[Spoiler Alert] About the endings

[Ayinde_Palmer]

You can also try to see it from the point where you make the decision 1st time, since I was not following any guides or didn´t check any spoilers I made a reasoning like (I ended with Star in 1st walkthrough):

-Commit suicide: V is already tired of keep fighting, don´t see hope and don´t want to risk anybody because he/she doesn´t think there is a chance of surviving. It conflicts with the tone of "never give up" presented in-game, but you can also think that indeed life sucks.

-Call Hanako: basically you put your fate in a promise by an Arasaka heir that was educated to follow Saburo vision. At this point of the game, it kind of beat me why anybody would trust Arasaka at all but is a decision (and Johnny is quite strong advising you against) that you as V can make (I bet many people choose that just to show the middle finger to Johnny).

-Call Panam: in this V decides to don´t follow Johnny advice, and trust new friends/family (putting them at risk). Is kind of rebuilding hope after all you went through the game that puts you after the Heist as somebody without family, with Jackie dead .

-Call Rogue: here you are giving the option to Johnny to recreate his assault in 2013 to Arasaka with Rogue, felt more like a Johny decision than a V decision. You decide to don´t trust those who offered help and go the "professional" way,Johnny mentioned in the past that even his friends "couldn´t stay in the same room as him" so its not surprising that you might end alone at the end.
Even if you would have died there, you would have died as Johnny not V (and you didn´t know in advance that you were going to survive) which I was not willing to do.

Also remember that Misty (I love that character), before taking a decision kind of warns you against being a "Legend"... it was what Jackie wanted, and you know how he ended.

In suicide/Hanako/Panam cases I would say that its V who is in control the whole time, in calling Rogue I felt that V was being used (one more time) by Johnny to get his revenge.
If the story is meant to be V's story (looks like Relic+Saburo, with V as unwillingly protagonist); suicide/Hanako/Panam decisions fit better to me as V than calling Rogue.

Which one (if any) wll be canon, no clue. I would say "star", since it seems that is the one that keeps V in good terms with all NPCs, is the one where Rogue doesn´t die at all and you frustrate both Saburo and Yorinobu plans (Yorinobu was not counting with a massive economic loss at all, he is still in control). They can do re-writings and merging if they want, but they have some world insonsistencies and some NPCs need to die/resurrect/change how their relationship with V is.

secret ending seems like the way in which V is supposed to approach the sun ending.

Sun ending via rogue path is essentially a gift to V from Johnny. The big success he is being rewarded for isn't quite earned. Johnny is the one to choose if V lives or dies. This sort of works for the legend motivation of ending, because perhaps V feels he hasn't earned this success he is living, but it is as you say, not really Vs choice.

It comes together very differently from secret ending, in which V takes control of the situation, risks big, and wins big. He is then in the driver's seat in mikoshi, he makes the decision to stay alive, he says he wants every moment of life he can get, and Johnny tells him never to stop fighting as he goes into the well. This frames the scene very differently, and makes it seem less likely V is suicidal. It comes more together as V never quitting, going big, and risking as few people as possible. Which lines up well with secret ending.

oh yeah, rogue lives, and V is on good terms with all npcs, if you were on good terms with them when you end the game if you do secret ending.

 

[OG_VELI]

I thought it was interesting since in my previous playthroughs Johnny was somewhat dismissive of the Aldecaldos in general and thought that the only way was his way.

Yeah, Johnny's tone can change depending on what you finished first.

I believe you can get more positive responses in some questlines from him if you finished his questline first as well.

 

[exxxed]

Yeah, Johnny's tone can change depending on what you finished first.

I believe you can get more positive responses in some questlines from him if you finished his questline first as well.

I honestly thought I was just imagining it, my previous playthrough was a no bs Corpo that doesn't like having Johnny in their head and the conversations were a lot different (except for the hard coded lines which are the same) and way less frequent, usually resulting in both of them mocking each other.

 

[Didacgomez]

secret ending seems like the way in which V is supposed to approach the sun ending.

Sun ending via rogue path is essentially a gift to V from Johnny. The big success he is being rewarded for isn't quite earned. Johnny is the one to choose if V lives or dies. This sort of works for the legend motivation of ending, because perhaps V feels he hasn't earned this success he is living, but it is as you say, not really Vs choice.

It comes together very differently from secret ending, in which V takes control of the situation, risks big, and wins big. He is then in the driver's seat in mikoshi, he makes the decision to stay alive, he says he wants every moment of life he can get, and Johnny tells him never to stop fighting as he goes into the well. This frames the scene very differently, and makes it seem less likely V is suicidal. It comes more together as V never quitting, going big, and risking as few people as possible. Which lines up well with secret ending.

oh yeah, rogue lives, and V is on good terms with all npcs, if you were on good terms with them when you end the game if you do secret ending.

