point of never being hit during a mission and, in the rare occasions in which it happened, I reloaded an earlier save. Even boss fights can be win without a scratch. With heavy mechanized enemies I use the level to provide me cover, with fast enemies like Zaria (the Cyber psycho in the Ritual) the key is to rush them with a long range blunt weapon, circling around them and the stun perk. Not very RPGish but the game is what it is...

 

[Hayte]

I'm finding that level scaling clothing is kind of broken in 1.11. Can someone do me a favour and check I'm not going mad?

Go to Rancho Coronado North waypoint:

To the south of the waypoint (where the green arrow is), there is an NCPD assault in progress. Kill all of the security guards but don't loot anything. Make note of the armour rating on the clothing that drops from the guards and any clothing in the nearby static container. Save game state, reload and check the item levels again.

If you kill them all while stationary (i.e. use cripple movement + legendary contagion passive + Rippler to root them all in place before you engage), you should get the same loot as me.

Weapons are fine and remain level scaled through save state but only long as they drop directly on the ground. There is a static container with a white clothing item (Punk Boostweave Biker Jacket for me) that also remains level scaled.

Its any item on the security guard's corpses that are reverting to level 1, which also downgrades the rarity to common/uncommon. This applies to both weapons and clothing inside the corpse container. Thats the only reason I noticed it. The blue items turned permanently white or green after 1 reload.

My observations: Items generated in corpse containers are level scaling correctly on first drop. Once the container exists in the gameworld, if you save and reload the game state, the items inside the container revert to level 1.

On first kill:

On saving game state, then reloading:

The visible corpse model appears to have moved during save/load state but this may just be the visible model, not the invisible container (which contains the loot). Save/loading seems to lift ragdoll objects off the ground and drop them back to earth - something you have all probably observed in your own playthroughs. That or you may have seen character models stand up or t pose before reaching the starting point in their idle animation (after which the animation cycles properly). I don't think it displaces the container.

 

[JoiJo]

I'm finding that level scaling clothing is kind of broken in 1.11. Can someone do me a favour and check I'm not going mad?

Go to Rancho Coronado North waypoint:

View attachment 11161649

To the south of the waypoint (where the green arrow is), there is an NCPD assault in progress. Kill all of the security guards but don't loot anything. Make note of the armour rating on the clothing that drops from the guards and any clothing in the nearby static container. Save game state, reload and check the item levels again.

If you kill them all while stationary (i.e. use cripple movement + legendary contagion passive + Rippler to root them all in place before you engage), you should get the same loot as me.

Weapons are fine and remain level scaled through save state but only long as they drop directly on the ground. There is a static container with a white clothing item (Punk Boostweave Biker Jacket for me) that also remains level scaled.

Its any item on the security guard's corpses that are reverting to level 1, which also downgrades the rarity to common/uncommon. This applies to both weapons and clothing inside the corpse container. Thats the only reason I noticed it. The blue items turned permanently white or green after 1 reload.

My observations: Items generated in corpse containers are level scaling correctly on first drop. Once the container exists in the gameworld, if you save and reload the game state, the items inside the container revert to level 1.

On first kill:

View attachment 11161691

On saving game state, then reloading:

View attachment 11161694

The visible corpse model appears to have moved during save/load state but this may just be the visible model, not the invisible container (which contains the loot). Save/loading seems to lift ragdoll objects off the ground and drop them back to earth - something you have all probably observed in your own playthroughs. That or you may have seen character models stand up or t pose before reaching the starting point in their idle animation (after which the animation cycles properly). I don't think it displaces the container.

if I still have this event available will check it out. Tho im on console not sure if that has an impact in terms of results.

 

[thkthk12]

Because its shit gameplay. I have save scummed a lot, mostly for discovery purposes. I wanted to know the rules of the game and how much I could bend them. I wanted to know if crafting was worth investing a third of my attribute points.

People don't save scum for no reason. Well designed systems do not break down when a few people poke at them.

Save scumming simply reveals the flaws in the game's loot generation mechanics - Where it is pseudo randomly generated, the method is not sufficiently unpredictable that a player cannot use pattern recognition to spawn repeat items.

If itemization is well designed, you shouldn't need to fix save scumming because there will be no reason to do it in the first place. Believe it or not, nobody does this for fun.

