What if the Heist Worked?

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Whoa I missed that email. Do you happen to remember where it was in the heist? Maybe they specifically wanted Johnny's engram for the same reason Brigitte did - they knew about Alt?

It also says that it was Hellman who was responsible for Johnny's engram being on the chip if I remember correctly.
 
Yeah and Hellman was the one who done it, judging from the wording.

that makes sense, at yorinobu's command, but hellman was against the whole thing, and told saburo. He apparently dislikes silverhand.

Which is weird, because he wanted to know where you got the chip, and wasn't happy to find out silverhand was on it. Were there other chips? who else did he think might be on the chip? Or was he just trying to seem ignorant at the hotel
 
that makes sense, at yorinobu's command, but hellman was against the whole thing, and told saburo. He apparently dislikes silverhand.

Which is weird, because he wanted to know where you got the chip, and wasn't happy to find out silverhand was on it. Were there other chips? who else did he think might be on the chip? Or was he just trying to seem ignorant at the hotel

I think he was playing V, or trying to, because if he showed all his cards he would have painted an even bigger target on his back, but it's a fair point and it's only speculation on my part.

Either that or he didn't know but was aware of Yorinobu's intention.

Also raises another point though, maybe Yorinobu had Silverhand on the engram as an insult as well towards Saburo.
 
I think he was playing V, or trying to, because if he showed all his cards he would have painted an even bigger target on his back, but it's a fair point and it's only speculation on my part.

Either that or he didn't know but was aware of Yorinobu's intention.

Also raises another point though, maybe Yorinobu had Silverhand on the engram as an insult as well towards Saburo.

he seems to have respected silverhand's success, Maybe he figured silverhand returning could work against Arasaka, maybe it was a snub.

It seems Arasaka actually did consider silverhand an enemy, though he forgot about him. Maybe yorinobu figured it would piss him off to no end. Why did he think Hellman wouldn't reveal it though? Maybe he was planning to abandon the company again with whatever he got from netwatch.
 
i dont think evelyn planned to sell the chip to the VDBs
more likely a corp like kang tao
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i agree that there is great attention to detail when it comes to story and characters in this game.
nice watch
thanks for sharing the video
 
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Found an interesting video on youtube on the topic of where would story go and what would have happened with the characters had the heist went a planned:


I thought it was a good watch, so why not share it.
This video is obviously made with best intentions and is indeed quite quality content - but unfortunately, it's dead wrong in its main points.

1st, it can be deducted with practical certainty that Arasaka would catch Dexter no matter what. This is because Yorinobu needs both Dexter and V dead, as they know they did not kill Saburo - and Yorinobu, the murderer, needs no such witnesses alive. The deduction itself - is here.

2nd and most importantly, Evelyn never ever planned to sell the relic to vodoo boys. There is a computer in the game which contains email exchange between Evelyn and Netwatch, in which Evelyn sets the terms for the deal of selling relic to Netwatch. And when Netwatch agent asks who's "behind" the deal, who's the mastermind - Evelyn replies that she is the one.

This entirely invalidates central arguments of this video: certainly Netwatch has more than enough eddies to pay millions to Evelyn for the chip. It's one of oldest existing UN agencies on the planet by 2077, serving both UK and US citizenry, policing largest networks on the planet, etc.

Further, in fact, it is not the Relic (chip, "hardware") that Netwatch is after. Rather, it is Johnny's construct which Netwatch seeks to get. Yorinobu himself was also planning to sell it to Netwatch, which we learn from emails in a computer in Yorinobu's suite (easy to miss, by the way). And it is there we learn Netwatch wants Johnny - not the chip's hardware.

Furthermore, iirc, Evelyn tells V in some dialog that she only cares about what's on the chip - the technology itself is not valuable, rather contents of the relic is.

So the question then is - what, exactly, Netwatch needs Johnny for?

The answer - is in this screenshot i recently made:

_story_-_Alt_built_Ghost-City_for_Kang_Tao_while_Netwatch_was_looking_for_Alt_in_Crystal_Palace.jpg


Explanation: from this here screenshot, we learn that NetWatch hunted Alt for a long time. We learn Alt built Ghost City for Kang Tao. This is why Netwatch wants Johnny's construct and is ready to pay millions for it: with Johnny's engram at hand, NetWatch hopes to lure out one of its most dangerous enemies - an AI known as Alt - and neuter it. Knowing what we do about Alt's abilities from the events in the game, plus given this here evidence of NetWatch's inability to neutralize Alt for a long time, it is no doubt Evelyn would get paid millions by NetWatch - should the heist go smooth and she's be able to do the deal with Netwatch.

