Why do they do it?

[iCake]

Why is Bethesda the new standard? They weren't listed at the stock-market, they had private investors, who pushed the games out and didn't care about customers, just their own pockets. Ok, CDPR got them, too. Holding shares big time. But there are working in the company or are related to them (Brother?)... they made their profit with the release. Maybe they didn't care either.

I don't know if B. can recover. (Btw.: I can't remember that Skyrim was such a bugparty). But this is not the point. Compare yourself to the worse, feeling fine because you didn't messed up that much (not sure about that), and you will never come anywhere.
CDPR themselves wanted to release a game polished as RDR2, not Fallout76. We know how that went.

I wasn't setting any standards, that's just my experience with Bethesda games. Also, I wasn't comparing RDR 2 to Cyberpunk 2077 bugwise, I only mentioned that both have performance issues in city areas, performance issue is not strictly a bug. That said, you could have the entire camp bug out for you in chapter 2 in RDR 2 on release and now that's a major bug I would be pissed about and really was when I got it.

How to Avoid 'Red Dead 2's Camp Glitch

The glitch can erase certain characters from a portion of the game if you're not careful.

www.newsweek.com

Of course, there might be bugs like that in Cyberpunk but I've never run into anything like that in this game.

That said, I agree with the gist of your comment, not completely, but quite close to it, so a red point's coming for you. BTW, RDR 2 is an amazing game and a technical marvel in some regards, that's an opinion I hold and will always hold about it.

You missed my point in that post though. Yeah, they messed up and yeah, people have the right to voice their frustrations with the game. But all the hate, oh my, people got so blinded by it, it is not even funny anymore. Because at the end of the day, there is a good game here, bugs or no bugs.

Post automatically merged: Mar 3, 2021

You are right. Difference is that behind bugs, bethesda released an RPG (a poor one compared to previous fallouts, but an RPG after all), as promised, whereas CDPR released a linear adventure game in a poor open world with retarded AI. I think that comparing CP77 and RDR2 bugwise is frankly insulting.
Red dead redemption 2 (even in ps4 base) is a masterpiece. CP is not and it will never be, unfortunately. And not because bugs or the lack thereof, but because of a bad design, bad mechanics, and bad everything except for the story, the characters and the acting.
So, to respond OP: CP goes nowhere. Its going to be a polished unbuggy version of a mediocre game.
If they released because they thought people would share your (very respectable) opinion, they were wrong, as its now obvious.

Completely disagree. Especially with the bit about mediocrity and that it is not going anywhere. If anything, the game has tons upon tons of potential that can be realized with the upcoming DLCs, better yet small tweaks here and there to the existing systems can go a long way as well. So I am not even worried on this front, the post launch support history for the Witcher 3 pretty much lays all those worries aside. I am worried about balance though, very worried, there's no balance in this game as of now and that's the biggest gripe I have with this game. The thing is, arguably no CDPR games managed to deliver on this front, so there's no reason to believe they would with Cyberpunk, sadly.

That said, perhaps the design decisions are simply not your cup of tea and that's okay.

 

[jjmard321]

That's an exercise in demagoguery if I ever saw one. EA provides product and people who buy it show them their support. Simple as that, if that was not the case, EA would simply change their product somehow, including changing that to game as a service model, or abandon it.

Perhaps true but part of the problem that makes it difficult is that sport games are exclusive. People who really like those games have nowhere to go but to EA, so EA takes advantage of that as much as they can possibly get away with.

 

[Mobster100]

Massive pressure from the shareholders is the main reason. That and the overwhelming desire to recoup development funds and to acquire the most profit possible as early as possible. The opposite is generally in play though as the damage incurred by releasing the game in a state like CP2077 is much greater. Damage to a companies reputation takes a long time to recover, however the norm seems to be AAA game companies to release crap, apologize for doing it, then take forever to attempt to fix the game.

I've said it many times on this and other forums, but the government needs to get involved (like the FCC in the US) to outlaw the practice of "pre-ordering". All it does is give game developers and manufacturers a license to do whatever they want and deliver products like CP2077, Anthem, Fallout 76, etc. This needs to stop. Let the content creators on YT, Twitch, FB, etc., play the games, early editions, and see for ourselves whether they meet standards of what was promised or not. I realize some of the content creators are paid by the games devs, but not all of them are. A little bit of caution and research prior to throwing down our money should take the place of pre-ordering from now on.