"Well designed" means procedural item generation is sufficiently unpredictable. Randomized loot is distributed and recurs in such a way that players do not feel irreversibly fucked if they loot a one of a kind item and it has bad stats. Because that was your only chance to ever get the item you wanted.

It means not waiting until level 40+ to loot anything unique because the upgrade cost is so insane that the only way to pay for it is to lean on a different kind of exploit - duplicating legendary samurai records at a machine vendor just so you can gather enough legendary crafting components to upgrade a single item by 40 levels.

The same logic applies to that exploit too. People don't dupe glitch for no reason. They do it because the game doesn't give you enough legendary crafting materials to keep even a single item at player level parity all the way from 1 to 50. Solve the underlying systems issue and the shit gameplay problem goes away by itself.

Hey so is it safe to update to 1.11? Did they end up reverting back without any other issues? I am still in 1.06 because I am not sure if I should update it.

 

[Midknyghte]

Not so much fixed. I am notcing a trend. If an item initially loads blue; quite often reloading the game will bring it up white....permanently.

 

[Hayte]

Hey so is it safe to update to 1.11? Did they end up reverting back without any other issues? I am still in 1.06 because I am not sure if I should update it.

Mods randomize correctly in 1.11 and you can save scum sockets (just like in 1.06).

The only issue in 1.11 I need to verify is corpse loot not level scaling after you reload game state.

I am also fairly sure static container loot is not randomizing in 1.1 and 1.11. Can't confirm in 1.06. I did rollback to 1.06 via GOG Launcher but all of my savegames black screen forever. However, I'm not convinced this is a bug and it may have always worked this way. Needs verification.

My observations in 1.11 are:

If you kill all the enemies and loot them, procedurally generated corpse loot is level scaled correctly. If you kill all the enemies, leave all the loot on the ground, quick save and then reload the game state, all the procedurally generated corpse loot (and only the corpse loot) will be rescaled to level 1. This can change rarity if the item level drops below the minimum required.

To elaborate: if an enemy drops a blue outer torso with 1 socket and 120 armour at player level 31 and you quick save/load before picking it up, then upon reloading the game state, this item will be either white or green, have 5 armour and no sockets. This is permanent. So you have to loot everything on corpses before you save/load game state otherwise all your corpse loot is going to be level 1. This affects vendor resale value. Static containers are unaffected. Weapons that drop on the ground are unaffected. Weapons that are inside the corpse container are affected.

As an aside, reloading game state seems to break a lot of things - top level perks, deadeye mod, cataresist etc. It is also breaks certain things like player and npc coordinates during cutscenes/dialogue, although I haven't had a showstopper yet.

One example is Ghost Town (Panam main job). After Rocky Ridge, there is a drive along to Nash's hideout. Only Panam can drive during this sequence. You cannot manual/quick save during the drive along but there are 2x autosave points. If you reload an autosave during this driving sequence, V will spawn in the driver seat, inside Panam's body mesh and the whole thing looks like a mess. 100% reproduction rate in 1.11.

So I think there are a lot of issues related to save files - the size of the file, the amount of variables that need to be tracked, recalling scalers, rng outputs, player and npc coordinates etc. Some of these aren't tracked at all and when they are, they don't recall to the correct prior value.

 

[KuroganeHammer]

I'm on 1.11. Been testing what Hayte has been mentioning above about enemy corpse loot not scaling after a save reload. Same NCPD Assault mission, had a guard with common pants and 30 ish defense. Saved, reloaded. Every enemy in the area fell down from a T-pose stance, as well as their weapons dropping from thin air, which usually happens when reloading and having dead corpse/available enemy loot in the area.

The pants have become level 1 and uncommon after reloading. I tried this on other missions and can confirm this is a bug with scaling that Hayte found out.

My biggest issue right now that other people have been experiencing even more in 1.11 is NCPD Assault evidence containers having the same scaling problem, except it doesn't necesarily trigger from save reloading. Finding various NCPD Assault evidence containers all around the city that contain nothing but Level 1 armor or weapons. Revolvers, Assault rifles, doesn't matter the type, they all have a whopping 5-6 damage.

Something that's been observed is that this issue seems to happen only after "The Heist" main job is completed. Also, I had noticed this Level 1 scaling on some evidence containers prior to 1.11, but it was quite rare, to the point it wasn't gamebreaking at all, unlike in 1.11, where I'm experiencing this on every Assault I encounter.

