Yep. You got me. I don't like the noble savages, which lead to one of the most romanticized endings imaginable if you played the game the way they wanted you to, so the only other ending I could want is one where V gets everything.
I can understand that, I remember reading years ago one of those essays that estated that "cyberpunk genre was dominated by a male vision" and something like that and probably was not an unfair statement, I´m not sure if that reflected to Judy/Panam (and is not fair, I agree).
Not sure about CDPR creative team, but they should have included a partner leaving regardless of choices (or split romance from endings all together). I can only think, that Kerry in a road-trip doesn´t really fit and River is family tied but its really a poor excuse.
To me personally, romance options leaving or staying isn't a problem. I actually like that they do that, makes them feel more realistic and I found each of their reasons for leaving understandable. My issue is that the Sun ending could have been more optimistic. Not asking for sunshine and rainbows, just something less bitter.
The way I chose to play my V, he had pretty much everything he ever wanted (minus long life) in the Sun ending, but there's not a single line of dialogue where V sounded optimistic. V's deal with Mr. Blue Eyes is left vague, so unless CDPR is planning to do something with the endings, all I'm left with are one line of dialogue from Mr. Blue Eyes and headcanons so I wouldn't feel like the game is punishing me for not picking the "correct" ending and one of their favored LIs.
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Ah no need to apologize, that wasn't rude
Some corpo characters have a more pragmatic approach towards corps and their job (Meredith, corpo V, Rachel as much as I dislike her), he could keep working for them but get over the blind trust. I mean ,he pretty much idolizes Hanako and has no qualms about V signing the contract. Though if Saburo's actions in The Devil aren't enough to shake him, I don't know what could.
To me it isn't the idea of LI leaving or staying isn't necessarily the problem. it's the forced treatment of V that is the problem with it. Kill some nomads you leave with nomads, don't kill some nomads you must become the withdrawn afterlife waste of space. If LI's motivations are so important why can't we priortise them.
not necessarily, takemura implies that the degrade will be rapid at the end, and delamain could be talking specifically about the last few weeks being tough. The li's also are only saying V has been distant few days, not that its only been a short time since mikoshi. sun does seem to be the farthest along time wise. Its likely the most time has passed in the sun, they talk about changing meds, V has built an empire, and they seem more worse for wear, and closer to the edge. V suggests this is their last chance to make a difference. Panam ending also suggests V believes they only got a few months left. This also explains why people feel V sounds different, V is sicker in this ending.
devil is the shortest time difference, covering days to 3-4 weeks after mikoshi, Star is probably 4-6 weeks after, and sun seems to be 6-12 weeks after.
of course they never give you hard dates, so it could easily be fudged/tweaked for whatever they got planned next.
i really think the "path of glory" epilogue happens 4-5 months after mikoshi. it looks like it's the last for V to prove something to NC (we don't really know why since she is already a legend) or to do a suicide mission to save herself. for the LI i find that for kerry it is less tragic than for a character like judy that you will never see again ... (for river i dont know).
but as for the timeline if CDPR miraculously decide to do a big dlc on V, all endings could converge on MBE as a last chance 1 or 2 months before V's death. Everything would become more logical
the end "devil" you stay a lot of time in space.
if you call judy she tells you to come home quickly that she is hanging out.
during the holo messages she tells V that it is finished she leaves NC.
I think V stays with arasaka for at least 2 months ...
unless CDPR just didn't write holo messages for judy and run a random one
but as for the timeline if CDPR miraculously decide to do a big dlc on V, all endings could converge on MBE as a last chance 1 or 2 months before V's death. Everything would become more logical
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I think the closest timeline is that of the end "star"
the end "devil" you stay a lot of time in space.
if you call judy she tells you to come home quickly that she is hanging out.
during the holo messages she tells V that it is finished she leaves NC.
I think V stays with arasaka for at least 2 months ...
unless CDPR just didn't write holo messages for judy and run a random one
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not sure where you get suicide terrorist. People need to stop looking at optional dialog as a cannon definitive answer. V doesn't have to say they are in it to die. There is a strong implication they are doing it to survive, V can literally tell panam they are not trying to die alone. And terrorism? You could say v is a selfish mercenary/thief, but nothing he has done so far is ideological, or designed to create an emotional reaction. V attacks for self preservation, or for money at someone else's request.
