Tutors everywhere

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The echo tutors are a lazy band-aid solution to bronzes being too weak compared to high-end golds.
It ultimately allows what used to be perfectly fine risky decks like Pavetta/Lippy to run rampant.
High risk high reward decks do not exist anymore in Gwent because players who didn't like risks wanted to play them and subsequently became upset when they realized they were in fact risky. Now there is just reward.

What the people defending the echo tutors always leave out is the fact that we had a fair amount of tutor options before, only they didn't guarantee you to play anything you want anytime you want TWICE. Anyone remember Royal Decree? Matta?

I'm fine with category tutors that come at a cost like Quen. And tutors that are there to thin out your options a bit like War Council.
But with MM the devs did as they tend to which is to go overboard to the extreme and effectively powercrept these perfectly fine tutors to the point where every single top tier deck is now forced to include universal tutors although this was already starting to become an issue before this (Call of the Forest).
Actually saw Royal Decree played today. And not for drawing Viy one additional time, but in NG deck for Anna-Henrietta. Too bad Blaze of Glory only works when you have SK units in your deck :D
 
Tutors add consistency and makes the game less frustrating, so I think they have a pretty positive impact on the game. If you want you can still exlude them but it will make your game way more uneven in their performance.

That being said, Oneiromancy still likely needs a provision nerf given its prevalence.
 
Tutors add consistency and makes the game less frustrating, so I think they have a pretty positive impact on the game. If you want you can still exlude them but it will make your game way more uneven in their performance.

That being said, Oneiromancy still likely needs a provision nerf given its prevalence.
Provision nerfs rarely solve anything. No amount of nerfs to scenarios stopped them from being overused (especially in NG and SK decks, where they were almost always replayed). Only making scenarios doomed (after about a year after their introduction the devs finally got this quite obvious idea) forced players to look for other supportive strategies. And if the card is truly broken, bad players cling to it, replacing more expensive cards in their (or some other players') decks with almost unusable cheap trash just to keep THE ONE CARD available.
So I still think that tutors shouldn't be echoes. That would allow making them cheaper to free space for other useful cards, while still giving players chance to use a powerful tutor to escape a bad draw if they wish. Other echo cards should also be reworked the same way - imo, echo mechanics just invites overuse and overreliance.
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I'm fine with category tutors that come at a cost like Quen.
To be honest, Quen frustrates the hell out of me. But not because it is a tutor, but because it completely defies lore logic. What does Quen sign has to do with playing additional witcher? Geralt: Quen should give shield - either as an order or by working similar to Prophet Lebeda. Leo should play additional witcher instead - him being an apprentice witcher who needs a mentor's escort.
 
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I'm fine with category tutors that come at a cost like Quen. And tutors that are there to thin out your options a bit like War Council.
But with MM the devs did as they tend to which is to go overboard to the extreme and effectively powercrept these perfectly fine tutors to the point where every single top tier deck is now forced to include universal tutors although this was already starting to become an issue before this (Call of the Forest).
I have to say I agree with this. Earlier tutors, especially the ones with faction/category synergy & flavor are a must in the game, and actually require skill and some extra brain cells to use. I'd gladly go back to those, anyday.
On the other hand - just as you mention - these super-tutors are there because of the playerbase. This was one of the top demand changes players wanted to reduce "luck" as a factor as per the reasoning. Well, here we are - things are definitely a lot more reliable, but also more streamlined. That is what you get if you reduce/eliminate luck in a card game.
 
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BTW, met rows of your favorite consistent one trick ponies today - all playing Foltest r1, spamming stripes, resurrecting them wirth Pavetta r2, then resurrecting Pavetta r3 and playing Roche. Such diversity, much fun.
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In a way... yes. This deck basically exists because of this card. Even with the other tutor it's just a little too inconsistent, though enough for funplay.

Removing Echo could indeed be a solution. Its whole purpose is to make combo-decks viable.

History has shown that playing things twice is, quite frankly, never fun. The Lippy deck is not an exception to this rule, though I love Lippy. They just need to be a little more creative. Compare the legendary "Beta Queensguard" deck with the "Cerys" deck now and it looks like a joke in comparison (from a gameplay perspective).
 
When I saw the Echo mencanic the first time, I thougt it will be something like: play the card, after the first use, you have another but weaker (as echo in reality). For example, Oneiro tutoring only a bronze the second time you use it. But it wasn't that at the end, only a nuclear bomb tutor.
I think it could be interesting to give a weaker use to the second echo card's effect, balancing their strenghs.
 
When I saw the Echo mencanic the first time I thougt it will be something like: play the card, after the first use, you have another but weaker (as echo in reality). For examole, Oneiro tutoring only a bronze the second time you use it. But it wasn't that at the end, only a nuclear bomb tutor.
^This exactly. This is how I want the tutors in this game to work.