And we also learn Alt was able to infiltrate even orbital stations - Crystal Palace is one, and why NetWatch would be looking for Alt there unless Alt was, at some point, doing something in Crystal Palace? They would not. This means Alt travelled back and forth through the Black Wall for Alt's own needs and ends, repeatedly, and penetrated even most protected places there are (like Crystal Palace).

Sidenote: yep, Alt was unable to get into Mikoshi in particular, but we know why: Alt herself explains to V at some point that in Mikoshi, Arasaka has special thick ICE designed exactly to recapture Alt, and Alt refuses to have any risk to ever be again contained within Mikoshi. She had enough the 1st time. So in a way, it's actually one rather human reason - one may even call it "fear", - which makes Alt unable to penetrate into Mikoshi while Alt's able to get into most other places around.

But it ain't even the most interesting part in it all, too.

Kang Tao is chinese corporation. Alt clearly cooperated in the past with it against UK-based corporation - NetWatch. This is geopolitics. This is good old East-West confrontation. And should V's heist go smooth, the balance could well be tipped westwards. Perhaps _this_ is the true reason Saburo is so mad at Yorunobu about the relic, eh? After all, Saburo's true goals and interests, by 2077, are extremely likely to be geopolitical indeed, at least as much as we learn from his diary and few other available in-game sources.

Should NetWatch get the relic (with Johnny's engram on it), chances are they'd manage to capture Alt (or at least, a _copy_ of Alt). Then, they'd be able to learn how Alt manages to get back and forth through the Black Wall. And since Alt - per above screenshot - is helping NetWatch's rivals (and non-westerners overall, like Kang Tao from China, like some serious entities in Korea, where "Ghost City" is known to be), - it's likely NetWatch would be able to at least patch up the Black Wall in ways making it impossible for Alt to penetrate it.

Thus, ultimately, concluding V's heist successfully - would ultimately lead to further empowering of western megacorps and further exploitation and enrichment for said megacorps, which of course also means even more suffering and exploitation of the public in Night City and in most other places still running any semblance of western type of a civilization in Cyberpunk world.

It's good the heist failed. ;)
 
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Some of the questions here are really difficult to answer and I'm struggling a bit with them too.

Why is Johnny's engram on the relic? I think I have a good theory as to why Arasaka kept Johnny's engram in the first place, but not how he came to be on the relic. Its likely they kept him for intelligence extraction at the end of the 4th corporate war. Since the nuclear attack on Arasaka Tower was a Militech black op, they were hoping to find something that ties Johnny to Militech in order to justify a retaliatory strike, which would either extend the 4th corporate war or start a 5th one. But I don't think Johnny knew shit based on his recollection of the events in the game.

It also makes sense that he would never knowingly work for Militech in one of their black ops. Militech likewise is happy for Johnny to take the blame for the domestic terror attack. They create a pretext to expel Arasaka from the continental US and start an asset grab under the guise of national security. We know that Militech were temporarily re-nationalized by the US government at that time.

Megacorps are well resourced enough that they can contract out wetwork and leave no traces - no money trails, no recorded communications, nothing that leads back to the corp. This also explains why Johnny doesn't remember anything about Morgan Blackhand, given that he created Johnny's "distraction team" and is a de facto Militech employee. Its probable Johnny didn't even know he was involved either. I think Johnny was a useful pawn in a megacorp power play he didn't understand, but Arasaka didn't know that.

So they tried to get actionable intelligence out of him at the end of the 4th corporate, don't find anything, shelved him indefinitely, then forget about him. So who takes him out of the archives to put him on the relic? Was it Helman? Maybe I missed something but it doesnt make sense. The second protype was a personal project of Saburo's and was intended for him. The only thing I can come up with by way of explanation is the second prototype was going to go into a trial phase where they use it on a guinea pig. And Saburo would talk to the guinea pig and would know the trial had been successful if he recognised the mind of an old adversary. But ultimately Johnny is inconsequential and I don't think Saburo ever thought of him as a real adversary, so it feels a bit thin.

Was it Yorinobu? He stole the relic but if he had planned to overwrite Saburo's mind with Johnny's engram, he wouldn't have strangled his father at Konpeki. Or if he did, he would have slotted the relic into his father's head, bringing back from the brink of death, made up with the family and rejoined the fold. Then he would have watched as the iconic head of Arasaka corp slowly started getting real funky anti corpo ideas and some killer guitar licks...