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long ago some one found the files in a folder with voice acting datamining, the voices are supposedly labeled by days since mikoshi. The devil ending starts really close timewise to mikoshi, and covers about 1 month(according to the datamine) if you count the days they specifically show, its about 16 I think (v has a routine every day). As for the messages, they aren't all from the same time frame, some are from before the last scene, some are from after. This is clearer when you look at Vik in devil, who sends the message while you are up there, And panam/judy who are sending you a message some time after the last scene. Kerry is also post last scene. So the messages can be from anytime after mikoshi to some time after the final scene.
however the reality is Judy is not willing to stay that long in NC waiting. She wanted to leave since pyramid song, If v isn't around for a month, I wouldn't be surprised if she left.
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Hmm... fair point. I personally didn't see V building contacts and such as taking that long as they're already relatively well regarded mercenary before the endings, at least as far as other fixers are concerned, and they "inherit" Afterlife from Rogue which might have included some of her resources and contacts that might be willing to work with V.
Hopefully, should we get post-endings content that one would probably converge endings timeline-wise as well with V having equal amount of time left for some tension and that they won't pull "uh-oh this time frame we put specifically and gave you no chance to influence means that V is too far gone to be helped. Should have picked the nomads."
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In the femV/River Sun ending V says she's been preparing for the Crystal Palace job for the "past few months". No clue how much time passed after Mikoshi before V was contacted by MBE but they did go back and forth before V accepted. It does seem like the Sun is the furthest ahead compared to the rest and V unsurprisingly sounds the most... sickly. It makes the timing of romanced Judy's departure even worse
As for V's tone, I bounce between V is sick, V is more like Johnny now and mirrors his relationships, or V chose blaze of glory and this is what it looks like.
As for V's tone, I bounce between V is sick, V is more like Johnny now and mirrors his relationships, or V chose blaze of glory and this is what it looks like.
It's definitely not helped in FemV/River Sun ending that there's no implication that things will get better after that job is over. There's no option to say "I'm sorry I've been distant, after this job things will (or might) get better" because any placating answers to his whole "why are you being like this" line of questioning are immediately followed by "this is all I know, we live in two different worlds" or "because I've still got something to prove to the city." It sets the whole tone as V is just Like That now.
At the River dinner, my V picked the option of expressing the desire to have or be a part of a family someday because she would love the gatherings. But then they railroaded Vs desires in the endings so aggressively when River is inviting her to the exact kind of gatherings she expressed longing for, she hems and haws and has a fit over it, talking about the dirty world of the Afterlife and being actively dying before they bicker back and forth until Delmain shows up.
I also don't like that the like 4 times River or his sister bring up that River is looking for something serious/long term your only responses can be "well uhhhhhhhhhhhhhh idk maybe" or "lol no". Like they knew even then that they weren't going to give V the chance to be with River.
They made some of those Act 1 streetkid gonk lines unavoidable and it felt really out of alignment with why I chose to stay in NC and even who I thought V had become after completing Act 3.
River's was definitely more negative than Kerry's. I'm so sorry River, I can't control this
.The more time i spend thinking about the Sun ending the more angry i get at its horrid railroading
This is exactly how I perceived the Sun ending as well. Even said in another topic that I believe it was a great reference to Icarus.In "sun", well for me (me,personal opinion) is just a suicide run that you take because you have no expectations at all and is also the reason why you are chosen. i was all the time under the impression that "sun" is a reference to Icarus (having a dream and dying trying to achieve it, overambitious):
"
"The Fall of Icarus" in Art – Joy of Museums Virtual Tours
“The Fall of Icarus” in Art and Paintings Many famous painters have captured the story of “The Fall of Icarus” in Art: “The Fall of Icarus” by Jacob Peter Gowy – Museo del Prado, Madrid “Daedalus and Icarus” by Anthony van Dyck – Art Gallery of Ontario “The Lament for Icarus” by Herbert James...joyofmuseums.com
“The Fall of Icarus” by Merry-Joseph Blondel
“The Fall of Icarus” by Merry-Joseph Blondel is an oil painting on the ceiling of the Rotunda of Apollo, in the Louvre museum, in Paris. Blondel depicts Icarus falling after his wings melted when he flew too close to the Sun god Helios"
I think that is also know as the "Sun" (anybody with a little bit more of education than a poor engineer can confirm?), but one way or another it reminds me "Icarus" myth that ending.
