So what are you switching Justice to? (Or aren't you?)

[ya1]

Pretty much the title.

Personally, I just drop ST altogether. Novigradian Justice was kinda too strong but the nerf was bad imo. NG got the Bratheens and the Joachim+Coup, Kelly got the Yghern+Ozzrel, SK got [any SK gold] and NR got the pointy witchers. ST got nada at this point. Justice was the only great point slam, it also happened to be kinda op as a consistency card in one, but it was needed especially for control ST. I've seen people trying to hold on to it by including Zoltan Company, the defender, etc. IMO tho it needs to go. But what for?

So, I think the consistency nerf to all ST decks will have to be swallowed. No way around it. But ST needs that one big tempo play or it crumbles, or at least the controly-no-unity decks. Nature Gift can grab Eleyas. What could serve as a backup Justice for decks such as PS control (Sheldon/Madoc/whatever)? Indeed a conundrum. Any ideas?

 

[Madlax1992]

I haven't dropped Novigradian Justice from ST though. It is still a very good card that provides point-slam but it now requires some setup, which I think is a reasonable nerf IMO. I still use NJ with the Volunteers and play Pyrotechnician to spawn the shielded dwarf. I would not exclude it from SY either, as decks that make use of it has quite a few Crownsplitters.

Reasonable as it is, this nerf was a little bit uncalled for. Viy was barely nerfed. It is still oppressive and exasperating to play against it unless your play NG Lockdown. NG went through several months of being essentially a useless faction and it barely managed to become slightly more competitive with the Coup buff and then the Witcher expansion. The problem is some of its leaders, namely Lockdown. That is something that needs to be addressed a bit as almost all other factions and archetypes are built to interact with the leader ability.

ST is still very strong even with the nerf to NJ. I play a Deadeye Ambush deck with Feign Death, the Elf/movement package, some of the new Witcher cards (Gaetan, Gezras, Cat Witchers) and 4 dwarfs + NJ. In my last 10 games I lost only one to a deck built similarly but with Guerilla Tactics as leader. The amount of points you get with cards such as Dol Blathanna Sentry, Dryad Matron, Cat Witcher, Gezras, Gaetan + Location is simply stupid.

 

[Messyr]

Literally any control card. If we are talking about PS ST decks, especially the Madoc version, you add some more control (usually the one you removed once you included the 10prov Madoc).
Yes, it is a clear tempo loss, especially for R1, but in all honesty, it was a bit too powerful. Although the nerf is tough, it definitely did not destroy the combo - you can still keep it for some decks. Paired with Pyrotechnicians as setup it is relatively safe still.

 

[Lokiat0r]

Depends on the deck, but for most I've added Pavko, Treat Boar, and Tempering. I thought about sacrificing some cards for cheap dwarves, but decided it wasn't worthwhile.

Worst case, Pavko and the Treant bait out removal / lock cards that would otherwise have targeted the core cards in my deck. Unanswered, they're a steady source of damage. Tempering provides one more Nature card for my Nature's Gift deck so it often plays for 8-10 points instead of the 13 I used to get from Justice while also having the benefit of only using 1 card slot in a long round instead of 3, as a long round with Nature's Gift ran the risk of running out of room to play cards (particularly against NG spies).

I definitely miss the thinning potential, not to mention the synergy with PS / Gaetan. I'm tempted to use Vernossiel and utilize Gaetan on the ranged row in my PS deck, but it doesn't have the same punch as moving melee->ranged with a DB Sentry on the board. I've had to adapt my PS strategy to playing longer rounds with Gaetan deploying later in them.

 

[DRK3]

I genuinely do not think the nerf was that big, it still costs the same, it still provides the same amount of points and thinning, the only condition is now you need a dwarf beforehand. I do think now NJ is more balanced. Also, there is no shortage of good cheap dwarves, its not like it forces you to do a full dwarf deck.

Im using it, and losing everytime, but that's because im using stupid Mahakam's Forge to try and complete its Mastery, honestly this leader is almost as bad as Invigorate.

