[Spoiler Alert] About the endings

[Buckadoz]

Alright, can we be clear on one thing? You may not like the fact the endings are less happy than you wanted. You may not like the fact that not everything goes your way. Your preference in media I suppose, and that's where the poll started: do you want happy or no.

That doesn't make the rest of the writing atrocious swiss cheese because you like happy. Plot Cancer, Cancer ex Machina, "Artificial Asspull", and on and on. V dying of a virtually incurable effect while having her personality/soul/consciousness overwritten and chasing slim leads to stop that is, in fact, the plot. Screaming about that being Artificial is accurate only in the sense that the entire thing is at the end of the day a piece of narrative fiction.

They didn't suddenly make up a new plot in the last few seconds, they didn't suddenly introduce a brand new player, they didn't have V living a perfectly healthy merc life and then suddenly decide V has six months to live. V was dying and being overwritten, rapidly, and was told by a lot of people who have pretty grounded opinions - like doctors and the guy who designed the thing - that there is no real cure. Two less than reliable actors offer vague solutions that V doesn't entirely understand in return for favors. V makes a deal and it turns outside the other side can only partially pay, what with this being an entirely new and unexplored area of medicine and handling the soul/consciousness working under extreme conditions. As opposed to dying at the next attack where the Relic malfunctions, she gets six more months.

Nothing in that fails to track, represents a vast and sudden change in theme, plot, or characters. It just doesn't make you happy. There is a world of difference between the two.

Both the Arasaka and Alt endings are just ass-pulls, though. You're no longer being overwritten; just dying from some bullshit they made up in the last minute so that the game can still kill you. And when the entire plot of the game is about saving yourself, only to be told by every ending that you've still got something that's going to kill you quickly, isn't actually an ending, it's just stopping the story.

 

[Barsenthor]

1) The forum can't agree on the pseudoscience, which is a bit like having an argument about the how the flux capacitor makes a delorean travel through time. What we do know, as stated in game is that:

Relic 1.0 allowed you to create a digital construct of a person and talk to it. it does.

Relic 2.0 was supposed to allow to transfer a digital construct off the chip into a new body. Said body was supposed to be carefully chosen, and at least in initial concept, a "blank" which we're given to mean already brain-dead and specially prepared. That is all stated. How it IS working is that it is having Johnny overwrite V, who is not a blank, and in the process is causing physical and mental trauma. The body has been trashed in the process. This is the point where someone screams BUT NANNITES! BUT DNA! BUT PSEUDOSCIENCE! which is all rather irrelevant since from a plot perspective this is exactly how it's been working from the beginning.

2) It kills you and creates an engram copy of your soul/consciousness which then gets stored as a program/data. That is demonstrated and described. After that tit's all philosophy class, which some people are confusing for the narrative mechanics. I would be extremely surprised if one of the central question sets of the game "what makes you you? what makes up a soul or a consciousness? What measure a human?" had agreement on it. The narrative mechanics by which this digital copy are created - it's copied out of your mind by Sufficiently Advanced Science- are clearly stated.

3) JS is a digital construct, created by Soulkilling the original JS, on the Relic in V's head. He will, if not stopped, overwrite V's mind by Sufficiently Advanced Science and his consciousness will be housed in the V body. After that, philosophy class and big moral cyberpunk questions which cause disagreement, but for the right reasons, not because we don't know how he works plot wise.

4) We are given glimpses of his plans, but they are left deliberately not understood - V and friends don't have that much information. Based on his messages in Konpeki, he was planning on deliberately providing the chip to Netwatch, who had questions as to why it had to be JS on the chip. What exactly he wanted we may never know, but a stake in the blackwall war subplot seems most likely. Either way, it isn't that relevant to understanding V's plot.

The plot answer to searching is that 'saka DID send "all their tin soldiers" looking. Wakkao says as much. Exactly why they fail or stop is left unclear - but V would hardly know. Maybe Hannako-Oda-Takemura are running top cover. Maybe they're too busy with the internecine re-org between the three main factions of the board that Take talk's about. Maybe night city is just really big and chaotic with plenty of data and jurisdictional balkanization, and full of people who don't particularly want to help 'saka out and they just don't put the bits together in time. RPG heroes (really, all fictional protagonists) are always seemingly running in to precisely the right person/puzzle/timing/prophecy to solve things that other supposedly highly competent folks haven't, and the bad guys are always a step or two behind until the narrative requires otherwise.