Still approaching sun via secret doesn´t feel like a 100% V in control right? You take that approach from Johnny suggestion, and if I recall correctly its the only one where you don´t take pills-so you see V + Johnny on-screen-?,so its not V 100% its V + Johnny.

Maybe is what it ends up canonized, yet it feels weird that CDPR makes the ending that less players have experienced canon (it wouldn´t be the 1st weird decision of CDPR in this game).

 

[AikoHayashi]

Still approaching sun via secret doesn´t feel like a 100% V in control right? You take that approach from Johnny suggestion, and if I recall correctly its the only one where you don´t take pills-so you see V + Johnny on-screen-?,so its not V 100% its V + Johnny.

Maybe is what it ends up canonized, yet it feels weird that CDPR makes the ending that less players have experienced canon (it wouldn´t be the 1st weird decision of CDPR in this game).

The secret ending is V+Johnny, but V has the control, as during the whole gameplay where the magic pills are not used. Johnny gives advice and comments, but V decides what and how to do it. For me, it was 100% V in control plus Johnny as a good friend and companion.

 

[SirKraeutereule]

To me this doesn't translate at all in any way into V having hope to come alive from this mission at all.

And yet, I couldn't stop V from saying "I promise" when Kerry wanted to promise him to come back alive. I said it before but that sentence is the reason I believe that V knows something we as a player don't know (yet). Since you got The Sun ending it means you kept the most important promise, which was becoming a legend to Jackie. You also helped Johnny to get his revenge which felt like a promise as well after his personal storyline. For both of them you went on a suicide mission during the solo run on Arasaka and in the end you did everything to not only reach Mikoshi but also to keep your promises to your best friends. So, for someone like V who takes his promises this serious I kinda doubt he would do something like that even though he knows from the beginning he wouldn't be able to keep it. If it would have been me I would have said "I can't promise anything" but I wasn't allowed to do that, V just said "I promise". That's a red flag imo especially when Mr. B also mentioned the fact he never forgets a promise - just like our V in The Sun ending.

We are still the same V who we played hours before that and they are not stupid. Arrogant and reckless maybe but not stupid so they wouldn't agree to a deal where they already know beforehand they will die. In case you saw Mr. Blue-Eyes during "Dream On" I will even add: V wouldn't make a deal with someone they know could be associated with the Peralz issue. At least not without having something up their sleeve and a VERY good reason. For a possible DLC they could even combine those two storylines and solve both of them.

 

[Didacgomez]

The secret ending is V+Johnny, but V has the control, as during the whole gameplay where the magic pills are not used. Johnny gives advice and comments, but V decides what and how to do it. For me, it was 100% V in control plus Johnny as a good friend and companion.

I know, I know that V is driving in the cockpit and that V and Johnny reached a high affinity (is because you like him or because he's been overwriting V ?, to reach that affinity you need to think/act more and more as Johnny).
But still feels like V is unable to take a decision on his/her own. You are put on that balcony to take a decision, you get two pills (not very subtle reference to a well known movie with a very well known actor) and a gun and you still you cannot decide to be yourself.

Arrogant and reckless maybe but not stupid so they wouldn't agree to a deal where they already know beforehand they will die.

Well, here I guess that is the main difference "reading" the sun. You would agree for a suicide mission if you are already dead and want to be remembered for ages.

In case you saw Mr. Blue-Eyes during "Dream On" I will even add: V wouldn't make a deal with someone they know could be associated with the Peralz issue. At least not without having something up their sleeve and a VERY good reason

Could be, but still don´t think MBE is really a necessity for a follow-up (does he show in any other end?, or is Peralez/Gary the prophet quest a requirement for any end?,I didn´t try all possible combination of side contents and endings) and is more a reference to Armitage in Neuromancer.

 

[AikoHayashi]

I know, I know that V is driving in the cockpit and that V and Johnny reached a high affinity (is because you like him or because he's been overwriting V ?, to reach that affinity you need to think/act more and more as Johnny).
But still feels like V is unable to take a decision on his/her own. You are put on that balcony to take a decision, you get two pills (not very subtle reference to a well known movie with a very well known actor) and a gun and you still you cannot decide to be yourself.

Well, here I guess that is the main difference "reading" the sun. You would agree for a suicide mission if you are already dead and want to be remembered for ages.