 

[Madlax1992]

I genuinely do not think the nerf was that big, it still costs the same, it still provides the same amount of points and thinning, the only condition is now you need a dwarf beforehand. I do think now NJ is more balanced. Also, there is no shortage of good cheap dwarves, its not like it forces you to do a full dwarf deck.

Im using it, and losing everytime, but that's because im using stupid Mahakam's Forge to try and complete its Mastery, honestly this leader is almost as bad as Invigorate.

Exactly my thoughts. Pyrotechnician rarely gets removed anyway, so if I have this card, then I keep NJ too. Mahakam Marauders are also a good choice, although they might get answered a lot more often.

The nerf to NJ is reasonable and doesn't really break decks or factions. And it can be replaced with decent alternatives.

Agree on Mahakam Forge. Not as useless as Invigorate, but definitely a very weak leader, even if you play with a full Dwarf package. A couple of months back it was still decent. Could pull a few wins here and there with a good hand. Now it is underwhelming. The gold dwarf package needs some attention as well.

 

[quintivarium]

In one way the card was significantly improved as it now admits crownsplitters and not just dwarves. No help for ST, but greatly improves playability for SY

 

[Guest 4416545]

From my point of view it was an overnerf by far and i wont play deadeyes no more tho it was my fav deck last season.

The big issue with this change its st got nothing to thin at all, mv only works with dwarf wich in many archetype makes no sense to include, the other thin card without precision strike leader is very very bad, so the consistency is hillarous bad now, and yep st got hella of tutors but without leader symbiosis makes no sense to include.

The argue of pyrotecnic to enabel justice... meh, i dont see it at all, first thing u need pyrotecnic and justice in hand if not ur justice is a brick and feels horribel a 10p card to get some random 4p dwarf, even with it in hand and after played u better not press the BOOM button cause they will kill it for sure and yep justice turns into brick again, so u now are forced to play justice fast (and make a 14p move for no reason at all) or to hold the 4p damage from pyro to not get brick which again feels weird not killing an engine just in case ur dwarf gets killed. Btw today 2 lippy players kill my pyro with lugos in first turn just in case they brick my justice, and they did it ;(.

Oh, and u have to be aware too of not using dwarfs if u cant justice that round cause yes, again, justice could brick. You can add some more random dwarfs but atless with deadeye they synergize very bad.

So ye, for me its an overnerf, and i agree for sure that 14p + 2 thin was overpower but they should add some back up for this nerf like duno, turn any 5p card into something to thin, like "if u control 2 st units summon a copy" or similar.

 

[quintivarium]

From my point of view it was an overnerf by far and i wont play deadeyes no more tho it was my fav deck last season.

The big issue with this change its st got nothing to thin at all, mv only works with dwarf wich in many archetype makes no sense to include, the other thin card without precision strike leader is very very bad, so the consistency is hillarous bad now, and yep st got hella of tutors but without leader symbiosis makes no sense to include.

The argue of pyrotecnic to enabel justice... meh, i dont see it at all, first thing u need pyrotecnic and justice in hand if not ur justice is a brick and feels horribel a 10p card to get some random 4p dwarf, even with it in hand and after played u better not press the BOOM button cause they will kill it for sure and yep justice turns into brick again, so u now are forced to play justice fast (and make a 14p move for no reason at all) or to hold the 4p damage from pyro to not get brick which again feels weird not killing an engine just in case ur dwarf gets killed. Btw today 2 lippy players kill my pyro with lugos in first turn just in case they brick my justice, and they did it ;(.

Oh, and u have to be aware too of not using dwarfs if u cant justice that round cause yes, again, justice could brick. You can add some more random dwarfs but atless with deadeye they synergize very bad.

So ye, for me its an overnerf, and i agree for sure that 14p + 2 thin was overpower but they should add some back up for this nerf like duno, turn any 5p card into something to thin, like "if u control 2 st units summon a copy" or similar.