In our case because we'd like to have a game that goes beyond "and after the Heist, 'saka hit the Delamain cab with a drone launched missile from 30k feet."

It's not wildly Realistic, but to say "swiss cheese" for following a convention pretty standard to multiple forms of media as a pre-req for protagonists not being smeared seems a stretch.

---------

In short, the arguments about philosophy or trying to make cases out of fictional science do not equal plot holes.

Well I didn’t know that mechanism of action of the relic or Yorinobu’s plans were the question about philosophy or that, well science in science fiction should have any proper, even basic explanations, besides “its magic just deal with it”.

well just three basic examples how you can explain science

Warp drive

That machine was designed to manipulate space, to violate the laws of motion. You make the tiniest mistake, you'll collapse the warp field, you'll crush this ship.Phlox's hallucination of Trip Tucker Warp drive has been around for three centuries. It's a proven technology.Geordi La Forge Warp...

memory-alpha.fandom.com

Mass Relay

Mass Relays are mass transit devices scattered across the Milky Way, usually located within certain star systems. They form an enormous galaxy-wide network enabling rapid interstellar travel. Hailed as one of the greatest achievements of the now extinct Protheans, a mass relay can transport...

masseffect.fandom.com

Mechanical augmentation

This article is about the overview of mechanical augmentations in the Deus Ex universe. For a list of augmentations, see #List of Mechanical Augmentations. Mechanical augmentation involves the use of cybernetics in order to improve or replace human body parts. It is distinguished from basic limb...

deusex.fandom.com

And bonus one

CHOOH2

CHOOH2 (pronounced "chew two") is a chemical fuel product, used to power vehicles. By the year 2020, CHOOH2 is ubiquitous; it has essentially replaced gasoline and diesel fuels as the leading combustible fuel. The essential ingredient in CHOOH2 is a patented high-sugar wheat, Triticum vulgaris...

cyberpunk.fandom.com

 

[OG_VELI]

And when the entire plot of the game is about saving yourself, only to be told by every ending that you've still got something that's going to kill you quickly, isn't actually an ending, it's just stopping the story.

Well fucking good, I'm glad. At least now there is a reason to continue V's story.

 

[theBlackDragon]

In short, the arguments about philosophy or trying to make cases out of fictional science do not equal plot holes.

I'd agree they don't necessarily equal plot holes, as long as they are internally consistent. I'm willing to accept anything in a fictional world, except for internal inconsistency. A world that breaks its own rules "because plot" is the one thing I can't get over once I notice it.

That said, I don't see any issues with anything you bring up in your post.

As for why we aren't found by Arasaka, well, there's many ways to explain it, but we'll likely never really know, so speculation is all we have.

One explanation could be that Yorinobu didn't care about V at all, he just wanted Takemura out of the picture and chasing down V ("Saburo's killer") gets him that. Despite then being unable to kill Takemura he still partially succeeds since we end up having to jump through hoops to reach Hanako.

It should also be noted that Takemura is considered a wanted man, while V is not, since Wakako immediately remarks on it upon meeting Takemura, while never mentioning anything about V.
This implies Yorinobu/Arasaka don't know about V's involvement, assume Goro killed us when he found us (possibly without knowing our identity), or simply don't consider us a threat since Yorinobu knows we didn't kill Saburo, so we're just thieves in his mind. Moreover Yorinobu doesn't have any reason to suspect V has anything at all to gain from helping Takemura as he's rather unlikely to know we slotted the relic and then died...

On top of that he might not care much for the Relic either, only using it as a means to incite Saburo. Trying to poach it to Netwach could have just been a ploy for him to get Saburo to act as he's liable to find out about his overtures towards Netwatch (given "Arasaka sees all"). Once he gets rid of Saburo his interest in the chip might have simply died (Or he assumes Goro has it, after offing V. Or he simply assumes it destroyed).

But this is, of course, pure speculation, which, while fun in itself, doesn't really lead anywhere other than that there are reasonable explanations possible for the situation we end up in.

 

[Ayinde_Palmer]

Interesting, so if those things are not crucial to the plot - so what is crucial to the main quest?

What do you need to know about soul killer to know about the main plot, that you don't know?
What do you need to know about the Johnny engram to know about the main plot, that you don't know?
What does yorinobu intentions have to do with the main plot? They actually tell you his motivation, but it wouldn't matter at all what his motivation was.