Could be, but still don´t think MBE is really a necessity for a follow-up (does he show in any other end?, or is Peralez/Gary the prophet quest a requirement for any end?,I didn´t try all possible combination of side contents and endings) and is more a reference to Armitage in Neuromancer.

Exactly Armitage sends Case to a clinic where revolutionary technology is used to correct Case's neural damage (if we follow the logic that MBE references to Armitage).

 

[nadsh]

I know, I know that V is driving in the cockpit and that V and Johnny reached a high affinity (is because you like him or because he's been overwriting V ?, to reach that affinity you need to think/act more and more as Johnny).

You just need to select the right dialogue combination in the graveyard to unlock the secret ending, Johnny's approval can remain as low as 40%. Those lines don't even necessarily support his ideology.

Guess that also feels different depending on how you play V, I picked the most aggressive/self centered lines many times and my V's attitude didn't feel that much different to Johnny's. The way he acted in the Afterlife while in V's body wasn't that far off from how my V got into unnecessary fights (like taunting the Tyger Claws in River's mission). If you play a kinder or more calculated V it can definitely feel like they're being influenced by Johnny though.

 

[meowsess]

I can agree with that, but in this case the first part of the sentence is more significant for how I personally read into it. They say they have nothing to gain, which wouldn't be something they will say if it was must win it situation I feel.

How do you interpret this conversation:

Mr. Blue Eyes: "You know why I hired you? Because you'd do anything at all for even the faintest chance at survival. Even if it meant coming to within hair's breath of your untimely death."
V: "(....) Don't forget your side of the bargain."
Mr. Blue Eyes: "Oh, I never forget a promise."

And how does it fit into your interpretation that V is giving up and is doing this mission in order to commit flashy suicide? Because you never really replied to my comment on that other thread where I mentioned it, so I'm genuinely curious and trying to understand.

I think the "something to gain" remark is only half of the sentence and a bridge to the punchline. The full point of it is: "Times when I had something to gain are long gone. Now... now I got nothing to lose." The emphasis is on the "nothing to lose". Like it was already pointed out, any dictionary will basically tell you that it means "it is worth taking a risk because you cannot make your situation any worse". There's one particular definition that even says: "to be in a situation that could improve by doing something and that will not be any worse if you fail at it".

I just find it interesting that people interpreted this ending as a second suicide ending, when there's so many hints in dialogue towards the opposite. Not trying to say your interpretation is wrong, just trying to understand it, I guess.

 

[Deathlyhearts]

How do you interpret this conversation:

Mr. Blue Eyes: "You know why I hired you? Because you'd do anything at all for even the faintest chance at survival. Even if it meant coming to within hair's breath of your untimely death."
V: "(....) Don't forget your side of the bargain."
Mr. Blue Eyes: "Oh, I never forget a promise."

And how does it fit into your interpretation that V is giving up and is doing this mission in order to commit flashy suicide? Because you never really replied to my comment on that other thread where I mentioned it, so I'm genuinely curious and trying to understand.

I think the "something to gain" remark is only half of the sentence and a bridge to the punchline. The full point of it is: "Times when I had something to gain are long gone. Now... now I got nothing to lose." The emphasis is on the "nothing to lose". Like it was already pointed out, any dictionary will basically tell you that it means "it is worth taking a risk because you cannot make your situation any worse". There's one particular definition that even says: "to be in a situation that could improve by doing something and that will not be any worse if you fail at it".

I just find it interesting that people interpreted this ending as a second suicide ending, when there's so many hints in dialogue towards the opposite. Not trying to say your interpretation is wrong, just trying to understand it, I guess.

Yes I didn't replied back in that other topic, because it wasn't about the Endings to begin with and it was going off topic pretty fast, so I decided to refrain from doing so there.

As for the rest, like I said that's how I personally read into the whole ending. The reference to Icarus just seems too strong for me to ignore. I never said my interpratation was 100% correct and I may have read wrong into the meaning of the 'nothing to lose' piece of dialogue. I only really played through it once and never did again, so may have missed hints and details that pointed towards the opposite.

The 'Don't forget your side of the bargain' bit seems a bit like a strawman argument to me however tbh. The truth is we really don't know what sort of bargain they did. It could be about a lot of things, attempting to find a cure included, yes, but it's not confirmed in any way that their deal is about that.

Also V having full confidence/or not (depending how one looks at it) that they will succeed doesn't 100% mean they will. in the end it could indeed turn out that they will burn out bright one last time, as Mr Blue himselfs puts it. And the way the whole thing was presented the chances of it failing are much higher then at success.

So in end I guess it really does have enough hints and clues here and there to make both interpretations feasible, I believe.