In the ending when talking to Mr. Blue Eyes V says the following: "The time I had anything to gain is long gone, now... now I got nothing to lose"
To me this doesn't translate at all in any way into V having hope to come alive from this mission at all. Maybe they still hold some tiny piece of hope for it, but it feels to me personally they largely accepted their fate and decided to go out in the Blaze of Glory, burning bright one last time, before going out. After all there is no living legends in Night city, right? The bleak dark and depressing tones of the whole ending, despite being called the Sun kinda just further confirms this for me.
when someone says I got nothin to lose, it rarely means they aren't intending to win, it usually means they are in a dire situation. Basically means its a must win situation. In sun this is V's last chance, he tells pan am hes only got a few months left, and takamura says the last month is probably a rapid decline.
you've got nothing to lose
1. used to say that you cannot make things worse, or cause any disadvantages…
dictionary.cambridge.org
also there were many living legends, Morgan black hand, rogue, saburo arasaka adam smasher, Kerry . And they are all 80+ Rogue's drink list was actually more about her specifically, for her, drinks were a remembrance to the people she lost. She kinda makes this clear in secret ending the purpose of the drinks. Claire's interpretation was her own.
Now I'm not saying that they didnt build the type of narrative you are talking about, it is one of the ways they let you frame V's motivation in the ending. But I am saying they built the ending such that it isn't the only way it can play out. Essentially the player's choices in the ending decide whether its how you take it, or whether V was trying to survive, or make his life significant.
Terrorist? V just goes for a very difficult mission. Crystal palace is much better guarded and there is a higher chance for V to die. V is dying anyway, so she/he doesn't risk anything.
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Even Delmain is more positive
I can agree with that, but in this case the first part of the sentence is more significant for how I personally read into it. They say they have nothing to gain, which wouldn't be something they will say if it was must win it situation I feel. Again that's my own take on it, of course. Not saying it's the only right takewhen someone says I got nothin to lose, it rarely means they aren't intending to win, it usually means they are in a dire situation. Basically means its a must win situation. In sun this is V's last chance, he tells pan am hes only got a few months left, and takamura says the last month is probably a rapid decline.
you've got nothing to lose
1. used to say that you cannot make things worse, or cause any disadvantages…
Not sure I agree for the most part. Rogue was never presented as a living legend imo. She was presented as one of the best if not the best Merc in the city and Queen of Fixers, but nobody ever refered to her, as a legend far, as I remember I might have missed something ofc. Kerry is a popular celeb, not a legend in the Afterlife. Adam Smasher -- not sure he even qualifies as a living human at this point. He is almost 100% machine and also dead by the time of the ending. Saburo is dead by the time of the Sun ending as well after Alt destroys Mikoshi, his engram probably tangled up with all of the rest. Morgan Blackhand is the only one that might be an actual living legend from what I've seen in the game, but nobody really knows what happened to him.
Of course, like I said it's my own take on the ending. I've done it only once and never did it again, because first it left sour taste for me and also it doesn't fit into the type of a character I usually play V as, so I might have missed hint and details that leave room for a different take on it.
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You can also try to see it from the point where you make the decision 1st time, since I was not following any guides or didn´t check any spoilers I made a reasoning like (I ended with Star in 1st walkthrough):
-Commit suicide: V is already tired of keep fighting, don´t see hope and don´t want to risk anybody because he/she doesn´t think there is a chance of surviving. It conflicts with the tone of "never give up" presented in-game, but you can also think that indeed life sucks.
-Call Hanako: basically you put your fate in a promise by an Arasaka heir that was educated to follow Saburo vision. At this point of the game, it kind of beat me why anybody would trust Arasaka at all but is a decision (and Johnny is quite strong advising you against) that you as V can make (I bet many people choose that just to show the middle finger to Johnny).
-Call Panam: in this V decides to don´t follow Johnny advice, and trust new friends/family (putting them at risk). Is kind of rebuilding hope after all you went through the game that puts you after the Heist as somebody without family, with Jackie dead .
-Call Rogue: here you are giving the option to Johnny to recreate his assault in 2013 to Arasaka with Rogue, felt more like a Johny decision than a V decision. You decide to don´t trust those who offered help and go the "professional" way,Johnny mentioned in the past that even his friends "couldn´t stay in the same room as him" so its not surprising that you might end alone at the end.
