[Spoiler Alert] About the endings

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Do you want more RPGs with happy endings?


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Also weird that Temperance is treated the same as a 20 INT netrunner and a 3 INT dumbass solo. Alt makes it sound like a netrunner would have higher chances of survival as an independent being and it would be neat to see it, yet you always get the "depressed Johnny skipping town" epilogue. Not that it matters in my case, as the 3 INT solo
that's my biggest regret
for me it was only way to save v, really
but johhny and misty tarots's make it very difficult to accept

funny that you can talk to nix in the afterlife and skill check is 3 INT
then v says: "...between us, netrunners..."
WHAAAAT???
 
Perhaps it is your inner self which is the cause you see Alt as much malicious entity
...

You literally say this. I'm not putting words in your mouth.
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Which exactly part of "perhaps" word becomes "the only reason" words?

This does it. Now you'll need to find someone else to communicate with you, 'cause it won't be me.
 
that's my biggest regret
for me it was only way to save v, really
but johhny and misty tarots's make it very difficult to accept

funny that you can talk to nix in the afterlife and skill check is 3 INT
then v says: "...between us, netrunners..."
WHAAAAT???
hey, my V can run Ping. That has to count for something :LOL:
 
Answering couple previous posts, i see you guys seeing things which are not. It is as if you percieve events through some lens of hatred and mistrust and anger. Perhaps it is your inner self which is the cause you see Alt as much malicious entity - not what the game shows? Read further and decide for yourself.

To make things shorter, i will now point to some glaring examples of wrong parts of your opinions on this matter, without quoting the entirety of your big posts in mine.

- "Alt is seeking to merge with all the souls/engrams in Mikoshi", you say. The game says, however, that Alt is highly advanced AI which presumably developed so far ahead in terms of AI functionality that its ways of operating is beyond human comprehension. This is why "merge" is likely to be a term only losely describing Alt's intent; it's likely human language simply lacks any words and ideas to describe what Alt is going to do.

- "The only reason Alt didn't do this earlier and take over another network was that she needed to physically get inside a corps network" - well how do you know? Is there anything in the game anyhow stating or hinting something like "Alt tried to infiltrate Mikoshi for dozens of years"? No?

Well, then, consider this: what sounds more plausible to you: Alt, who was very best Night City netrunner to begin with, who then became an AI - failed to send someone into Mikoshi physically despite 50 years of trying, OR, Alt simply did not care about Mikoshi (and much, about "real" world), instead doing stuff AIs do behind the Black Wall not even paying attention to humans' affairs? I may remind you here, that initially it is not Alt's intention to get into Mikoshi for Alt's own goals / purposes. Instead, it is Johnny who quite rudely demands Alt helps V about the relic, to which Alt explains that this requires getting into Mikoshi. I.e. it all starts, for Alt, as some "oh well for the sake of old times with Johnny" gig, and she gets into it quite reluctantly.

- "Alt is also not nearly as all powerful as you claim, she didnt destroy mikoshi, because she was unable to do so" - see just above. What makes you think Alt was unable, rather than simply not willing, to do it, earlier? And consider this, too: the game clearly states that humans created the Black Wall to prevent AIs taking part in any human affairs. I.e. humans were on defensive - not AIs. Humans were losing "the war", not AIs. And humans thus clearly demonstrated their desire to be "left alone" by AIs beyond the wall. And by 2077, as certain NetWatch agent explains during one of main jobs, the great Black Wall is messy and massively holey and repeateduly failing, NetWatch being busy patching it up all the time. If free AIs wanted, they'd get through, long ago. They don't. They simply largely left humans be. Alt is a part of that AI collective, and likely did the same. Johnny's engram kind of attracted Alt's attention and then Alt got involved in the game's events, but prior to that, Alt was reluctant to make any contact with humans, which is why Vodoo boys seeked Silverhand's engram in the 1st place - to lure Alt out, to make Alt spend any spec of interest for human affairs.

So truth is, to Alt, Mikoshi, corps, Night City, all the human "real life" - was insignificant. Not important. "CBA". ;)

- "She also didn't tell V that there was a chance he'd die in 6 months until Alt was already inside Mikoshi and had gotten what she'd wanted": insinuation. Your attemps to convince about Alt being able to know in advance - are contradicting lots of events and lore of the game. Hellman himself was unable to predict any well V's future, and he created the relic tech - decades after Alt went beyond the Black Wall. Alt itself mentions how Soulkiller tech has little in common left to Soulkiller program Alt developed back when she was a human, too (much changed by Arasaka). Then we know significant alterations to Relic tech were made even after Hellman. And then there is always large uncertainty about biological systems: even very 1st time we play V meeting Viktor, he himself explains it after V asks why Viktor checks V's perceptions every time, even when it's routine operation. Free AIs can be immensely powerful, but not "all powerful". Some things, they can't and won't ever be able to do, and many such things are biological in nature.