So if Yorinobu stole the relic, why would he sell it to Netwatch? Netwatch is like a neutral organisation funded by megacorps, so while they have megacorp infosec as their mandate (broadly speaking), I don't think they would want to be involved with inter corp conflict. Thats not their purpose and they have nothing to gain by inserting themselves in the middle of it.

How does Brigitte know that Johnny's engram is on the relic? Don't know. She needs it to break through the blackwall but again, we come back to the frustrating question of who put Johnny on the relic? VBDs are some of the most highly skilled runners around so its possible they stole this intel? Maybe? That would mean Brigitte orchestrated the heist though right?
I'll answer some of the questions:
1) Yorinobu wanted to destroy Arasaka from within. He despised it and hated his father. He admitted that when you encounter him, if worked with Hanako.
2) Hanako used Yorinobu's body as the host for her father's engram. That's why she didn't want V to kill him.
3) The nukes were made by Militech, but Johnny never brings it up, but I doubt it's Militech's black op.
4) Arasaka and Militech were already clashing via proxies. There is a gig from Padre, when, if persuaded afterwards, he warns V of some big shit stirring up between the 2, and it's been happening for some time.
 

Patch 1.2 made it possible to get the datapad during The Heist.

If The Heist were to be successful (because T Bug cracked the ICE early), this is what happens:

1617630051875.png


Followed by

1617630088382.png
 

Patch 1.2 made it possible to get the datapad during The Heist.

If The Heist were to be successful (because T Bug cracked the ICE early), this is what happens:

View attachment 11206195

Followed by

View attachment 11206198
It was possible to get that datapad even in 1.12. It just took a bit of backtracking as follows:

- V and Jackie drop down when attacked by a police drone and break through a glass roof;

- right after V is back under our control, we do NOT go into the building; instead, using leg implant, we jump UP, climb back onto the roof we crashed through, then keep climbing back to Yorinobu's appartment, then take the stairs to the roof where the AV with the datapad was, and

- tadaa! The AV is gone but the datapad is merrily floating in the air. Take it, then go back down to where Jackie waits. Easy peasy jappanezy. ;)

Further, it's even possible to jump off the roof where AV was and survive _after_ going through the scene where Jackie gets wounded (prior to it, there is invisible insta-kill barrier several floors under the roof, but for some reason it gets removed after Jackie-gets-shot scene). Even in 1.2 which nerfed couple ways to do it, it should be _still_ doable in at least two other ways which allow to jump far enough to land into water (which is not fatal). And one would think this is quite reasonable: i mean, hey, why would we want to fight through an army of Arasaka goons all the way down to garage, if we can skip whole mobs entirely? Right?

Well problem is, it will be impossible to complete the quest if this "alternate escape" route is taken. Invisible barriers prevent one from reaching the garage. Dex is not in the motel. Even whole city is empty - no traffic, no pedestrians, no quests. Magic! :)
 
First of all, you had to wait for the AV to fly away after Jackie gets shot to get the datapad, and patch 1.2 obviously fixed that (before you could not interact with it at all even crouching to get inside the AV).

Those other ways prior to 1.2 involved exploiting game bugs in order to get back.

Also the devs did not intend V to be able to jump off Konpeki Plaza into the water, survive and get back to NC, hence the entire city becoming a ghost town, Dex not in the motel, etc.. Out of universe you will die if you fall off the top of a tall building and hit water. Just ask those guys who jumped off of the Golden Gate Bridge (which is about 20 stories above the water). Hitting water at terminal velocity (which is about 100 miles per hour) is as bad as hitting concrete at that speed. It is not survivable, even with cyberware. In fact you're much better off hitting land than water because at least if you somehow survived the fall, you wouldn't drown (now that you are in no condition to swim).

But the real answer if the heist had worked, Saburo hits the nuclear button and night city turns into glass. According to the datapad that's what would happen once he collected Yorinobu. The only reason he hadn't done it at that point was because he hoped he could recover it, and save from having to nuke NC. Had Yori not killed Saburo, and Saburo found out the Relic chip had been taken, he would have nuked NC.
 
Yes yes, i know jumping off is not intended. But you gotta agree, it has some sense. Mission Impossible and all, right? ;)

More importantly - it ain't as simple as you put it be about Saburo nuking NC.

1st, if T-Bug would hack it just a tad faster, V and Jackie would walk outta Konpeki's front door with a relic in its case, BUT, Yori would still kill Saburo, you know? Which is why NC would not be nuked.