No one in Arasaka cared about V. There was no reason to care.

 

[Naglafar2183]

I have a question: What happens to Saul if you reject Panam's Riders on the Storm or don't show up at the Wraith's stronghold? Anyone walked that way? I just read that you would get a final message from Panam, what would she write?

Edit: Solved. Saul dies. So V is the only reason Saul even lives later on.

V basically saves the Aldecaldos, between getting Panam back and saving Saul. It's why they are ok risking their lives for you, along with what they stand to gain from the raid. It also why Panam falls for Male V so quick, you help her and the clan at one of their darkest times. It's one of the most well thought out plot lines in the game imo.

If you do let Saul die the last message is that Panam hopes wraiths rape your corpse, it's pretty brutal. Panam leaves the game after this and the Aldecaldos basically dissolve, their camp is mostly empty.

Mitch still texts and asks how you are doing though. What a bro

 

[sacred_darling]

Well I didn’t know that mechanism of action of the relic or Yorinobu’s plans were the question about philosophy or that, well science in science fiction should have any proper, even basic explanations, besides “its magic just deal with it”.

Sometimes I think that if there was no explanation at all of how those things work, it would cause less controversy But this is sci-fi. And in this one, there will be a dialogue line, then another contradicting dialogue line from later in the game (like J saying that they both die if they don't get to Mikoshi, for instance), then 2-3 shards, and then the Cyberpunk tabletop lore on top of that (which you aren't even supposed to know about cause these are separate products, not series or smth). It's when all these things don't match, it starts to get annoying.

Also, the more videos I watch, the more I get the impression that the game is struggling with "set protagonist" vs "you in NC in 2077". Customizing the main character from scratch, choosing backstory, first person perspective and making choices seems to make the game about you (your name is V), but for a personalized story there isn't that much variety, especially in the endings, to cater to whatever might come to different minds. OK, they can't have 100 options, but at least make the endings a bit more varied in how doomed V is (dying in one, losing a LI in another, betraying someone and feeling guilty, bound to coexist with Johnny forever etc)? At least then the player can think about V's priorities and use the real game mechanics to show them.

(The only reason to keep all the endings nearly the same could be DLC - if it's even gonna be about what happens next and not just a bunch of side quests).

Without more variety and branching, it's just a pre-determined linear story about someone named V which becomes different 1 hour before the game finishes: V gets to become a nomad, V gets to become a "street kid" boss, V gets to work for Arasaka (at least Hanako suggests that). And that is decided not by choosing "I want to become an Afterlife boss" explicitly, but by choosing between "1) I like Panam; 2) I like Johnny; 3) I like neither of them".

And then the second issue: an open world built for completionist playthrough in one save. If the game could actually block you from completing one questline if you invest too much time in the other, it would seem more different. But it doesn't block anything. Cause if it did, there would be no sense in grinding and saving money.

As for dropping content and not doing questlines on purpose, that doesn't make the game better built. Same stuff as "knife only" or "walk only" challenges. It should allow for variety from the beginning, not make the player think how they could make it more varied. Doesn't suit my idea of "roleplaying" either (how about a V who wants to know literally everything about how their life can be saved?).

Post automatically merged: Feb 21, 2021

What do you need to know about soul killer to know about the main plot, that you don't know?
What do you need to know about the Johnny engram to know about the main plot, that you don't know?
What does yorinobu intentions have to do with the main plot? They actually tell you his motivation, but it wouldn't matter at all what his motivation was.

No one in Arasaka cared about V. There was no reason to care.

Really? Isn't Hanako literally planning a coup d'etat that depends entirely on V? So much, in fact, that it is the main quest of the game?

It seems that probably they didn't care about Saburo or whatever happened to him, as long as it's OK in a totalitarian corp not to care about what happened to the main tyrant.

 

[Tofujunky]

Sometimes I think that if there was no explanation at all of how those things work, it would cause less controversy But this is sci-fi. And in this one, there will be a dialogue line, then another contradicting dialogue line from later in the game (like J saying that they both die if they don't get to Mikoshi, for instance), then 2-3 shards, and then the Cyberpunk tabletop lore on top of that (which you aren't even supposed to know about cause these are separate products, not series or smth). It's when all these things don't match, it starts to get annoying.