Most of what you’ve said here reinforces the developers’ justification for the card change: namely that the card is not intended as an auto include in EVERY deck, but rather as a good support card for SOME decks. And I think it would be good for the game to see a lot more of that — starting with Oneiromancy and Heatwave, although almost every faction has cards that could use the same treatment. When was the last time you saw an SK deck without Hemdall and Cerys? An MO deck without Yghern and Ozzie? An NR deck without Anna or an NG deck without Joachim? And this doesn’t even mention the numerous go-to bronzes or many other almost autoinclude golds.

The beauty of the adjustment to Justice is that it has perfectly achieved the developers’ objective: it left a valuable card that is not ubiquitous. If only handling other cards could be so easy, we would see a lot more deck variety.

Now, it is fair to argue that certain non-dwarf archetypes need help with thinning options or with tempo plays. But I think the Justice change is generally a step in the right direction.

 

[OuterSpaceDoggo]

Not switching, it still works nice in ST dwarf deck, providing both thinning and points.

 

[Madlax1992]

From my point of view it was an overnerf by far and i wont play deadeyes no more tho it was my fav deck last season.

The big issue with this change its st got nothing to thin at all, mv only works with dwarf wich in many archetype makes no sense to include, the other thin card without precision strike leader is very very bad, so the consistency is hillarous bad now, and yep st got hella of tutors but without leader symbiosis makes no sense to include.

The argue of pyrotecnic to enabel justice... meh, i dont see it at all, first thing u need pyrotecnic and justice in hand if not ur justice is a brick and feels horribel a 10p card to get some random 4p dwarf, even with it in hand and after played u better not press the BOOM button cause they will kill it for sure and yep justice turns into brick again, so u now are forced to play justice fast (and make a 14p move for no reason at all) or to hold the 4p damage from pyro to not get brick which again feels weird not killing an engine just in case ur dwarf gets killed. Btw today 2 lippy players kill my pyro with lugos in first turn just in case they brick my justice, and they did it ;(.

Oh, and u have to be aware too of not using dwarfs if u cant justice that round cause yes, again, justice could brick. You can add some more random dwarfs but atless with deadeye they synergize very bad.

So ye, for me its an overnerf, and i agree for sure that 14p + 2 thin was overpower but they should add some back up for this nerf like duno, turn any 5p card into something to thin, like "if u control 2 st units summon a copy" or similar.

Nothing of sort. This nerf was needed, as NJ was an auto-include in almost all ST decks which was a bit ridiculous. It was almost always used in conjunction with Volunteers, slamming 13 points minimum without any conditions.

IMO it isn't even a nerf so to say, it just forces you to build up in order to gain maximum value out of it. If only the devs were capable of placing such conditions on other cards as good as they did with NJ.

 

[fil_faniki]

I'm back to packing Stunning Blows just to one-shot Pyrotechs now

 

[Guest 4416545]

First thing first, i saw spyroza running maxii to give some consistency to deadeye and for sure it does, it feels great again, so yes cdpr u can nerf nj all u want but u wont never be abel to nerf netdeckers. So that, wanted to share it in case someone was givin up on beautiful vernasio like i was.

Now madlax and quintin, like i never wanted to mean that the change wasnt need it or something similar, like i fully agree with you guys on that, i always thought it was op, the key thing for me its st got not thin at all unless u playing dwarfs or running ps leader, and thats why i say its an overnerf and they should have provided some thining tool to st with this change.

Tho i fully disagree on this "it just forces you to build up in order to gain maximum value out of it ", unless u playing dwarfs meeting the condition of nj its just feel weird and hella bad as i say on the other post, and even the developers say it on the text below they wanted nj just for dwarfs and crimes.

I'm back to packing Stunning Blows just to one-shot Pyrotechs now

lol

 

[ya1]

If only the devs were capable of placing such conditions on other cards as good as they did with NJ.

And in this sentence you contradict yourself. Devs didn't do it with other cards which is exactly why this is such a huge nerf: other factions keep their flexible high-end tempo plays and ST don't.

Not switching, it still works nice in ST dwarf deck, providing both thinning and points.