 

[Guest 4412420]

The 'Don't forget your side of the bargain' bit seems a bit like a strawman argument to me however tbh. The truth is we really don't know what sort of bargain they did. It could be about a lot of things, attempting to find a cure included, yes, but it's not confirmed in any way that their deal is about that.

There's little else V could want though. They're loaded with eddies and dying so monetary or any other material reward is pretty useless at this point, and they're already a legend but that line implies that there's something Mr. Blue Eyes needs to do in return.

It would be really strange and pretty insulting to give an option for players to let V live out 6 months only to kill them off screen.

 

[Deathlyhearts]

There's little else V could want though. They're loaded with eddies and dying so monetary or any other material reward is pretty pointless at this point, they're already a legend and their status as one could be further cemented by the Crystal Palace heist but it would happen regardless if they survive or not.

That's true I guess I didn't look at it from that point. You make a good case there.

It just seems really strange and frankly insulting to give an option for players to let V live out 6 months only to kill them off screen.

I wouldn't really go, as far, as to call it insulting. Going out in the Blaze of glory was big narrative throughout the game to the whole becoming a legend side of the story and this ending is literally the only one that sticks completely to that narrative. In every other endings V gives up on that in one way or another.

Also the screenshot below shows a shard you can only find during the Nomad ending where you leave night city, which -very- strongly hints to this being the only ending where V lives past this predicted 6 months and I don't think it's been placed precisely there by accident.

I might be wrong though of course.

 

[Didacgomez]

Exactly Armitage sends Case to a clinic where revolutionary technology is used to correct Case's neural damage (if we follow the logic that MBE references to Armitage).

I know, is why I don´t rule out MBE at all (although the other reference to Gibson,the "Vodoo Boys" basically you can blow them out and are irrelevant)...
It can make sense using MBE for a cure, but then you will probably be double-crossed again (as Armitage did to Case) -which I'm completely in for a 33% more betrayal and double-crossing, not sure everybody is in the same page-

Still I don´t think he appears in any other ending, and references to brain manipulation are completely optional content which might need a lot of writing if they want to merge endings at the end (even if doing just sun not everybody would have follow that). The whole MBE = cure, makes sense only with Peralez/Dorsett/The prophet; that I'm not sure is a requirement for the sun epilogue or that it changes at all that epilogue doing that content or not (I did it when I run that ending, but don´t know if not doing the optional stuff blocks or changes MBE/sun).

You just need to select the right dialogue combination in the graveyard to unlock the secret ending, Johnny's approval can remain as low as 40%. Those lines don't even necessarily support his ideology.

Guess that also feels different depending on how you play V, I picked the most aggressive/self centered lines many times and my V's attitude didn't feel that much different to Johnny's. The way he acted in the Afterlife while in V's body wasn't that far off from how my V got into unnecessary fights (like taunting the Tyger Claws in River's mission). If you play a kinder or more calculated V it can definitely feel like they're being influenced by Johnny though.

Thought that it was needed a higher requirement of affinity-I was at 70% or so-, then forget it. Still, I think that the feeling of being manipulated once more is there in the terrace (completely personal feeling).

Mr. Blue Eyes: "You know why I hired you? Because you'd do anything at all for even the faintest chance at survival. Even if it meant coming to within hair's breath of your untimely death."
V: "(....) Don't forget your side of the bargain."
Mr. Blue Eyes: "Oh, I never forget a promise."

I interpret that he hired V, because he already demonstrated to be a merc that survives against all odds and he can get out alive of the worst hell (Crystal Palace is like the 2nd most secure place in the solar system, 1st looks like that Martian Militech colony for the rich). "Don´t forget your side of the bargain" can be either the cure (mostly accepted theory it seems) or that an incredibly difficult enterprise demands an incredibly high reward, its V reminding MBE that he doesn´t work for free.

 

[rippercityransom]

I wouldn't really go, as far, as to call it insulting. Going out in the Blaze of glory was big narrative throughout the game to the whole becoming a legend side of the story and this ending is literally the only one that sticks completely to that narrative. In every other endings V gives up on that in one way or another.

Also the screenshot below shows a shard you can only find during the Nomad ending where you leave night city, which -very- strongly hints to this being the only ending where V lives past this predicted 6 months and I don't think it's been placed precisely there by accident.

If this is true, then it would definitely be insulting to the Vs that had male love interests. The only ending you live is the one where you get broken up with?

I can see how you're reading it, and it matches up with the glory/quiet life theme they tried to pitch earlier in the game before Johnny starts wrecking your brain. It would just be in really poor taste to lock the only "V lives!" ending to the female LIs, or at least more in poor taste than it already is, where it's at least ambiguous what comes next.