Also, the more videos I watch, the more I get the impression that the game is struggling with "set protagonist" vs "you in NC in 2077". Customizing the main character from scratch, choosing backstory, first person perspective and making choices seems to make the game about you (your name is V), but for a personalized story there isn't that much variety, especially in the endings, to cater to whatever might come to different minds. OK, they can't have 100 options, but at least make the endings a bit more varied in how doomed V is (dying in one, losing a LI in another, betraying someone and feeling guilty, bound to coexist with Johnny forever etc)? At least then the player can think about V's priorities and use the real game mechanics to show them.

(The only reason to keep all the endings nearly the same could be DLC - if it's even gonna be about what happens next and not just a bunch of side quests).

Without more variety and branching, it's just a pre-determined linear story about someone named V which becomes different 1 hour before the game finishes: V gets to become a nomad, V gets to become a "street kid" boss, V gets to work for Arasaka (at least Hanako suggests that). And that is decided not by choosing "I want to become an Afterlife boss" explicitly, but by choosing between "1) I like Panam; 2) I like Johnny; 3) I like neither of them".

And then the second issue: an open world built for completionist playthrough in one save. If the game could actually block you from completing one questline if you invest too much time in the other, it would seem more different. But it doesn't block anything. Cause if it did, there would be no sense in grinding and saving money.

As for dropping content and not doing questlines on purpose, that doesn't make the game better built. Same stuff as "knife only" or "walk only" challenges. It should allow for variety from the beginning, not make the player think how they could make it more varied. Doesn't suit my idea of "roleplaying" either (how about a V who wants to know literally everything about how their life can be saved?).

Post automatically merged: Feb 21, 2021

Really? Isn't Hanako literally planning a coup d'etat that depends entirely on V? So much, in fact, that it is the main quest of the game?

It seems that probably they didn't care about Saburo or whatever happened to him, as long as it's OK in a totalitarian corp not to care about what happened to the main tyrant.

Uh no, Yorinobu planned the coup... There's no evidence for Hanako being a coup plotter... Where do people get this idea..

 

[sacred_darling]

Uh no, Yorinobu planned the coup... There's no evidence for any of what you just said...

Yorinobu is Arasaka's leader. Hanako is planning to neutralize him and bring Saburo back. Don't see a problem here.

 

[larrackell]

There's no evidence for Hanako being a coup plotter... Where do people get this idea..

From the conversations you have with her. That's literally what her plan discussed in Nocturne Op55N1 is about. Getting rid of Yorinobu.

 

[Ayinde_Palmer]

Sometimes I think that if there was no explanation at all of how those things work, it would cause less controversy But this is sci-fi. And in this one, there will be a dialogue line, then another contradicting dialogue line from later in the game (like J saying that they both die if they don't get to Mikoshi, for instance), then 2-3 shards, and then the Cyberpunk tabletop lore on top of that (which you aren't even supposed to know about cause these are separate products, not series or smth). It's when all these things don't match, it starts to get annoying.

Also, the more videos I watch, the more I get the impression that the game is struggling with "set protagonist" vs "you in NC in 2077". Customizing the main character from scratch, choosing backstory, first person perspective and making choices seems to make the game about you (your name is V), but for a personalized story there isn't that much variety, especially in the endings, to cater to whatever might come to different minds. OK, they can't have 100 options, but at least make the endings a bit more varied in how doomed V is (dying in one, losing a LI in another, betraying someone and feeling guilty, bound to coexist with Johnny forever etc)? At least then the player can think about V's priorities and use the real game mechanics to show them.

(The only reason to keep all the endings nearly the same could be DLC - if it's even gonna be about what happens next and not just a bunch of side quests).

Without more variety and branching, it's just a pre-determined linear story about someone named V which becomes different 1 hour before the game finishes: V gets to become a nomad, V gets to become a "street kid" boss, V gets to work for Arasaka (at least Hanako suggests that). And that is decided not by choosing "I want to become an Afterlife boss" explicitly, but by choosing between "1) I like Panam; 2) I like Johnny; 3) I like neither of them".

And then the second issue: an open world built for completionist playthrough in one save. If the game could actually block you from completing one questline if you invest too much time in the other, it would seem more different. But it doesn't block anything. Cause if it did, there would be no sense in grinding and saving money.