I tried a few ways to fix this problem but unsuccesful. Leaving the entire city district and coming back to give time for loot and ennemies to respawn, but didn't change anything. Containers still have Level 1 garbage. Also, this seems to only affect armor or weapons from these containers ; cyberware is always the same.

 

[Hayte]

I plan to catalogue the NCPD assaults in progress giving non level scaled loot, but it wont be until my third playthrough. I only noticed the pattern part way through my second playthrough so I have already done a bunch of them.

I don't believe it is connected to corpse loot level scaling on save/load since corpse loot is procedurally generated. As far as I am aware, NCPD assault containers have fixed loot and many of them just never level scale at all. We know corpse loot does level scale but save/load seems to break or reset the scaler.

I'm going to jog around in game for a bit and find another test case for corpse loot just to confirm its not isolated to the enemies in that one NCPD mission. If its game wide, I think another bug report is in order.

If you want to try doing the same thing, you want to look for groups of enemies that are stationary and do not patrol. If they do patrol, you need to kill them at points in the route where they stop moving, since the loot generated on their corpse is randomized by xyz coordinates. In all cases, you have to be able to root them in place or one shot them so they die at the exact same coordinates every time, otherwise you introduce randomness into your testing and it makes it harder to reproduce results.

 

[CactusMcFly]

I'm having the same issue. Re-rolling / save scumming makes items WEAKER!

http://imgur.com/WkYvZ4p

http://imgur.com/ehB2Qnp

 

[Hayte]

Can I confirm one thing CactusMcFly? Does the level scaling reset on the JKE-X2 Kenshin as well after save/load? Want to verify this is happening to weapons too.

As long as the weapon drops on the ground by itself, I believe it level scales correctly through save/load. However, everything inside the corpse container reverts to level 1 upon save/load.

 

[KuroganeHammer]

It shouldn't be too hard to catalogue bugged NCPD Assault loots, although it'll require to finish The Heist first. You can easily obtain Sandevistan operating systems and their mods (especially the -70% detection time one) and then storm through the whole city gathering the NCPD evidences without having to battle the ennemies present on site regardless of their threat level.

I will pick up my first play through again which I believe has some unfinished Assault and test if the save/reload scaling bug is present in them, while taking into account having to kill the ennemies when they are stationary. It's Panam's sniper time...

 

[Hayte]

The issue is documenting it in a structured way, since NCPD assaults don't have unique names or numbers. So if I were to run through all the NCPD assaults in Watson, I would number all the blue icons (including the organized crime activities) in ascending order going north to south, from left to right.

Then if someone else were to do Heywood and used a different naming/numbering schema it becomes a total disaster trying to track which item drops from which hustle and does it level scale?

I want to structure it so a person can look at a map, count logically from top to bottom, left to right and quickly see, this hustle in this district is number 3.6, it has a chest with broken level scaling.

On my second playthrough I was clearing ncpd hustles on the way to main and side jobs, so I didn't approach them in a particular order, therefore documenting it at this stage in my playthrough would just be a mess. I am on the main job "Play it Safe" so I am quite far into this run. Its honestly easier to just start a new game, pick a district, agree to use the same number schema, use Cyber Engine Tweaks + Edgerunner Bazaar to cheat your way to level 50 and give you legendary everything and then just bomb through them.

 

[KuroganeHammer]

I made a fourth character and I'm in "The Nomad" quest so I could use this character for testing. Good idea to structurally catalog the Assaults on the map, I think I can do with that. Or maybe use a line and column grid system on the map too ; NCPD Assault in C1-L4 has broken scaling for example.

Also, once you get out of Watson, even after visiting all districts, I believe you don't have access to all NCPD Assaults. Correct me if I'm wrong here, I know Street Cred gives you access to more gigs, but I'm pretty sure not all NCPD Assaults and reported crimes are available after The Heist and its not tied to Street Cred.

Post automatically merged: Feb 5, 2021

After further testing, I have noticed that the NCPD loot scaling bug does not seem to trigger on High and Very High level NCPD Assault missions:

Both of these were on High and Very High threat missions and they seem to be adequately scaled to my current Level (17, not shown on my HUD).
When doing low or moderate level threat missions, the weapons and clothes found in the containers are scaled to Level 1, no matter their rarity, weapon type, and clothing type.

As for the save/reload corpse loot, it seems to trigger even if the item is common by default:

 

[Hayte]

Where is that ncpd assault? I want to see if I can reproduce it with high/very high threat level.