2nd, even if by some unexpected turn of events Saburo survives (let's say, for example, Takemura bumped into some suspicious mark left by leaving V + Jackie, hurries back to Saburo and enters Yori's place just in time to save Saburo) - even then, it's a question if Saburo would nuke NC, or not. As per his diary:

"If I wanted to, i[sic] could wipe it off the map in under ten minutes. I shared this thought with Hanako - she thinks I shouldn't do that. I usually defer to her opinion. But if the Relic somehow fell into the wrong hands, maybe it would be better to bury it among the ashes of NC?
Until we talk to Y, I will hold off on a firm decision.
"

So, which part of "maybe" word looks like a certainty to you? To me, it doesn't. Saburo has his doubts there. And if Saburo anyhow survives the meeting with Yori, this means Yori is subdued and in fact under arrest by Saburo's forces. There's no imaginable way both walk away alive _and_ free of each other's grasp.

Then, if the Heist was a success, and Saburo lived - soon enough he discovers the relic is gone. So then he tortures Yori to figure out where's the relic. Yori obviously having no clue, Saburo then launches full scale Arasaka investigation, likely with the same result as we get in the game: Dex found and captured, V found, but THIS TIME, Takemura still works for Saburo and nobody is trying to eliminate Takemura; so V gets delivered to Saburo, interrogated if need be, the relic is then captured by Saburo, and fate of V aside - i see no reason whatsoever for Saburo to nuke Night City.

Thoughts?
 
Further, in fact, it is not the Relic (chip, "hardware") that Netwatch is after. Rather, it is Johnny's construct which Netwatch seeks to get. Yorinobu himself was also planning to sell it to Netwatch, which we learn from emails in a computer in Yorinobu's suite (easy to miss, by the way). And it is there we learn Netwatch wants Johnny - not the chip's hardware.
It's the opposite, NetWatch wants the chip, not Johnny. Ronald Cheever, the NetWatch rep in contact with Yorinobu, outright asks him "Why Silverhand, though?" in their email correspondence.
Furthermore, iirc, Evelyn tells V in some dialog that she only cares about what's on the chip - the technology itself is not valuable, rather contents of the relic is.

So the question then is - what, exactly, Netwatch needs Johnny for?

The answer - is in this screenshot i recently made:

View attachment 11204875

Explanation: from this here screenshot, we learn that NetWatch hunted Alt for a long time. We learn Alt built Ghost City for Kang Tao. This is why Netwatch wants Johnny's construct and is ready to pay millions for it: with Johnny's engram at hand, NetWatch hopes to lure out one of its most dangerous enemies - an AI known as Alt - and neuter it. Knowing what we do about Alt's abilities from the events in the game, plus given this here evidence of NetWatch's inability to neutralize Alt for a long time, it is no doubt Evelyn would get paid millions by NetWatch - should the heist go smooth and she's be able to do the deal with Netwatch.
NetWatch's MO is to never directly confront AIs if they can avoid it, they much prefer containment over conflict. So "baiting out" Alt makes little sense.
 
I'm suprised nobody has mentioned this if they have i apologise.
I think the main reason yorinobu want to get the chip to netwatch is to protect himself in the devil ending Saburo takes over yorinobu's body using the relic to gain eternal life. The reason Silverhand is on the chip is for the access to Alt.
i think the whole thing is engineered from the very beginning by the so called rogue Ai's to enable them to upload themselves into organic bodies a bit like the mysterious mr blue eyes .
 
It's the opposite, NetWatch wants the chip, not Johnny. Ronald Cheever, the NetWatch rep in contact with Yorinobu, outright asks him "Why Silverhand, though?" in their email correspondence.

NetWatch's MO is to never directly confront AIs if they can avoid it, they much prefer containment over conflict. So "baiting out" Alt makes little sense.
Either Ronald is not informed about true goal of this NetWatch operation, or plays Yorinobu.

NetWatch wants the chip tech, which is relic 2.0 - for what purpose? Re-selling it to highest bidder? Come on, not NetWatch's style. Creating their own Mikoshi 2.0 based on this Relic 2.0? Can see no signs this - or something alike - is what NetWatch is after.

Instead, i see this: NetWatch can't contain Alt A.I. It ain't just that sreenshot i made, it's also how easy and quick Alt sets up that BBS for V to contact Alt, and the place remains secure and functional - we have V using it much later to contact V, and it works like a charm from none other than Aldecaldos' camp, in the corresponding ending.

Means, "preferable" option - is not available for NetWatch. They keep failing keeping Alt at bay. Not only Alt is able to go through Black Wall whenever Alt desires to do things in Ghost City and in that orbital station - Alt also is able to go through, converse with V / Johnny, do things like that BBs, and none of this NetWatch is even able to detect happening!