So switching to a dwarf deck? Good luck. It would be nice if dwarves got stronger but that won't happen just because other ST decks got so much weaker. Same thing they did with Imperial Formation. They nerfed it to zero saying it's too popular. Did they hope that other NG leaders magically get better?

unless u playing dwarfs meeting the condition of nj its just feel weird and hella bad

Yeah... The whole point of Justice into Volunteers was to override the Volunteers' condition. Now Volunteers are like Impera in NG - you gotta build around the tag, and non-dwarf ST got no thinning.

 

[OuterSpaceDoggo]

Never said that a dwarf deck would be strong, it's just a deck that you play when you are bored or want to chill that just requires to play one dwarf after another without thinking. In that sense it plays exactly like any other retarded meta decks that people spam everywhere thinking they are actually gOoD at this game
Back to NJ, I think they just wanted to buff SY a bit and not it is more a SY card than a ST card and I'm fine with that.
What i'm not fine with is the lack of support for any other archetypes in ST ( traps?, harmony? ) and the same can be said about most of the factions.

 

[ya1]

Back to NJ, I think they just wanted to buff SY

You can pull the Safecracker now but it's still a nerf even to SY. You still need draw one Safecracker and have him stick or Justice bricks. The other wholesome two bronze dwarves/crownsplitters were already powercrept last decade...

So in conclusion, no thank you. Justice is being dropped from crimes and congregate just as well.

 

[Barracuda88]

As ST main, I agree that NJ was a little too autoinclude, but that was less because it's so OP and more because it was the ONLY GOOD proactive tempo/thinning play ST had pretty much. So this nerf was just bad, because nothing was given to non-dwarf ST to replace it. There's no proactive tempo replacement, so you can't resist abuse or push round 2. There's no thinning replacement, because volunteers had their own condition already and will now brick in non-dwarf decks as well (and the sentinel are a TERRIBLE thinning option in a non PS deck). And yeah, the card can still work, but the risk of bricking is just too high for higher level competitive play. I'm guessing this "minor" nerf will ripple through ST faction winrates hard. But hey, at least the dev fixed that poor sad Viper Mentor...

EDIT: and to answer the OP question, you probably replace it with Call of the Forest, and volunteers with another pair of 5s depending on the deck. That doesn't replace the tempo, but that's about the best you can do imo

 

[ReaperTek]

While I agree that NJ was to good and because of that a auto include in Scoia'tael Decks and that something needed to be done about it but i'm not so sure that this nerf was the right way to solve this issue especially considering the increased amount of removal heavy no unit decks leading to some matchups in which almost everything you play gets removed instantly which makes NJ only "safely" playable in a all Dwarf Deck or in Syndicates Case being played by Ferko because without a Dwarf on the Board it now plays for a pathetic value for a 10 Provisions Card.

I think it would had been better if they just reworked Mahakam Volunteers in to something different and switch the thinning ability to a currently awful bronze Card called Blue Mountain Elite (it was also a thinning Card during OB) obviously with the requirement to have a Elf on board in that case they could have might also returned NJ to it's former Skill (Play a bronze unit from your deck. If it was a Dwarf, Spawn a copy of it and Summon it to the same row.) which was reworked because of the unhealthy Mystic Echo interaction back than.

 

[Markus_Wirth]

From my perspective I really appreciate the nerf of NJ.
After the nerf my very old Symbiosis deck has enough provisions for Gezras and is actually doing better than with NJ.

 

[radesign]

A bit of setup is not that bad.
There are some nice dwarves, like handbuff dwarves, that you may play for setup.

But I wish, that all factions got "required setup" to their major power swings.

Espiecially Skellige - as 2 leaders can trigger Cerys (not counting twice).
Either Sheildmaiden or Cerys should get Order:

As well as removing Formation from Viraxas.

Or other one-sided combos.

Scoiatael combos all require long setups - Oak, Witcher, Boosty-elf, Damagy-elf, and so on.

This was only non-conditional tempo play...