Oneiro 1st use: draw anything
Oneiro 2nd use: draw a bronze

Am.Assault 1st use: draw a NR unit up to prov 9 (and boost him accordingly)
Am.Assault 2nd use: draw a NR unit up to prov 6 (and boost up to 6)

and so on.
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Not exactly, because Royal Decree only tutors criatures.
True that.
 
When I saw the Echo mencanic the first time, I thougt it will be something like: play the card, after the first use, you have another but weaker (as echo in reality).
^This exactly. This is how I want the tutors in this game to work.

Oneiro 1st use: draw anything
Oneiro 2nd use: draw a bronze
Hmm. Personally, I rather like this idea: Soften the second play of Echo cards.
 
I also like the idea of Echo getting a weaker effect the second time it's used. Oneiro and AA, at least, could definitely use such a nerf, plus like was said it would make logical sense too.

But it wouldn't make sense to only change tutor Echos, and the other three don't really deserve a nerf imo.
Although I suppose Coup could be considered a tutor since it's often used on Roderick. :p
 
I also like the idea of Echo getting a weaker effect the second time it's used. Oneiro and AA, at least, could definitely use such a nerf, plus like was said it would make logical sense too.

But it wouldn't make sense to only change tutor Echos, and the other three don't really deserve a nerf imo.
Although I suppose Coup could be considered a tutor since it's often used on Roderick. :p
Non-titor echoes could also be made weaker on their second play - like halving nature echo boost, reducing judgment damage.
 
But it wouldn't make sense to only change tutor Echos, and the other three don't really deserve a nerf imo.
I'm not so sure about that. Of course, after the nerf the provision cost of these tutors or other echo cards should be adjusted accordingly, maiking them available for less points.
Fortunately, we can use a bit of creativity in order to make them "weaker" on second use.

Some ideas:

Blood Eagle
1st use: current effect, draw a Warrior unit up to provision 8, any warrior at Bloodthrist 3
2nd use: draw a Warrior unit up to provision 8, any warrior at Bloodthirst 5

Coup de Grace
1st use: current effect, 3 dmg
2nd use: current effect, 1 dmg

Dies Irae
1st use: current effect
2nd use: only boost Firesworn units

Ard Gaeth
1st use: 4 turn effect on both rows
2nd use: 3 turn effect on both rows
 
When I saw the Echo mencanic the first time, I thougt it will be something like: play the card, after the first use, you have another but weaker (as echo in reality). For example, Oneiro tutoring only a bronze the second time you use it. But it wasn't that at the end, only a nuclear bomb tutor.
I think it could be interesting to give a weaker use to the second echo card's effect, balancing their strenghs.
That's brilliant! Did you suggest the to the devs? This would make all the echo cards far more interesting while keeping them unique, unlike my idea of removing echo mechanics completely.
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I'm not so sure about that. Of course, after the nerf the provision cost of these tutors or other echo cards should be adjusted accordingly, maiking them available for less points.
Fortunately, we can use a bit of creativity in order to make them "weaker" on second use.

Some ideas:

Blood Eagle
1st use: current effect, draw a Warrior unit up to provision 8, any warrior at Bloodthrist 3
2nd use: draw a Warrior unit up to provision 8, any warrior at Bloodthirst 5

Coup de Grace
1st use: current effect, 3 dmg
2nd use: current effect, 1 dmg

Dies Irae
1st use: current effect
2nd use: only boost Firesworn units

Ard Gaeth
1st use: 4 turn effect on both rows
2nd use: 3 turn effect on both rows
Coup de Grace damage is almost irrelevant with its current major use on golden spies, so its echo effect should be made weaker AND different. Maybe tying it to devotion, adrenaline or specific unit? Or simply removing deathblow effect always working when targeting spies.
I think second echo use should be similar to a bronze special of its faction. So maybe second Ard Gaeth should rather resemble Red Riders?
 
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It's sounds like a nice idea to have the echo mechanic lessen on second play, but in reality that would go against what you want most of the time, to save as much strength as you can for round 3. Maybe that's desirable if you want to nerf them, but it does feel like a pretty big nerf to me. Might lead to some interesting things, though. I like the onieromancy only pulling bronzes on echo especially, as it would encourage having strong bronze-based combos in round 3, rather than just all your fancy golds. But it would also definitely make the cards more complicated to understand for newer players, and give more tricky decisions in games.
 
It's sounds like a nice idea to have the echo mechanic lessen on second play, but in reality that would go against what you want most of the time, to save as much strength as you can for round 3. Maybe that's desirable if you want to nerf them, but it does feel like a pretty big nerf to me. Might lead to some interesting things, though. I like the onieromancy only pulling bronzes on echo especially, as it would encourage having strong bronze-based combos in round 3, rather than just all your fancy golds. But it would also definitely make the cards more complicated to understand for newer players, and give more tricky decisions in games.
It won't be THAT hard to understand. And benefits of such a modification for variety and new tactical schemes will definitely outweigh the necessity of people having to think a little harder
 
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