- "Why hide it": pure insinuation, if not slander. You have no proof whatsoever Alt knew but did not tell V, i bet. What about presumption of innocence, at least? You spit on that? Figures...

- "Someone in the game says soulkiller is worse than death, I can't remember who. I think its when Johnny is getting hit with it". And how that proves anything about Alt, given the fact that Soulkiller used on Johnny - was not Soulkiller Alt designed for altruistic purposes, but much changed (by Arasaka) version of Soulkiller, intentionally designed to capture, imprison, modify, copy, distribute and dissect engrams of significant dying people in purely commercial interests? It doesn't. This is what Mikoshi is about, if you did not know yet. It's all in game, you just need to find / read corresponding terminals and shards.

- "Alt also kills a bunch of non-combatants if you storm arakasa with the Aldecaldos, at best I think she considers humans basically insects or a means to an end". Well, there is a proverb: "each judges others based on himself". Insects? You twist and corrupt in-game events here.

Truth is, Alt kills some - not all - humans in Mikoshi; notably, a guard is still there, alive and well, in very same small lab complex, among the corpses of "non-combatants", and it's V's choice if to kill, disable, or just avoid that guard. Alt could easily kill that guy too, but did not. Some "researchers", yes, Alt kills there. But those are very corrupt individuals who practically torture and dissect and manipulate engrams in Mikoshi for monetary gain - just read terminals in there, it's rotten to core what they were doing. Simply speaking - they were very, very evil people right there. And like Johnny himself says at some point, there are times one should not hesitate to kill.

Alt also kills Vodoo netrunners when V first meets Alt. And those guys were after using Alt, a powerful AI, to enslave plenty other humans (in practice) - you think it'd be good idea to let those vodoo netrunners live, too? Hardly. Those facts, all together, prove that Alt both values human life in general, but also is not blindly follows the principle. Much as it should be in real life: even strongest pacifists should take arms and fight when, for example, some foreign force attempts to genocide their entire people, etc.

- "If she remotely cared about V, she would have asked." The two made a deal, where both V and Alt were knowing in advance that the only way to separate V and Johnny and keep each surviving - is by using Soulkiller and Mikoshi hardware. Whole game's about it. And when V arrived there and plugged in, V was clearly close to dying. You think in such circumstances Alt had to stop, wait until V regains consiouness (_if_ V would regain it, which we don't know), and ask V "OK are you sure we're going with Soulkiller now?"? Seriously? Even seeing how shitty V gets during Mikoshi gig? And even knowing there was, indeed, no other way to separate V and Johnny, as well as knowing that without separating the two, V would simply perish?

Wow. Just wow. That's... very low of you.

- "I think she wanted to absorb V, since V is legend and powerful, even as an engram". This seriously gets hillarious by this point. I mean, what exactly prevented Alt from simply "merging" with V's engram after soulkilling V, much like you state Alt is about to "merge" all the engrams from Mikoshi into itself? Why even _ask_ V's digital self anything? Why we even see that whole conversation? If you'd be correct with this one, it'd simply not exist. Simple as that.

- "her true motivations and how she perceives things are impossible to understand": impossible for you - maybe. But not for me. I can help with this one - if it's genuine inability to understand. Here goes.

Alt, the AI from beyond the black wall, was doing her daily chores and chatting happily with other AIs there, when a message from the past reached the periphery of her consiousness: Johnny, a lover long gone, was somehow around again. Alt then spared a fraction of its computational power to go and check what's cooking there. Discovered some very bad vodoo netrunners trying to trap Alt, fried their brains. Discovered Johnny's digital now, but not much changed as one of Mikoshi's prison features is to preserve digital consiousness very close to a human state (which is obviously required for commercialising whole project well). Alt also discovered Johnny's now part of V, rather common merc who's not particularly evil nor particularly good-natured - "just usual person". And Alt also discovered Mikoshi's grew to a Frankenstein of a soul-manipulating torture chamber.

Johnny's request was trivial for Alt, and she provided most simple means and instructions for V to allow Alt access to Mikoshi in order to use unique hardware there to help V. And since "i'm doing things there anyway", Alt also decided to free all the engrams imprisoned in Mikoshi. There is actually not much sense for Alt to do it otherwise: Alt clearly understands that abuse of known technology similar to what Arasaka was doing in Mikoshi - will keep happening, as human greed is one big force driving such things to happen. So it's impossible to prevent nor remove permanently, such evil things. But "while at it" - why not, poor souls from Mikoshi would feel better literally anywhere else.