Even if you would have died there, you would have died as Johnny not V (and you didn´t know in advance that you were going to survive) which I was not willing to do.
Also remember that Misty (I love that character), before taking a decision kind of warns you against being a "Legend"... it was what Jackie wanted, and you know how he ended.
In suicide/Hanako/Panam cases I would say that its V who is in control the whole time, in calling Rogue I felt that V was being used (one more time) by Johnny to get his revenge.
If the story is meant to be V's story (looks like Relic+Saburo, with V as unwillingly protagonist); suicide/Hanako/Panam decisions fit better to me as V than calling Rogue.
Which one (if any) wll be canon, no clue. I would say "star", since it seems that is the one that keeps V in good terms with all NPCs, is the one where Rogue doesn´t die at all and you frustrate both Saburo and Yorinobu plans (Yorinobu was not counting with a massive economic loss at all, he is still in control). They can do re-writings and merging if they want, but they have some world insonsistencies and some NPCs need to die/resurrect/change how their relationship with V is.
-Commit suicide: V is already tired of keep fighting, don´t see hope and don´t want to risk anybody because he/she doesn´t think there is a chance of surviving. It conflicts with the tone of "never give up" presented in-game, but you can also think that indeed life sucks.
-Call Hanako: basically you put your fate in a promise by an Arasaka heir that was educated to follow Saburo vision. At this point of the game, it kind of beat me why anybody would trust Arasaka at all but is a decision (and Johnny is quite strong advising you against) that you as V can make (I bet many people choose that just to show the middle finger to Johnny).
-Call Panam: in this V decides to don´t follow Johnny advice, and trust new friends/family (putting them at risk). Is kind of rebuilding hope after all you went through the game that puts you after the Heist as somebody without family, with Jackie dead .
-Call Rogue: here you are giving the option to Johnny to recreate his assault in 2013 to Arasaka with Rogue, felt more like a Johny decision than a V decision. You decide to don´t trust those who offered help and go the "professional" way,Johnny mentioned in the past that even his friends "couldn´t stay in the same room as him" so its not surprising that you might end alone at the end.
Even if you would have died there, you would have died as Johnny not V (and you didn´t know in advance that you were going to survive) which I was not willing to do.
Also remember that Misty (I love that character), before taking a decision kind of warns you against being a "Legend"... it was what Jackie wanted, and you know how he ended.
In suicide/Hanako/Panam cases I would say that its V who is in control the whole time, in calling Rogue I felt that V was being used (one more time) by Johnny to get his revenge.
If the story is meant to be V's story (looks like Relic+Saburo, with V as unwillingly protagonist); suicide/Hanako/Panam decisions fit better to me as V than calling Rogue.
Which one (if any) wll be canon, no clue. I would say "star", since it seems that is the one that keeps V in good terms with all NPCs, is the one where Rogue doesn´t die at all and you frustrate both Saburo and Yorinobu plans (Yorinobu was not counting with a massive economic loss at all, he is still in control). They can do re-writings and merging if they want, but they have some world insonsistencies and some NPCs need to die/resurrect/change how their relationship with V is.
Had an interesting take on from Johnny yesterday after deciding to postpone the last part of the Voodoo Boys segment (sided with Netwatch but decided to tell Brigitte that I was going to look for other options before agreeing to go to the Blackwall).
So basically I finished both the Parade and completed the Aldecaldos quest line before doing the last segment and eventually meeting Alt and during our conversations not only Johnny and V seemed more in line with their opinions but it went to the point where Johnny actually told Alt that V has a nomad family ready to do anything for them - the human factor that Johnny and Alt were banking on when it comes to infiltrating Mikoshi.
I thought it was interesting since in my previous playthroughs Johnny was somewhat dismissive of the Aldecaldos in general and thought that the only way was his way.
So basically I finished both the Parade and completed the Aldecaldos quest line before doing the last segment and eventually meeting Alt and during our conversations not only Johnny and V seemed more in line with their opinions but it went to the point where Johnny actually told Alt that V has a nomad family ready to do anything for them - the human factor that Johnny and Alt were banking on when it comes to infiltrating Mikoshi.
I thought it was interesting since in my previous playthroughs Johnny was somewhat dismissive of the Aldecaldos in general and thought that the only way was his way.