[Spoiler Alert] About the endings

[exxxed]

Dunno, maybe coz 30% of audience after 2,5 mo finished 13h long MQ?

So you're telling me only 26 percent of the audience is interested in fantasy political fiction because that's how many finished The Witcher 3?

Or maybe post apocalyptic dystopia since that's how many finished Fallout 4 and ELEX...

Nah, it's fallacious reasoning, it would have worked if it were a linear narrative driven FPS game because then there's no other option than to advance the plot.

It sold because of TW3 Lets see how those numbers will look for next CDPR game

Irrelevant to the discussion at hand and interjecting your own displeasure with the game in it doesn't do anything.

I was purely talking about the statistics surrounding it based on player numbers and percentages.

But also a lot of people agree with me or consider those endings a cliffhanger Since this is major release this shouldn't provoke so polarizing views.
And if they are a cliffhanger, it's just a next open world game, with little grimdark to find. MC will survive by this time bullet between the eye, time bomb/biochip and plot cancer, most side characters will be just fine. I'm fine with this.

Disliking the endings has nothing to do with the completion rate or the fact that you keep calling it grimdark while also disregarding the fact that grimdark is a genre of fiction created purely to contradict idealized fantasy tropes in literature, it's usually hopeless, morally gray, manipulative, deceptive etc.

Cybeprunk in general is not grimdark, and this game is not an exception.

Addendum:

https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/CyberPunk

 

[GVArcian]

just out of curiosity, how many of us here have basically written massive interconnected replacement endings in our minds that actually fit better into cp2077 then what we actually got? as to the last bit it's only my humble opinion that says it's better then what we got, but, if i put it to paper it would be like a short novel in size... so, i guess i have to put my hand up. lol

Well... I'm okay with the endings mostly as they are, what I take issue with is the justification for why V is predicted to die in 6 months - namely, the whole "DNA factor"-thing. Nowhere in the rest of the game is the Relic described as rewriting the entire genome of its user, that's something that comes straight out of left field either in Mikoshi or in the Devil ending epilogue.

So the mental rewrite I came up with was this:

A far more reasonable explanation as to why Johnny can survive in V's body but V can't, would be that Johnny's engram transfer is close to completion and thus isn't as physically damaging to to V's brain (since most of the damage has already been done, so to speak), whereas starting a new engram transfer with V's engram would require rewriting the neural tissue already damaged by Johnny's engram transfer, which would compound injuries and (presumably) make them unsurvivable.

Actually, allow me to greatly simplify what I mean:

Let's say the brain has a health bar of 100%. When the brain's health bar reaches 0%, the brain dies.

When an engram is written into the brain, the brain loses a certain % of health due to the invasive nature of the rewriting process... let's say 80%, for the sake of the argument.

By the time V jacks into Mikoshi, Johnny's engram transfer is mostly done, and V's brain has 50% health left.

If Johnny's engram transfer is allowed to finish, V's brain will still have 20% health left when it is done, which means it will still be alive and can heal back its lost health over time. Johnny can thus survive in V's body.

But if Johnny's engram transfer stops and V's engram transfer starts, V's engram transfer still costs 80% health... but their brain only has 50% health left, meaning the brain will hit 0% health and die long before the engram transfer is complete. Hence why V can't survive in their own body.

The outcome of this scenario is exactly the same as the one in the game's endings, only this one doesn't have to illogically introduce DNA as a factor to force the game's binary ending choices.

 

[Naglafar2183]

There's also that whole cutting edge treatment for MS that you hear about on N54. I keep going back to that in my mind. That tech has got to be able to help V somehow (even as a bying-some-time option).

My money is on Stormtech, as I've said before. They developed secret nanotech/biotech tech with the nomad nations years ago, and have an office on the crystal palace.

Post automatically merged: Feb 20, 2021

So you're telling me only 26 percent of the audience is interested in fantasy political fiction because that's how many finished The Witcher 3?

Or maybe post apocalyptic dystopia since that's how many finished Fallout 4 and ELEX...

Nah, it's fallacious reasoning, it would have worked if it were a linear narrative driven FPS game because then there's no other option than to advance the plot.



Irrelevant to the discussion at hand and interjecting your own displeasure with the game in it doesn't do anything.

I was purely talking about the statistics surrounding it based on player numbers and percentages.