And that's the extent of Alt's participation in the game's events. Alt does a favor to Johnny, old lover, but otherwise Alt is interested quite little in any "human affairs". Whatever knowledge, technology, art, spirituality and/or emotional constructs AIs beyond the Black Wall may desire - they can massively faster create themselves, in compare to lurking human networks and/or assimilating human engrams, and thus have little point in anyhow interact with humans, unless disturbed.

P.S. Even the latter thing has its confirmation in the game's lore. Couple lines from a wiki:

"It's believed that NetWatch was only able to construct the Blackwall because the Free A.I.'s wanted to be left alone and in control of vast abandoned sections of the old net",

"Transcendental Sentience AIs (TS AIs)
... TS AIs are an emergent property of the various regions of the Net. Meaning the structure of the Net itself (the IG Transformation Algorithms) provides a network that allows these AIs to come into being. They were not programmed or created by anyone...in the same way that flocks of birds and schools of fish do not deliberately form the ordered patterns they create. But by their nature, TS AIs are so large that most people cannot interact with them. Even when they can, conventional communication is not really possible, because the AIs are incapable of understanding any existence outside of themselves. They have a synclastic consciousness. Which is to say, their awareness is turned inward, instead of outward like ours. If you were to talk to them it would be to them like talking to yourself is to us. The shape their consciousness takes depends on the nature of the region they occupy. The Sovspace AI is far more chaotic and fragmented than the Pacifica AI, because it is using much more outdated and unreliable infrastructure. TS AIs have no code...the physical structure of the communications lines in realspace, and the IG Transformation algorithms that go along with them, are like the neurons in our brains. They are an emergent property of the Net...a natural consequence of how the Net functions."

And personally, from what i can fathom, Alt is one AI which is significantly much further advanced than usual symbolic analysis / ex-human AI, but not yet entirely TS AI. Alt is somewhere between those two states, perhaps nearly half-way to TS state. Which is perhaps the best condition for a "supremely just and benevolent" being to be: already not involved in human affairs and being much able to neglect any, but still not too alien to take some interest and be able to feel compassion to humans.

In shorter words, Alt's good.

Johnny told you so to begin with, by the way. :p

-alt specifically said she has sent legions against Mikoshi, And that arasaka has a black ice preventing her from getting to mikoshi. And that if she could gain access, it would cease to exist. This is ingame dialogue.

-also in 2023, alt AI was captured by arasaka, this is why spider Murphy and Johnny had to go there an manually break her out.

-alt admitted to making a mistake with regards to the biological factor of relic 2.0 human interaction. This is proof she is not all powerful, or all knowing, and capable of mistakes or she's lying.

-much of your reconstruction of events has no basis on any information in game. Its a possibility, but not a reality.

if you look at how transcendental AI are described, you would realize that they are fundamentally a different existence to human consciousness. Its pointless to compare them. they are actually not even really "ai" as they are apparently a naturally occurring intelligence based on networks topology.
 
You see, some of very greatest works of art - in terms of the story told - are dramas. Romeo and Julliette lived through the centuries, even Cyberpunk has some gig from Padre which pays honors to R&J alright. There's no happy ending in R&J. This is why the question i asked here - is not an empty one.

And i don't have an answer.
There are a lot of posts about people's specific issues with the endings in the previous pages.

This in an RPG with choices, it falls under interactive storytelling. I don't enjoy RPGs shoehorning my character into "thematic" endings instead of giving me the chance to steer the story in a way that fits her (which they let me do in Act 1-2, or I wouldn't have any expectations about it). If it was a linear piece of media with a set character, I'd have no issue with it outside of the awful pacing in Act 3.
 
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funny that you can talk to nix in the afterlife and skill check is 3 INT
then v says: "...between us, netrunners..."
WHAAAAT???
Why, that's entirely normal. Netrunner does not mean smart. Netrunnner can be stupid, too. It's just that stupid netrunners usually very quickly end up being one big barbecue piece, so naturally, most of netrunners alive at any given time - are quite smart.

But once in a rare while, a stupid netrunnner can still persist around, by sheer Luck. Sure, other netrunners may well whisper and laugh behind poor fella's back, but then, let's be fair, they'll also envy their stupid collegue quite much, for being lucky is no small part in netrunner's career, and anyone having heaps of good luck - will inevitably gain a limb of mystery around their (possibly very stupid) head.