As for dropping content and not doing questlines on purpose, that doesn't make the game better built. Same stuff as "knife only" or "walk only" challenges. It should allow for variety from the beginning, not make the player think how they could make it more varied. Doesn't suit my idea of "roleplaying" either (how about a V who wants to know literally everything about how their life can be saved?).

Post automatically merged: Feb 21, 2021

Really? Isn't Hanako literally planning a coup d'etat that depends entirely on V? So much, in fact, that it is the main quest of the game?

Yorinobu's reasons are irrelevant to your reason for being involved. In fact V knowing the reason earlier would likely sidetrack the story. Neither hanako, or Takemura need you to understand Yorinobu.

You could change yorinobu's motivation and it would change little about the plot;
yorinobu is going cyber psycho
saburo stole his girlfriend
yorinobu wants to rule
yorinobu was brainwashed

you'd still need to get to hanako, get her on your side, and help her achieve her goals so you could achieve yours.


anyhow, Yorinobu tells you anyway at the end in his monologue. Saburo wants to rule with fear, I wanted to free people from him, I rejoined to destroy his empire from the inside.

Post automatically merged: Feb 21, 2021

Yorinobu is Arasaka's leader. Hanako is planning to neutralize him and bring Saburo back. Don't see a problem here.

well its slightly murky, yes hanako was planning a coup, but yorinobu was planning to kill the board of directors, which is could also be seen as a coup from certain perspectives

 

[sacred_darling]

Yorinobu's reasons are irrelevant to your reason for being involved. In fact V knowing the reason earlier would likely sidetrack the story. Neither hanako, or Takemura need you to understand Yorinobu.

You could change yorinobu's motivation and it would change little about the plot;
yorinobu is going cyber psycho
saburo stole his girlfriend
yorinobu wants to rule
yorinobu was brainwashed

you'd still need to get to hanako, get her on your side, and help her achieve her goals so you could achieve yours.


anyhow, Yorinobu tells you anyway at the end in his monologue. Saburo wants to rule with fear, I wanted to free people from him, I rejoined to destroy his empire from the inside.

To me it would matter though. If Yorinobu's ideas make sense, maybe we should even side with him?
But the original post was not about why Yorinobu killed Saburo, but about why the corp isn't looking for Saburo's killer or their super-advanced piece of technology. Even NetWatch and VBs don't seem to care about it anymore -- Alt and the Blackwall suddenly became unimportant for them, till it's time for V to find them. Would've made more sense vice versa: everyone else looking for V (let's say that if V wasn't dying, they could just forget about the heist and live happily ever after, unrecognized and not being looked for. That's rubbish!).

Then, re: the previous post:
1) SK is important. You might want to know if V, the protagonist, is an engram in the body or an unaffected being. Likewise, you might want to know if Johnny's engram is the only one of a kind or not cause this can change your attitude to him. He's a coprotagonist, so why not. Also, Arasaka's ending: why can't they use SK on V AND let V go back to Earth if that's a copy? Why is it possible for braindancers and politicians but not V?
2) Knowing if Johnny is an angry bot or an angry human can also determine your attitude to him. Again, he's a coprotagonist - he's worth it.

Also, lots of this thread is about arguing how human Alt is and if she would be prone to lying, so yes, it matters.

 

[Balmung79]

V basically saves the Aldecaldos, between getting Panam back and saving Saul. It's why they are ok risking their lives for you, along with what they stand to gain from from the raid. It also why Panam falls for Male V so quick, you help her and the clan at one of their darkest times. It's one of the most well thought out plot lines in the game imo.

If you do let Saul die the last message is that Panam hopes wraiths rape your corpse, it's pretty brutal. Panam leaves the game after this and the Aldecaldos basically dissolve, their camp is mostly empty.

Mitch still texts and asks how you are doing though. What a bro

Thanks, just wanted to know what V's impact is on Saul/the Aldecaldos outside the Main Quests. Which is: without V doing more than the minimun, Saul'll be dead and basically V at least prolonges his life if not saves it (ending dependant).

 

[Bloodartist]

At least Johnny have a personality, compared to V who is a nobody with no agenda, no motivation, no nothing except ofcourse: "I don't want to die/I want to survive."

Which V fails at. And the game makes it clear at the very beginning and keeps reminding the player at every opportunity.