I would agree that it some rules could be useful in this industry, for the most part people don't have the ability to refund games following the same laws as with other products. A lot of the problems seems to be that the gaming industry is fairly self regulated, companies can release whatever promotional material that they desire even if it does not reflect the actual quality of the game or even the game itself.

The problem is that content creators can be bought and in fact a lot is, even some of them were praising CP as being the best thing ever, which clearly is not the case. It is also known that certain content creators giving their honest opinion, gets removed from these companies lists to get early editions to avoid them telling the "truth".

Furthermore I don't think content creators ought to be put into such position, rather people should be allowed to judge for themselves, so maybe companies should be forced to release demos of their games before being allowed to release them. Looking at some of the stores selling games, whether that is PS, Xbox or Steam, they ought to raise the bar in regards to quality control. As far as I know, PS were the only one that pulled CP from their store given the poor state it was in.

It's obviously sad that the industry seems to be going this way, where customers can't trust in these companies to deliver the games they promise or hardly deliver functional games at all, and simply expect people to just wait another year for them to fix it, long after the game have lost most interest. Again to me from a company perspective, I find it to be a bad strategy, not only did the poor release of CP hurt the company, but without a doubt it hurt the MP version of CP, it hurt all upcoming releases from CDPR, whether its expansions for CP or TW4. But also when these companies keep releasing these games, screwing people over time after time, they eventually end up with no one wanting to pre-order anything, which hurt the whole industry. Because personally after CP, I won't preorder any game again, I really don't see the point in it anymore, and it's sad for those companies that actually do want to make high quality products, that these AAA companies ruins it for them.

 

[GrimReaper801]

If anything, the game has tons upon tons of potential

I think that is a huge part of the massive disappointment many are experiencing.

I'm sure we can all agree that Night City is beautifully designed. Extremely so. From a purely design point of view it is far ahead of every single game I've seen it compared to. The lore is very detailed and extremely expansive. There is just tons and tons of it and almost anything seems possible in this world.

The raw potential behind the game is staggering. The possibilities feel endless. Whatever crazy thing you might think of, there is a way to implement it that would make sense.

To me, this is CDPR's greatest failing - they created an amazing world with amazing lore and didn't even begin to truly exploit the potential behind it all.

The greatest city in the world certainly looks the part (for a dystopian hellhole) but doesn't walk the walk.

 

[ElsonsoJannus]

To me, this is CDPR's greatest failing - they created an amazing world with amazing lore and didn't even begin to truly exploit the potential behind it all.

The greatest city in the world certainly looks the part (for a dystopian hellhole) but doesn't walk the walk.

It might be a failing, but I question whether they can do anything about it. Part of me thinks that they have invented a game that simply can't exist within the bounds of today's technology and what budgets allow. They have delivered on the parts that can. We are trying to hold them to that game that cannot exist and all we are going to get are bug fixes for the parts that can.

 

[GrimReaper801]

It might be a failing, but I question whether they can do anything about it. Part of me thinks that they have invented a game that simply can't exist within the bounds of today's technology and what budgets allow. They have delivered on the parts that can. We are trying to hold them to that game that cannot exist and all we are going to get are bug fixes for the parts that can.

They haven't pushed the envelope that far.

Furthermore, I'm talking about content to be added within the confines of what is already there. There are a lot of things that people want that are never going to happen because it's unrealistic with today's technology. Were talking about the whole "thousands of NPCs all at once with full AI daily/nightly routine", and it's likes, that even the beefiest of today's computers would struggle with, let alone in 2018 when the infamous video that shall not be named appeared.

What I'm talking about is making use of it's world as it is right now. There is a lot of content in the game as it is but it is mostly "safe" content if you will. Most of it is rather unimaginative and very standard cyberpunk stuff though, CDPR didn't take much risk here. Some of it is way more imaginative and makes use of the incredible world they've built and those are the moments that get celebrated and remembered. Yet, those moment end up shining light on the "duller" moments.

Here they are with a world with almost limitless possibilities and most of what they've done is very basic cyberpunk stuff. I'm not even asking them to think outside the box (although that's always welcome) I'm talking about making full use of said box.