Disliking the endings has nothing to do with the completion rate or the fact that you keep calling it grimdark while also disregarding the fact that grimdark is a genre of fiction created purely to contradict idealized fantasy tropes in literature, it's usually hopeless, morally gray, manipulative, deceptive etc.

Cybeprunk in general is not grimdark, and this game is not an exception.

This is shamelessly ripped from Wikipedia, but I think it describes cyberpunk better than grimdark - cyberpunk in general is NOT grimdark.

In 2017, the writer Alexandra Rowland proposed that the "opposite of grimdark" is "hopepunk", a literary trend that emphasizes what grimdark rejects: the importance of hope and the sense that ideals are worth fighting for despite adversity.[11][10] The novelist Derek B. Miller defined hopepunk as "stories that free the soul from darkness. That necessitates situating the characters and action in a dark world and then directing the drama and activity towards the light. Whether they reach it or not is part of the story

That is how'd I'd describe 2077 and any good cyberpunk story. It also fits in with Pondsmiths philosophy.

 

[wright1978]

just out of curiosity, how many of us here have basically written massive interconnected replacement endings in our minds that actually fit better into cp2077 then what we actually got? as to the last bit it's only my humble opinion that says it's better then what we got, but, if i put it to paper it would be like a short novel in size... so, i guess i have to put my hand up. lol

Currently i'm diving back into the TW3 to entertain myelf and have left Cyberpunk and its terrible & grimdark endings to sit in a dark corner, in the hope that there will be a post game expansion eventually.

 

[GVArcian]

There's also that whole cutting edge treatment for MS that you hear about on N54. I keep going back to that in my mind. That tech has got to be able to help V somehow (even as a bying-some-time option).

It's rather interesting that Alt describes V's post-Mikoshi death sentence as a result of their immune system attacking their brain's neurons, when that is exactly how MS works. And BioDyne's MS treatment works by injecting nanites into the spinal cord to repair the neural damage caused by the disease.

 

[larrackell]

My money is on Stormtech, as I've said before. They developed secret nanotech/biotech tech with the nomad nations years ago, and have an office on the crystal palace.

After reading about it, I agree. That makes a lot of sense. That's like a blinking neon sign of a viable possibility.

 

[Guest 4412420]

You can solve medical issues with tech, it is a cyberpunk universe after all.

You're right but I don't think the kind of tech that could solve V's issue is the kind Judy knows how to operate or even has the means to get an access to. Feels a little bit like putting someone who made a VR headset in charge of a brain surgery.

 

[larrackell]

It's rather interesting that Alt describes V's post-Mikoshi death sentence as a result of their immune system attacking their brain's neurons, when that is exactly how MS works. And BioDyne's MS treatment works by injecting nanites into the spinal cord to repair the neural damage caused by the disease.

So there's nuggets for the future. There's so many possibilities. We're definitely getting the "true" ending in a DLC or expansion or however CDPR does their extra content.

 

[OG_VELI]

Well... I'm okay with the endings mostly as they are, what I take issue with is the justification for why V is predicted to die in 6 months - namely, the whole "DNA factor"-thing. Nowhere in the rest of the game is the Relic described as rewriting the entire genome of its user, that's something that comes straight out of left field either in Mikoshi or in the Devil ending epilogue.

As much as I dislike that whole "DNA" thing, it might be there just for the sake of paving the way for a continuation. Because why else would they invent such a thing just in the endings, you know?

 

[Barsenthor]

So you're telling me only 26 percent of the audience is interested in fantasy political fiction because that's how many finished The Witcher 3?

Or maybe post apocalyptic dystopia since that's how many finished Fallout 4 and ELEX...

Nah, it's fallacious reasoning, it would have worked if it were a linear narrative driven FPS game because then there's no other option than to advance the plot.

Reasons why MQ of CP77 was "shortened" was because only 26% of players finished MQ of TW3, and this is ratio. Numbers are almost the same despite that story last only for 13h.
Plus last mission is only 1-2h long, and still 10% of players didn't want to finish it.

Irrelevant to the discussion at hand and interjecting your own displeasure with the game in it doesn't do anything.

I was purely talking about the statistics surrounding it based on player numbers and percentages.

Ok, but the reason why CP77 sold well was due to TW3, you can't say that this is a success of CP77 of it's own.
Not to say that TW3 sold 26 milion copies, CP77 13 and this was both before full blown refund and befor game falls from the cliff on consoles. Only PC is holding but this is both not the place where the most money are plus most sells were probably already done.