And that's how it can still seriously be "me, netrunner" even for INT=3 V. That and the fact V comes with a "solid gear... for a beginner" at the start of the game - even if INT=3, it still works. If only a bit. :D
 

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I agree, but please note that in the ending i had and described, V romanced Judy - not Panam; and yet it was Panam who helped V and much contributed to overall bright future the ending pictures.
I mentioned Judy in my comment as well. The point is, The Star ending wouldn't be seen as happy or the best ending if they weren't LIs or didn't go with V. Romance shouldn't make this much of a difference in how endings are viewed.

In the end, it's a gamer's failure to get a happy ending in this kind of RPGs - Cyberpunk, Mass Effect series, Fallout series, etc.
Everyone who wants a happy ending wants V to live without the 6 months timer hanging over their heads. Not a single ending gives that. So, is it really our failure that the game failed to provide this kind of ending and that the happiest you can get is running away into the desert but even then it's only happy if you picked one of the two very specific LIs?
 
hope is a key for everything
no hope - no motivation - no future



sorry, u need one more point :D
Quite amusingly, guys, i am actually playing an INT=3 V in my current playthrough, and the build is extremely very strict. I just _can't_ afford INT=4 without massive loss of capability for the goal i have set for the build to achieve. It's like someone in CDPR sectrely distributed perks, items and abilities in such a way that INT=3 (together with precise distribution of points to other stats, just one of 5 stats getting to 20) would be the only way to do the thing i am about to do... Like a hidden challenge, of sort.

So yeah. INT=3 has lots more to it than one might think. Quite ironically, it may well be the best overall build possible, too. But we'll see about that - need lots more time to see how it all comes out late-game. %)
 
I mentioned Judy in my comment as well. The point is, The Star ending wouldn't be seen as happy or the best ending if they weren't LIs or didn't go with V. Romance shouldn't make this much of a difference in how endings are viewed.


Everyone who wants a happy ending wants V to live without the 6 months timer hanging over their heads. Not a single ending gives that. So, is it really our failure that the game failed to provide this kind of ending and that the happiest you can get is running away into the desert but even then it's only happy if you picked one of the two very specific LIs?

the idea its only happy if you have an LI, is because some players can't imagine happiness without an LI. If you aren't in a relationship, panam ending is still about finding family and friends, and leaving the rat race. If that makes you happy, its a happy ending. No LI required
 
what if panam looks like joss and clair looks like judy?
or panam was a cop and judy was a superstar?
would that overturn preferences about finals?


INT=3 has lots more to it than one might think
when you have over 16 int u can spam broken optics and cripple movements not to look at the terrible behavior of ai
 
the idea its only happy if you have an LI, is because some players can't imagine happiness without an LI. If you aren't in a relationship, panam ending is still about finding family and friends, and leaving the rat race. If that makes you happy, its a happy ending. No LI required

I agree it can be happy with no LI, but, a straight male/gay female has 3 options for Star - romance Panam, romance Judy, or no romance. They have the option of a 'happy' romance ending or a 'happy' non-romance ending. with friends, family etc.

A gay male/straight female has only one option for Star - be happy with friends and family.

So if romance is important to you as a gay male/straight female, Star is so much more bitter.

The lack of options is the core issue, the player is almost punished for picking certain options. i know this has been discussed tons of times at this point, but it is still true.
 
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Everyone who wants a happy ending wants V to live without the 6 months timer hanging over their heads. Not a single ending gives that. So, is it really our failure that the game failed to provide this kind of ending and that the happiest you can get is running away into the desert but even then it's only happy if you picked one of the two very specific LIs?
1st, not everyone. Remember what Dex said early on about blaze of glory before one gets to one thirties? I recon few players truly share the view, but hey, at least few do. I guess the real issue with this, though - not quite enough "glory", right? I mean, when Tassadar sacrificed himself in Starcraft 1 to wipe out the Overmind, i never heard anybody complaining about him dying "still young" (arguably, for a protoss, he wasn't that old). Heck, lots of blaze there... So yeah, that's one side of it.

2nd, can't agree about "not a single ending". I mean, what about V going with Alt? Ain't no timer there. And given the fact Alt doesn't wipe V away while V's helpless "just created" engram, one can be quite confident V will have Alt's protection further on, too - beyond the Wall. And knowing Alt's story, that's a lot of protection. In fact, personally, i consider this ending the most happy ending, even.

How is it not?

Is it not that getting soulkilled is widely offered as a form of immortality?

Is it not that soulkilled Johnny remained very, very much human and alive in terms of his psyche, as we can personally experience in the game? And if he did, why V woulnd't, especially having no Arasaka vampires controlling V's engram existance at any point (which Johnny suffered, but endured, for ~50 years)?