On top of that, there are things that have been part of these types of games for years (thus nothing today's tech can't pull off) and are only logical in the world they've built that aren't even in-game. A city "where looks are everything" but they provided one of the most basic character creator tool we've had in a few years. We've ended up with a basic "option 1-2-3" system with few options compared to what has been done in recent years. Better character creator tools have existed for 5+ years, they played it safe here. Way too safe and not making use of the world they've created.

We ended up with a permanent character look in a world where body modifications are the norm and changing your entire body is only a matter of how much money ya got. Changing looks after character creation has been in games for over a decade. Again, way too safe and not making use of the world they've created.

In a world where gangs are supposed to all have very distinct identities, criminal activities and goals. We ended up with a world where gangs could be named gang #1, gang #2, etc. They all have distinct looks but no distinct personalities and goals. The closest we get is the Flathead quest where we get to see a bit of what Maelstrom is about. Way more in-depth fact/gang systems have been done for over a decade. Here I think they simply ran out of time and couldn't make it for release but it's still highly disappointing.

The list goes on.

The point is that the world and lore they've created is almost limitless, yet, it is barely used. Even systems that have been staples of the genre, and only logical addition to the world they've created, have been left out or implemented in their most basic forms even though the tech allows for far better systems.

 

[iCake]

Perhaps true but part of the problem that makes it difficult is that sport games are exclusive. People who really like those games have nowhere to go but to EA, so EA takes advantage of that as much as they can possibly get away with.

True, very true actually. But they still offer "one of a kind" product for many sports games and if you really want it, you just have to accept it. But it's not like you're truly forced or anything, or like you won't have any fun with their product. It'd be cool to see some MORE competition here though, because EA has actually seen it with 2K's basketball and now abandoned hockey as well as with PES. So, it is not that bad actually. PES really pushed the quality for FIFA, for example, and the basketball, well 2K's version is just your go-to here, as far as I can tell.

 

[Restlessdingo32]

Hindisght will only get you so far...

I'm not judging the morals of it, but sometimes you've to take a bet. Having grown with a father who used to be a manager in a large company, I've heard many "horror stories" of hazardous bets (and complete disregards for clients/consumers) taken to pay the bills at the end of the day.

Fair point.

I'd respond by saying it's difficult to believe it caught them off guard. If it did it says they were willing to release a product before they fully knew it's working state. If it didn't it says they were willing to release a product while being aware it's working state wasn't where it needed to be. This is what throws me for a loop. I think it's the fundamental problem with the video game industry too.

To offer an example. Suppose you're building a new space shuttle for NASA. You're nearing the deadline for completion. You discover a problem at the last minute. You "think" you can fix the problem right before the release window. You build your fix and, as the release window arrives, apply it.

This example raises a question. What kind of moron hands the shuttle over to NASA and says, "Okay, you can send some people up into space now."? This is not what happens. What happens is they apply the "fix" then test to make sure it works. Only after it's been confirmed as working correctly do they hand the shuttle over to NASA.

An example of the second practice would be recognizing the fix didn't work and handing the non-working shuttle over to NASA anyway.

Obviously, it's not a 1:1 analogy. If the game is busted then people have a sub-par entertainment experience. If a shuttle is busted people can die. Regardless, neither approach should be acceptable for entertainment either.

 

[Ayinde_Palmer]

I would agree that it some rules could be useful in this industry, for the most part people don't have the ability to refund games following the same laws as with other products. A lot of the problems seems to be that the gaming industry is fairly self regulated, companies can release whatever promotional material that they desire even if it does not reflect the actual quality of the game or even the game itself.

The problem is that content creators can be bought and in fact a lot is, even some of them were praising CP as being the best thing ever, which clearly is not the case. It is also known that certain content creators giving their honest opinion, gets removed from these companies lists to get early editions to avoid them telling the "truth".

Furthermore I don't think content creators ought to be put into such position, rather people should be allowed to judge for themselves, so maybe companies should be forced to release demos of their games before being allowed to release them. Looking at some of the stores selling games, whether that is PS, Xbox or Steam, they ought to raise the bar in regards to quality control. As far as I know, PS were the only one that pulled CP from their store given the poor state it was in.