Disliking the endings has nothing to do with the completion rate or the fact that you keep calling it grimdark while also disregarding the fact that grimdark is a genre of fiction created purely to contradict idealized fantasy tropes in literature, it's usually hopeless, morally gray, manipulative, deceptive etc.

Cybeprunk in general is not grimdark, and this game is not an exception.

Ok, but this game tires to be foremost a grimdark story, with little reasons classic cyberpunk tropes. There is barely any conspiracies in the MQ (some almost dead end with VDB and Arasaka ending which is considered a bad one), little about transhumanizm (game just rolls over the fact that V is an engram by the end of the game), cyberwere and what makes you to be human is not present in this game (can't go even cyberpsycho).
OTOH there is a lot of Tarot Cards, Egyptian's cats, more esoterics even in characters naming like Misty or Hellman.

But sure we know each other's arguments.

I just wanted to tell that this is not some deep story by design.
Mostly it was watered down with things like 6mo to live, MBE and Biotechnica. So there is little tragedy to be found in this story, besides maybe Evelyn story arc and to some extant Judy.

 

[exxxed]

In 2017, the writer Alexandra Rowland proposed that the "opposite of grimdark" is "hopepunk", a literary trend that emphasizes what grimdark rejects: the importance of hope and the sense that ideals are worth fighting for despite adversity.[11][10] The novelist Derek B. Miller defined hopepunk as "stories that free the soul from darkness. That necessitates situating the characters and action in a dark world and then directing the drama and activity towards the light. Whether they reach it or not is part of the story

That is how'd I'd describe 2077 and any good cyberpunk story. It also fits in with Pondsmiths philosophy.

Hopepunk, how was I not aware of this lal.

Thanks for this I'm going to keep it .

 

[Naglafar2183]

After reading about it, I agree. That makes a lot of sense. That's like a blinking neon sign of a viable possibility.

Yep, I think(hope) the Devil Sun and Star will converge on the crystal palace. Temperance and suicide I don't think will be considered 'canon' in any expansion we get.

That would be crazy though if they brought back temperance and you made a new character and they put your engram in it from beyond the blackwall.

 

[GVArcian]

As much as I dislike that whole "DNA" thing, it might be there just for the sake of paving the way for a continuation. Because why else would they invent such a thing just in the endings, you know?

They invented it for the ending in order to justify the choice of giving V's body to Johnny... because if there isn't a drawback to the player taking back their own body, why would they ever give it to Johnny?

 

[MandyZGaming]

While her tech skills are most impressive, isn't V's post-ending problem more of a medical issue? The biochip isn't killing V anymore, it's the damage it caused to V's body that's doing it. How is she suppose to help with that?

No it´s the chip. Only in Devil the chip is removed. In star and sun it´s just Johnny removed from the chip. But it´s kinda both since the chip causes medical issues.

 

[OG_VELI]

They invented it for the ending in order to justify the choice of giving V's body to Johnny... because if there isn't a drawback to the player taking back their own body, why would they ever give it to Johnny?

Yes, I know, I forgot to mention that, but still, the only other reason is to continue V's journey in the future. Well, at least in my eyes, because apart from Johnny and a continuation, there's nothing else.

 

[exxxed]

Reasons why MQ of CP77 was "shortened" was because only 26% of players finished MQ of TW3, and this is ratio. Numbers are almost the same despite that story last only for 13h.
Plus last mission is only 1-2h long, and still 10% of players didn't want to finish it.

Yes but regardless of the length of the game the industry standard of completion of the main narrative of an open world title is around 30 percent, it doesn't mean anything more than the majority of people don't like playing the main campaign in an open world game.

Nothing to do with liking cyberpunk theme or not, I mean why would you bother buying the game if you don't like cyberpunk.

Ok, but the reason why CP77 sold well was due to TW3, you can't say that this is a success of CP77 of it's own.
Not to say that TW3 sold 26 milion copies, CP77 13 and this was both before full blown refund and befor game falls from the cliff on consoles. Only PC is holding but this is both not the place where the most money are plus most sells were probably already done.

It's irrelevant, we have the numbers that we have (it doesn't matter where they came from because we're not talking about money but about player base), The Witcher 3 was available for 5 years and it's at 26 percent while Cyberpunk was available for 2 months and it sits at 30 percent, they wanted a shorter narrative because people were not finishing their game so it seems to have statistically paid off.