Is it not that living among AIs beyond the wall _with_ future possibility to get back to the world of the living and "pull a Johnny" in some or other way - is the best of both worlds?

So to me, this is true happy ending. In a way, it's like encounters of 3rd kind, if you know what i mean. Most folks would never go. I would, gladly, instantly, willingly - even despite very unknown risks. It's clearly the case that one and same ending may be seen very differently depending on who's looking. A sign of a great work of art, this. Something to much respect this game for.
 
what if panam looks like joss and clair looks like judy?
or panam was a cop and judy was a superstar?
would that overturn preferences about finals?



when you have over 16 int u can spam broken optics and cripple movements not to look at the terrible behavior of ai

I doubt it. Clair has a lot of fans, and Joss isn't ugly. I mean maybe, Hard for me to say. my preferred ending is sun no LI. Or maybe panam sun ending. So it wouldn't bother me.
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I agree it can be happy with no LI, but, a straight male/gay female has 3 options for Star - romance Panam, romance Judy, or no romance. They have the option of a 'happy' romance ending or a 'happy' non-romance ending. with friends, family etc.

A gay male/straight female has only one option for Star - be happy with friends and family.

So if romance is important to you as a gay male/straight female, Star is so much more bitter.

The lack of options is the core issue, the player is almost punished for picking certain options. i know this has been discussed tons of times at this point, but it is still true.


Well as I said before, I think having to leave your LI to go on a mission for a couple weeks is Not really an ending where you can't be happy with your LI. By the end of that discussion you can end with I'll miss you, see you soon. I just can't realistically think of that as being denied a happy ending. Has no one gone a business trip?
 
2nd, can't agree about "not a single ending". I mean, what about V going with Alt? Ain't no timer there. And given the fact Alt doesn't wipe V away while V's helpless "just created" engram, one can be quite confident V will have Alt's protection further on, too - beyond the Wall. And knowing Alt's story, that's a lot of protection. In fact, personally, i consider this ending the most happy ending, even.

How is it not?

Is it not that getting soulkilled is widely offered as a form of immortality?
If V is not consumed by Alt, yes. They'll be transformed but potentially immortal, not a bad deal. I'm just not really reassured by the fact that the epilogue shows Johnny instead of V in cyberspace (or both), and Alt is vague about the consequences of crossing the bridge. Johnny treats it as a sacrifice (with the grave and all), and Misty's cards are pretty bad.
 
I doubt it. Clair has a lot of fans, and Joss isn't ugly. I mean maybe, Hard for me to say. my preferred ending is sun no LI. Or maybe panam sun ending. So it wouldn't bother me.
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Well as I said before, I think having to leave your LI to go on a mission for a couple weeks is Not really an ending where you can't be happy with your LI. By the end of that discussion you can end with I'll miss you, see you soon. I just can't realistically think of that as being denied a happy ending. Has no one gone a business trip?

I'm talking strictly the Star ending. The sun, could be happy if you think V will pull it off, sure.
 
I'm talking strictly the Star ending. The sun, could be happy if you think V will pull it off, sure.

ah, misread. Yeah, if love is your primary goal, you have to pick the path your lover picks. But I think thats pretty realistic. Honestly if you are most happy with a nomad life, and River/Kerry are not, they were never a good fit anyhow.

I think the issue is its an open question whether the game should be the determining factor, or the narrative vision. If the goal is to equally reward all player types, its a bad design. If the goal is to have more consistent charachters/story its actually a pretty good design.
 
Johnny treats it as a sacrifice (with the grave and all), and Misty's cards are pretty bad.

This is when Misty says 'something like death but not quite' right? I can't remember exactly.

Edit - I looked it up. She does say that, and the draw is hanged man, magician, and star.

You have hope and surviving through will in the star and magician, but the hanged man is not great sounding, especially in cyberspace context, especially that pain suspended in time part.

The Hanged Man is the card of sacrifice. It says that a price must be paid in order to achieve enlightenment. The Hanged Man's forsakenness opens the path for rebirth into a new life, though this path is wrought with pain suspended in time and ultimately ends in death

Interpret that draw how you will, but it doesn't exactly sound happy to me, especially factoring in Misty's comment.
 
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This is when Misty says 'something like death but not quite' right? I can't remember exactly.

yep. Well maybe is looking from a human perspective, or maybe she is looking of the small% of V thats probably still in Johnny. Then again Alt seems to suggest it is a state of inbetween life and death. But she also thinks digital conciousness's shouldnt crave the mortal animal form, so who knows.
 
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