It's obviously sad that the industry seems to be going this way, where customers can't trust in these companies to deliver the games they promise or hardly deliver functional games at all, and simply expect people to just wait another year for them to fix it, long after the game have lost most interest. Again to me from a company perspective, I find it to be a bad strategy, not only did the poor release of CP hurt the company, but without a doubt it hurt the MP version of CP, it hurt all upcoming releases from CDPR, whether its expansions for CP or TW4. But also when these companies keep releasing these games, screwing people over time after time, they eventually end up with no one wanting to pre-order anything, which hurt the whole industry. Because personally after CP, I won't preorder any game again, I really don't see the point in it anymore, and it's sad for those companies that actually do want to make high quality products, that these AAA companies ruins it for them.

having to release demos wouldn't help, people would just spend more time on the demo area, like anime openings get more money than other parts. The fixing after the fact is pretty bad, but to be honest before the online world games had bugs that were never fixed. I'd say it was probably less prevalent, but games were also smaller and simpler back then. People were less likely to push system limits.

regardless, the only thing I think that needs to be done, refunds within a few hours of play within a time frame. Though that can slightly be exploited, I think its fair to return in that case for any reason.

the reality is this isnt actually that big a deal, you can get more information on a game than you could get on most products in existence these days. You can literally, easily, watch people playing the game the day it comes out. As much as people complain about tricky marketing, they showed game footage one year ago. and in November 16 hours of playthrough for print journalists. Many of those previews actually mention bugs, story structure, rpg elements. This youtuber actually forms a pretty accurate view of the game, just by reading all of the preview info, a month before the game came out.

So the real truth? no one needs to protect players, players have more control over their purchase than ever. More information than ever. The world can't make people not be impulsive. And personally, I don't think its really anyones responsibility.

 

[ElsonsoJannus]

They haven't pushed the envelope that far.

Furthermore, I'm talking about content to be added within the confines of what is already there. There are a lot of things that people want that are never going to happen because it's unrealistic with today's technology. Were talking about the whole "thousands of NPCs all at once with full AI daily/nightly routine", and it's likes, that even the beefiest of today's computers would struggle with, let alone in 2018 when the infamous video that shall not be named appeared.

What I'm talking about is making use of it's world as it is right now. There is a lot of content in the game as it is but it is mostly "safe" content if you will. Most of it is rather unimaginative and very standard cyberpunk stuff though, CDPR didn't take much risk here. Some of it is way more imaginative and makes use of the incredible world they've built and those are the moments that get celebrated and remembered. Yet, those moment end up shining light on the "duller" moments.

Here they are with a world with almost limitless possibilities and most of what they've done is very basic cyberpunk stuff. I'm not even asking them to think outside the box (although that's always welcome) I'm talking about making full use of said box.

On top of that, there are things that have been part of these types of games for years (thus nothing today's tech can't pull off) and are only logical in the world they've built that aren't even in-game. A city "where looks are everything" but they provided one of the most basic character creator tool we've had in a few years. We've ended up with a basic "option 1-2-3" system with few options compared to what has been done in recent years. Better character creator tools have existed for 5+ years, they played it safe here. Way too safe and not making use of the world they've created.

We ended up with a permanent character look in a world where body modifications are the norm and changing your entire body is only a matter of how much money ya got. Changing looks after character creation has been in games for over a decade. Again, way too safe and not making use of the world they've created.

In a world where gangs are supposed to all have very distinct identities, criminal activities and goals. We ended up with a world where gangs could be named gang #1, gang #2, etc. They all have distinct looks but no distinct personalities and goals. The closest we get is the Flathead quest where we get to see a bit of what Maelstrom is about. Way more in-depth fact/gang systems have been done for over a decade. Here I think they simply ran out of time and couldn't make it for release but it's still highly disappointing.

The list goes on.

The point is that the world and lore they've created is almost limitless, yet, it is barely used. Even systems that have been staples of the genre, and only logical addition to the world they've created, have been left out or implemented in their most basic forms even though the tech allows for far better systems.

Ahhh. I think, in the end, we were talking about two different things.

 

[GrimReaper801]

Ahhh. I think, in the end, we were talking about two different things.

I had a feeling that was the case, hence why I wanted to clarify exactly what I meant.