Ok, but this game tires to be foremost a grimdark story, with little reasons classic cyberpunk tropes. There is barely any conspiracies in the MQ (some almost dead end with VDB and Arasaka ending which is considered a bad one), little about transhumanizm (game just rolls over the fact that V is an engram by the end of the game), cyberwere and what makes you to be human is not present in this game (can't go even cyberpsycho).
OTOH there is a lot of Tarot Cards, Egyptian's cats, more esoterics even in characters naming like Misty or Hellman.

But sure we know each other's arguments.

I just wanted to tell that this is not some deep story by design.
Mostly it was watered down with things like 6mo to live, MBE and Biotechnica. So there is little tragedy to be found in this story, besides maybe Evelyn story arc and to some extant Judy.

Cyberpunk is not grimdark, based on any definition, the diagnosis at the end doesn't change a thing when the characters involved are hopeful, opposite of grim.

I personally think it's an intricate story about the human condition explored through the main narrative and side quests, they're all a part of a large whole which is in general about second chances.

I'm sorry you didn't like it.

 

[Guest 4412420]

No it´s the chip. Only in Devil the chip is removed. In star and sun it´s just Johnny removed from the chip. But it´s kinda both since the chip causes medical issues.

If the biochip was still an issue, V wouldn't be dying in The Devil ending. That's just my opinion, but I believe that the problem is now the damage it caused not that it continues to hurt V because as you said it's gone in The Devil ending but V's chances weren't improved by its removal at all.

 

[Barsenthor]

Cyberpunk is not grimdark, based on any definition, the diagnosis at the end doesn't change a thing when the characters involved are hopeful, opposite of grim.

I personally think it's an intricate story about the human condition explored through the main narrative and side quests, they're all a part of a large whole which is in general about second chances.

I'm sorry you didn't like it.

For me game tried to go full grimdark - NC is a bad and nasty place, almost like some sort of sinister entity, MC is doomed from the beginning and resistance is futile.
And then in the end most of this is undone with 6mo, MBE and Biotechnica. Will this "cliffhanger/soft retcon" make a sense or not is irrelevant, since plot doesn't need to be that logical.

This is why I think game is rather self aware of the limitation of the genre.

Even more I think that best parts of this game and lore are yet to come with NighCorp, Blue Eye People and AIs behind the Blackwall. This will be more inline with classic cyberpunk (from Sprawl Trilogy do Deus Ex games).

 

[exxxed]

For me game tried to go full grimdark - NC is a bad and nasty place, almost like some sort of sinister entity, MC is doomed from the beginning and resistance is futile.

Night City and the world of Cyberpunk is no different than any other cyberpunk media, Blade Runner, Neuromancer, Ghost in The Shell etc., it has dark undertones but the main theme is hopeful even if it's based around death, unavoidable death is not the final outcome in a lot of cases.

A lot of the side stories are based on redemption and second chances that's why I don't see the ''grim'' part in it, yeah corps have the ultimate power and all that but even so they're not able to completely erase the humanity in the individuals and the society at large.

There's always hope and people keep improving their lives even if just a little, it's all contrasted with the dark undertones of sensitive subjects like suicide, death row, loss of identity and friends, grey morality to emphasize how important a positive change is in this bleak setting.

There's no good without evil basically, but evil is not all encompassing.

And then in the end most of this is undone with 6mo, MBE and Biotechnica. Will this "cliffhanger/soft retcon" make a sense or not is irrelevant, since plot doesn't need to be that logical.

This is why I think game is rather self aware of the limitation of the genre.

Perhaps, we'll see.

Even more I think that best parts of this game and lore are yet to come with NighCorp, Blue Eye People and AIs behind the Blackwall. This will be more inline with classic cyberpunk (from Sprawl Trilogy do Deus Ex games).

Now I hope this is the case as well, I want to see more from this setting too, but Arasaka and Johnny Silverhand are major parts of it as well.

 

[Naglafar2183]

If the biochip was still an issue, V wouldn't be dying in The Devil ending. That's just my opinion, but I believe that the problem is now the damage it caused not that it continues to hurt V because as you said it's gone in The Devil ending but V's chances weren't improved by its removal at all.

They specifically mention tumors/physical brain damage in the Devil ending, the chip definately did some damage. The reason is different in the Sun and Star, they say the body adapted to Johnny. So one problem is an immune system problem, the other is a physical brain issue.