 

[Deathlyhearts]

If this is true, then it would definitely be insulting to the Vs that had male love interests. The only ending you live is the one where you get broken up with?

I can see how you're reading it, and it matches up with the glory/quiet life theme they tried to pitch earlier in the game before Johnny starts wrecking your brain. It would just be in really poor taste to lock the only "V lives!" ending to the female LIs, or at least more in poor taste than it already is, where it's at least ambiguous what comes next.

That's true I can agree with that., looking it from that point of view. But in reality whatever they do it will most likely end up being disappointing to -someone- in -some- way. For instance the Sun ending ends up with the female love interests breaking up with V and that's disappointing and probably insulting to others. They really can't please everyone with everything, while sticking to their own artistic vision.

 

[seracy]

That's true I guess I didn't look at it from that point. You make a good case there.

I wouldn't really go, as far, as to call it insulting. Going out in the Blaze of glory was big narrative throughout the game to the whole becoming a legend side of the story and this ending is literally the only one that sticks completely to that narrative. In every other endings V gives up on that in one way or another.

Also the screenshot below shows a shard you can only find during the Nomad ending where you leave night city, which -very- strongly hints to this being the only ending where V lives past this predicted 6 months and I don't think it's been placed precisely there by accident.

I might be wrong though of course.

The shard is Achilles speaking, who tries to choose 'the quiet life'. But as we all know, he does not fully escape and is pulled back (for revenge in his case), which leads to his death.

What I mean to say is, there is a very high chance that any post-ending content will pull all Vs back into NC and there wouldn't be any benefit to ending some V endings (like the Sun). The TTRPGs are all based in NC and my assumption is the games will also be based in NC.

If we put ourselves in the shoes of the writers, it's fairly clear that MBE is offering survival in exchange for the heist.

Whether he actually intends to hold up his end is very up to interpretation. For all we know, V is thrown into space with Arasaka equipment as bait for another false flag with no chance of ever completing this heist. But that's going much further with assumptions that what is conveyed in dialogue.

 

[meowsess]

The 'Don't forget your side of the bargain' bit seems a bit like a strawman argument to me however tbh. The truth is we really don't know what sort of bargain they did. It could be about a lot of things, attempting to find a cure included, yes, but it's not confirmed in any way that their deal is about that.

What about the piece of dialogue that comes before that and connects to the bargain and promise lines?
"You know why I hired you? Because you'd do anything at all for even the faintest chance at survival. Even if it meant coming to within hair's breath of your untimely death." That last part is most likely talking about the mission, so it's clear (to me) the mission is somewhat connected to V's survival.

The whole ending is rather ambiguous, it's true, but dialogue like this is hard to ignore when there's nothing vague about "you'd do anything to survive and that's why I hired you", followed by bargains and promises. It's clear he is using her desire to save herself in order to get her to do an impossible mission that no one ever pulled off before. She's likely to pull it off (hence why MBE hired her) because she wants to live more than anything else, which means either he has a way to cure her (or some info at least) or the cure lies within the Crystal Palace, but since there's the "bargain" and "promise" lines, I'm more inclined to believe this job is just a way to get that info/cure from Blue Eyes - the only payment that matters to a V that is desperate to survive. I don't know, I feel like if we put 2 and 2 together, it's not THAT vague, but maybe that's just me.

 

[Guest 4412420]

I wouldn't really go, as far, as to call it insulting. Going out in the Blaze of glory was big narrative throughout the game to the whole becoming a legend side of the story and this ending is literally the only one that sticks completely to that narrative. In every other endings V gives up on that in one way or another.

If V would get killed off-screen then it would feel insulting because V is our character and we wouldn't be allowed to see their last moments. I didn't pick this ending because I wanted my V to be a legend, and I'm not the only one. V has other reasons to want to stay in NC: they actually like living in the city, they don't care for the nomad lifestyle, they have people they care about living there.

They really can't please everyone with everything, while sticking to their own artistic vision.

Seems that they can because there is a hopeful ending for people who romanced Judy and Panam but people who choose Kerry and River get either breakup or depression. They could have easily made the Sun ending a little optimistic, but now all we have is a couple of straws to cling to so the situation wouldn't feel even more unfair because we didn't pick Judy or Panam.

 

[rippercityransom]

They really can't please everyone with everything, while sticking to their own artistic vision.

Ehhh, I would love to give them the "artistic vision" pass, but I think there's a difference between a creative choice and punishing players for playing a gay man or a straight woman. There's no meaning it adds to the game, no over-arching theme that plays out. What would the vision be, if they only had those specific types of V without a happy-ish ending?