 

[GethroShepard]

Quality is subjective.

for me
art direction
fun factor
depth
does it reach you (create some feeling)

basically, do I enjoy this game, do I want to keep playing this game, do I feel playing it was worthwhile.

all the other stuff is whatever. Some games story may be so great it eclipses everything else, some games combat carries them

If I want to critique a game, I may point out where I think it can improve, but ultimately a quality game is one that entertains and engages, to me.

Well, this is true if you talk about a piece of art, a movie or something like that.
But, a video game is nothing more than a software. Lines of codes and loads of subroutines.

I work in quality check in my factory. It is pretty simple : if it works and will work again, it is good. If it doesn't work and / or may not work in the futur, it is not good.

I talk about quality. A product finished, polished and working finely. A game is a product after all.

The OP has made his post because of that : the game, as he was released, is not at the level somebody can say "it is a product of quality". And I agree totally. It is far beyond the "released when it is ready".

The AI is broken. The UI is broken. Perks are broken. Several items don't works at all or not as intended. Game blocking bugs happen a lot too much to be rare. As a product and a software, this is not quality.

To be brutally honest, I don't care at all about feelings of other person about this game. As a person that try every single day to deliver good products for my customers, I can't give a label of "quality" to this software as he is now.

 

[Atletikus]

The general answer is the money runs out.

This is a ludicrous and ignorant statement. CDPR has made 100s of millions of dollars on the Witcher-series and was estimated to have grossed $500 million on pre-orders for Cyberpunk alone. They have dethroned Ubisoft as the most valuable publisher in Europe. Clearly, the company is rolling in dough.

The general answer is GREED. Coupled with weak leadership and growing reticence over repeatedly announcing too short delays which caused a growing backlash among fans in the grip of hype and made irate by lockdowns.

 

[msxyz]

Fair point.

I'd respond by saying it's difficult to believe it caught them off guard. If it did it says they were willing to release a product before they fully knew it's working state. If it didn't it says they were willing to release a product while being aware it's working state wasn't where it needed to be. This is what throws me for a loop. I think it's the fundamental problem with the video game industry too.

To offer an example. Suppose you're building a new space shuttle for NASA. You're nearing the deadline for completion. You discover a problem at the last minute. You "think" you can fix the problem right before the release window. You build your fix and, as the release window arrives, apply it.

This example raises a question. What kind of moron hands the shuttle over to NASA and says, "Okay, you can send some people up into space now."? This is not what happens. What happens is they apply the "fix" then test to make sure it works. Only after it's been confirmed as working correctly do they hand the shuttle over to NASA.

An example of the second practice would be recognizing the fix didn't work and handing the non-working shuttle over to NASA anyway.

Obviously, it's not a 1:1 analogy. If the game is busted then people have a sub-par entertainment experience. If a shuttle is busted people can die. Regardless, neither approach should be acceptable for entertainment either.

There is a fundamental difference: videogames and their customers are not treated with the same dignity as others. Also, people playing videogames have demonstrated times and times again they don't mind being treated as sub par customers, even if they're quite vocal. Otherwise shady business practices as DLCs, pay 2 win, microtransactions and so many broken games at release wouldn't be a thing.

Besides, it's not that the industry hasn't already tried to lower the standards also in some markets in which a bad product can cost its customers their life. Read the story of the Ford Pinto, if you want to see how low the industry can go in their chase of profits.

 

[OliYam]

[...]
the game is in really playable state , I've started it after the 1.12 patch playing for few weeks now and really enjoying every moment of it.

cant see those game braking bugs everybody talkin about.
yes it runs not so smooth on my gtx 1060 , im getting 30+ fps on my overclocked system its playable
not on the best of resolutions and graphics but playable non the less.

anyway as like every other game besides very few of them that came out polished and bugless they are all in pretty much same states on lunch ...

give it 2-3 mount's and you'll get really nice experience which is a bonus to the state the game is right now...

Thank you dev's for this fine peace of art , my free time is much more enjoyble now...
please continue to develop best games and get better with time.

 

[Restlessdingo32]

There is a fundamental difference: videogames and their customers are not treated with the same dignity as others. Also, people playing videogames have demonstrated times and times again they don't mind being treated as sub par customers, even if they're quite vocal. Otherwise shady business practices as DLCs, pay 2 win, microtransactions and so many broken games at release wouldn't be a thing.