This game has some last jedi-level failures at basic storytelling. This ultimate downer story (not just ending) is not the kind of story you want for your blockbuster games..

 

[Naglafar2183]

Dang I just watched the Kerry Star ending on youtube. That is pretty sad, but I get it. Kerry says can't handle leaving NC with V and going back alone. Pretty heavy conversation, but ooph that does make the Star ending much more bitter.

 

[Tofujunky]

From the conversations you have with her. That's literally what her plan discussed in Nocturne Op55N1 is about. Getting rid of Yorinobu.

Why are you acting like Yorinobu didn't just kill his father and attempt to kill Hanako? And Hanako is the one plotting the coup? Really? That's some Johnny derangement syndrome. But that's what's interesting about the game, they sell a perspective to you and unless you step back and look you don't realize sometimes how backward it is... That is how V becomes Johnny

Post automatically merged: Feb 21, 2021

Yorinobu's reasons are irrelevant to your reason for being involved. In fact V knowing the reason earlier would likely sidetrack the story. Neither hanako, or Takemura need you to understand Yorinobu.

You could change yorinobu's motivation and it would change little about the plot;
yorinobu is going cyber psycho
saburo stole his girlfriend
yorinobu wants to rule
yorinobu was brainwashed

you'd still need to get to hanako, get her on your side, and help her achieve her goals so you could achieve yours.


anyhow, Yorinobu tells you anyway at the end in his monologue. Saburo wants to rule with fear, I wanted to free people from him, I rejoined to destroy his empire from the inside.

Post automatically merged: Feb 21, 2021

well its slightly murky, yes hanako was planning a coup, but yorinobu was planning to kill the board of directors, which is could also be seen as a coup from certain perspectives

Not "from certain perspectives", it's a coup from all perspectives, not sure that one is up for debate.


Yorinobu also blames you for his sister nearly getting killed... So it's hard to buy his sob story about daddy to justify his global wars in the end imo. He's completely delusional.

 

[sacred_darling]

Why are you acting like Yorinobu didn't just kill his father and attempt to kill Hanako? And Hanako is the one plotting the coup? Really? That's some Johnny derangement syndrome.

Man, it's reading, not a derangement

"A coup d'état is the removal and seizure of a government and its powers." This is what Hanako does, using V, Takemura and Oda if they're alive, loyal Arasaka soldiers and Saburo's engram. And no one's saying if it's justified or not.

 

[larrackell]

Why are you acting like Yorinobu didn't just kill his father and attempt to kill Hanako? And Hanako is the one plotting the coup? Really? That's some Johnny derangement syndrome.

Dude, I'm not. Hanako isn't some useless waif. She's cunning and planning behind the facade. And yes. She is planning - or facilitating or whatever - a coup against Yorinobu at the point of no return. She needs V for it. Without V, she fails.

 

[Tofujunky]

Man, it's reading, not a derangement

"A coup d'état is the removal and seizure of a government and its powers." This is what Hanako does, using V, Takemura and Oda if they're alive, loyal Arasaka soldiers and Saburo's engram. And no one's saying if it's justified or not.

Hmm except Yorinobu killed Saburo and attempted to kill his sister, then assumed control of the board and full power. He was an illegitimate leader, so there is no "coup".


I can't believe these are the conclusions people are drawing from this just to make sure Yorinobu is the victim. Wow.

Post automatically merged: Feb 21, 2021

Dude, I'm not. Hanako isn't some useless waif. She's cunning and planning behind the facade. And yes. She is planning - or facilitating or whatever - a coup against Yorinobu at the point of no return. She needs V for it. Without V, she fails.

That's how you feel about it because the game makes you sympathize with Yorinobu for some reason but the fact is it's not
If she benefits from it too then yeah that's part of her cunning ill-faith nature but Yorinobu killed his dad and attempted to kill her... pretty simple.

 

[sacred_darling]

Hmm except Yorinobu killed Saburo and attempted to kill his sister, then assumed control of the board and full power. He was an illegitimate leader, so there is no "coup".

I can't believe these are the conclusions people are drawing from this just to make sure Yorinobu is the victim. Wow.

Believe it or not, but no matter if Yorinobu is a legitimate or an illegitimate leader, Hanako wants to take his position by force I honestly see no reason to "wow" about it. And I don't think anyone here cares for Yorinobu. That's just plain game plot. Not a conclusion, a fact.