 

[KuroganeHammer]

Where is that ncpd assault? I want to see if I can reproduce it with high/very high threat level.

South of "Republic East" Fast travel point, Arroyo. Keep in mind these labels change based on your level, so If this one doesn't show up as High or Very High danger, you might wanna do the same test I did with City Center Assaults, since those are the ones with the highest enemy levels in the game, and should be garanteed very/high danger if you didn't progress much in your current playthrough.

 

[Hayte]

After further testing, I have noticed that the NCPD loot scaling bug does not seem to trigger on High and Very High level NCPD Assault missions:

View attachment 11167640

Both of these were on High and Very High threat missions and they seem to be adequately scaled to my current Level (17, not shown on my HUD).
When doing low or moderate level threat missions, the weapons and clothes found in the containers are scaled to Level 1, no matter their rarity, weapon type, and clothing type.

As for the save/reload corpse loot, it seems to trigger even if the item is common by default:

Player Level = 26 before and after reloading game state:

Player level = 50 before and after reloading game state:

Observations:

1) This is a static container. For the purposes of identifying the different types of loot container in the game, it is not a "corpse" and at no point was that guy ever alive or an enemy that shoots back.
2) Threat level is irrelevant because it is not an enemy corpse.
3) Threat level does not make a difference and at no point was I able to get this loot to generate with level 1 stats on a level 26 and level 50 character.
4) The loot inside the container is not procedurally generated and is always an M-10AF Lexington and NCPD reinforced ballistic vest.
5) This loot always scales to player level. It also scales correctly on reloading game state.
6) The NCPD quest completion container is the satchel marked with an exclamation mark, not the body next to it. The satchel always has a Molodets Biohazard Grenade in it, so it is not a suitable candidate for testing level scaling NCPD assault rewards.
7) Enemy corpse loot initially scales to player level but as predicted, if you leave the loot on the ground, quick save and reload game state, these items will scale to level 1 as shown below:

Before save/load:

After reload:

Nevertheless, I think there is enough here to make a separate thread on this issue as it is not related to the 1.1 item randomization bug. However, if anyone is able to roll back to 1.1 or 1.06 and confirm this happens in previous patches, that would be very helpful. I would do it myself but the last time I tried it, my save games all black screened.

 

[KuroganeHammer]

Player Level = 26 before and after reloading game state:

View attachment 11167946
View attachment 11167949

Player level = 50 before and after reloading game state:

View attachment 11167952

View attachment 11167958

Observations:

1) This is a static container. It is not a corpse and at no point was that guy ever alive.
2) Threat level is irrelevant because it is not an enemy corpse.
3) Threat level does not make a difference and at no point was I able to get this loot to generate with level 1 stats on a level 26 and level 50 character.
4) The loot inside the container is not procedurally generated and is always an M-10AF Lexington and NCPD reinforced ballistic vest.
5) This loot always scales to player level. It also scales correctly on reloading game state.
6) The NCPD quest completion container is the satchel marked with an exclamation mark, not the body next to it. The statchel always contains a Molodets Biohazard Grenade in it so it is not a suitable candidate for testing level scaling NCPD assault rewards.
7) The corpse loot from enemies does initially scale to player level but as predicted, if you leave the loot on the ground, quick save and reload game state, these items will scale to level 1 as shown below:

View attachment 11167982

View attachment 11167985

Nevertheless, I think there is enough here to make a separate thread on this issue as it is not related to the 1.1 item randomization bug. However, if anyone is able to roll back to 1.1 or 1.06 and confirm this happens in previous patches, that would be very helpful. I would do it myself but the last time I tried it, my save games all black screened.

Well damn this is my own faulty observation on my first screenshot, I thought the corpse was the NCPD container indeed. I did not see the bag with the "!" symbol next to it.

If I find time tonight I'll go around the city and check a higher number of these missions to see if I am right or partially right about the threat level influencing the issue, because on my second screenshot, it was also a corpse, and it was the NCPD evidence, and the bat was scaled to my level.

 

[CactusMcFly]

Can I confirm one thing CactusMcFly? Does the level scaling reset on the JKE-X2 Kenshin as well after save/load? Want to verify this is happening to weapons too.

As long as the weapon drops on the ground by itself, I believe it level scales correctly through save/load. However, everything inside the corpse container reverts to level 1 upon save/load.

I can confirm that gun did the exact same thing upon loading. Damage went from 200-something to like 72.