Besides, it's not that the industry hasn't already tried to lower the standards also in some markets in which a bad product can cost its customers their life. Read the story of the Ford Pinto, if you want to see how low the industry can go in their chase of profits.

I suspect we're seeing eye to eye on all of the above. The question is whether videogames and their customers should be treated differently.

You're absolutely right on customers taking it in stride. That's part of the problem. Game A releases in a sloppy state. Certain customers then proceed to say, "Bugs are hard.", and recite the last six games they bought releasing in a similar state. This leads to labeling it normal, expected and acceptable behavior.

Fast forward a bit and apologies for screwing up are met with high praise. Continued support to fix the screw-ups is met with high praise. It's like breaking something, fixing it and getting a raise for being the hero who fixed it. You broke it in the first place there ace.

I'm reaching the point where every game I buy is on sale by a significant margin. By then it's been out for a while, so it's likely in a better state, and I get to express my deep rooted support for the status quo. It's already the self-imposed rule for development studios content with sloppy releases. It's fast approaching a universally applied rule.

 

[CS554]

In a world where gangs are supposed to all have very distinct identities, criminal activities and goals. We ended up with a world where gangs could be named gang #1, gang #2, etc. They all have distinct looks but no distinct personalities and goals. The closest we get is the Flathead quest where we get to see a bit of what Maelstrom is about. Way more in-depth fact/gang systems have been done for over a decade. Here I think they simply ran out of time and couldn't make it for release but it's still highly disappointing.

Not everyone feels that way and one factor is that not everybody does all missions and read all datashards. In the big picture though, important thing for me example is thought: Could any of these survive without radical change if there weren't society surrounding them?

Question is rhetorical, this isn't a topic to explore that, but I brought that up because not everyone has the same expectations or even think more fluff would automatically results better experience.

 

[Mebrilia]

They game is playable yes.. At least on PC however is not what it was advertised not even by far. Is a game with a stunning beautiful visually open world but with a rushed main quest and meaningless side activities if not for some numbered ones. To do this game justice they had to revamp everything of it and i doubt they will be doing that.

They insisted to make the game first person only and clearly never paid off. "They say for immersion sake. I say first person games with no cutscenes don't require so much effot on animations and also this innovative dialog system again dosn't justify it"

They promised a branching narrative that is not brancing at all.

The gameplay and the world interaction is very very shallow schematic and repetitive.

A.I is even worse than npcs in Skyrim.

Animations outside the cuscenes and fancy gun reloading are pretty mediocre and rushed.

This game have much more problematic than just bugs and glitched and optimization it is flawed on his design.

I was waiting an rpg what i got was a fancy looking looter first person shooter with a short mainstory and a bounch of sidequests.

This is the sad state the game is i hope cd projekt red will manage to reverse the situation but by the video declaration of Marcin i am my doubts on that.

Was promised like a mature game for mature audience what i seen was a watered down pegi16 cyberpunk.

 

[GamerofVizima]

The entire industry is working with the mantra "release now and fix later" so it is to be expected. Cdpr got hit hard cuz gamers saw them as the one company that does not do that( their own fault, "when it's ready" and all that ) so they got all the hate gamers had. Worth it? Depends on how you measure that.

 

[GrimReaper801]

Not everyone feels that way and one factor is that not everybody does all missions and read all datashards. In the big picture though, important thing for me example is thought: Could any of these survive without radical change if there weren't society surrounding them?

Question is rhetorical, this isn't a topic to explore that, but I brought that up because not everyone has the same expectations or even think more fluff would automatically results better experience.

But that's the point.

If it was done right and made use of the world they've built and CDPR's capabilities as writers, it wouldn't be fluff. It would be meaningful content that fits right in and can only improve/refine the RPG experience. On top of that, if you weave it well into the core experience, everyone could experience it without having to go out of their way to experience it and wouldn't feel like forced/unnecessary grind that could put off many.

Anyway, as you've said, this isn't the thread to go into too much details. Though it does beg the question - why did they do it?

Why did they give each gang it's own looks, lore, cars and weapons only to stop there and leave them at a point where they're all essentially interchangeable?

Looking at all of it, my guess is that they just didn't manage to do it in time.