That's why NetWatch wants to capture / control Alt, i think. It's a threat to NetWatch, and it's a big and long-standing one. Possibly the largest thorn in NetWatch's side for decades.


Now let's try to connect some more dots. In Pacifica, them vodoo boys were playing their netrunner games for great many years. And yet, NetWatch did not bother to go in, set up a field operation under heavy cover by completely unofficial muscle (animals) and capture vodoo boys' leaders. But they do it in 2077 - very shortly after the deal which NetWatch was trying to arrange with Yorinobu, and also with Evelyn - has failed to happen.

You think this is coincedence? I don't.

So what's the goal for NetWatch holding Brigitte "digital hostage"? NetWatch agent is quite doding explaining that part, if memory serves. Supposedly, Netwatch tried to gain control over Vodoo Boys network - that's what (rather dumb, mind you) Placide thinks. Thing is, NetWatch could do this years prior, or much after. Me, i think NetWatch has plenty access to Vodoo Boys networks for many years already, they just preferred to keep 'em Vodoo Boys doing their thing as it doesn't any much hurt NetWatch itself (nor any other big players any much).

And if so, then NetWatch could well know it's likely Vodoo Boys who are actually the "negotiating side" behind Evelyn's offer. Thus the corresponding question from NetWatch agent to Evelyn in their email exchange - about "who mastermind is".

This is how once relic slips outta their grasp, NetWatch set up a trap on vodoo turf, expecting some 3rd party to contact Brigitte about the relic. They get V trying to free Brigitte, and depending on player's actions, NetWatch either gets to plug into V and have their agent to walk away with all the data collected, or fail to get V connected to NetWatch systems and lose the agent (fried by vodoo boys). To this day, i suspect this is one of most important choices we do in the game, story-wise.


Next, let's try to connect another pair of dots.

Dot #1: per wiki, "In 2077, Yorinobu saw an opportunity and stole the Relic prototype from one of his father's laboratories in Tokyo.[7] After retreating to Night City in a plan to sell the prototype to Netwatch, he was warned by Anders Hellman that he should consult his father". We hear the conversation with Hellman right in the BD Evelyn captured.

Dot #2: we know vodoo boys knew that it's exactly Johnny's engram which is on the relic even before they hired Evelyn to make the BD of Yorinobu's place, and they knew Yorinobu is the guy who has Johnny's engram on that relic.

Now, i don't think Yorinobu, during his passage from Tokyo to Night City with the Relic 2.0 in hand (ok, ok, in a case :D ) - would merrily inform every bystander: "hey folks i have one Johnny Silverhand engram right here! Wanna buy?" ;)

So, _how_ vodoo boys learned about it?

In my opinion, vodoo boys' netrunning skills and equipment are fun insufficient to penetrate Arasaka corporate defenses. Means, vodoo boys couldn't just "discover" about Johnny's engram by their own intel. And since nobody else tries to snatch the relic from under Yorinobu's nose, it's quite likely that only vodoo boys knew about it (and thus hired Evelyn to BD the place, who then hires V and Jackie to klep the thing).

This means, some entity did all of the following:

- find out about Relic 2.0 existance (which was highly guarded secret internal project in Arasaka, under Saburo's personal supervision);

- find out Yorinobu stole the thing;

- inform vodoo boys about it.

Who, or what, this entity may be?

Perhaps one useful hint - is what Brigitte explains to V about why they want to contact Alt: when black wall falls and rogue A.I.s flood in, vodoo boys want to be on the right side. I assume this means "winning" side, and i assume vodoo boys count on A.I.s winning it. Further, this quite sounds like a deal, to me. A deal of this kind: "hey vodoo boys, you get me Alt, and i make sure rogue A.I.s will see vodoo boys as allies once the Black Wall falls".

And while i having but by gut's feeling - this sounds AWFUL LOT like what NetWatch would do. Exactly the kind of slippery rotten false "deal" they'd manage to have vodoo boys to believe in. Especially since NetWatch clearly wants the relic with Johnny Silverhand - we can discuss what exactly for, but it's clear they do want it, and they want it bad.


Oh, and aside from all the above - thank you a BIG time for finding something which seems to contradict my theory. Please, give me more of the sort if there is any. Much grateful for this - it helps!
 
I mentioned this in another thread, but it fits here as well. Id like to see a mod that allows the Heist to succeed, but you can either sell it to Netwatch, bypassing all of the Johnny questlines, basically making the game an open sandbox, or Judy can install it into a BD wreath, and you can access Johnny without having it affect you personally, allowing you to complete the Johnny quests.
 
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