Johnny + V relationship is poorly written [Spoilers]

[Radiant_Dawn]

I'm done with my 100% walkthrough now, and there are a lot of things to discuss -- but the main one is the Johnny and V relationship line. While I liked the overall impression, there is a list of inconsistencies I cannot solve for myself:
- Johnny and V become friends quickly and suddenly. Johnny poses a threat to V at the beginning, and continues to be a dickhead further in the storyline, but at the one moment you get a bunch of friendly dialogue options. Furthermore, some of them are mandatory for the secret ending, while there was no space to actually change your mind.
- Oil Fields dialogue is a pure design failure. The only right dialogue to get to the secret ending is very unobvious, leaves no space to get to it on your own and is not supported by the story. There were no events which could change your mind towards becoming friendly to him, and "The guy who saved my life" option has absolutely no background, since Johnny didn't save your life before.

While being touching and well-written itself, this dialogue doesn't fit into the story.

- After choosing to return to their body, V says that they had a different deal with Johnny and V is sorry. It definitely wasn't mentioned before, since the actual deal was to separate V from Johnny and reimplant V back.
- You cannot be mean towards Johnny from the very beginning, while having reasons for -- or you'll loose your chances for the secret ending. This issue is tied with the one mentioned before ("friends because of nothing").

IMO it would be infinitely better to give Johnny and V a chance to become friends, and add story events related to them getting into troubles and dealing with them -- together or on their own.

These are the major story issues I want to point to; I have no will to criticize the rest of the story, which has no such flaws and is very soulful.

 

[JoshShaw]

It was so jarring for me because I shaded Johnny at every possible opportunity given, called him a dickhead, a narcissist, a douchebag...then he was asking if I'd take a bullet for him. Huh?? No, dude. It felt like we were SUPPOSED to be friends by then but with the dialogue choices given I'd resisted that at every turn. Still, his story is over by the end so at least it's not an issue going forward.

 

[Ayinde_Palmer]

I'm done with my 100% walkthrough now, and there are a lot of things to discuss -- but the main one is the Johnny and V relationship line. While I liked the overall impression, there is a list of inconsistencies I cannot solve for myself:
- Johnny and V become friends quickly and suddenly. Johnny poses a threat to V at the beginning, and continues to be a dickhead further in the storyline, but at the one moment you get a bunch of friendly dialogue options. Furthermore, some of them are mandatory for the secret ending, while there was no space to actually change your mind.
- Oil Fields dialogue is a pure design failure. The only right dialogue to get to the secret ending is very unobvious, leaves no space to get to it on your own and is not supported by the story. There were no events which could change your mind towards becoming friendly to him, and "The guy who saved my life" option has absolutely no background, since Johnny didn't save your life before.

While being touching and well-written itself, this dialogue doesn't fit into the story.

- After choosing to return to their body, V says that they had a different deal with Johnny and V is sorry. It definitely wasn't mentioned before, since the actual deal was to separate V from Johnny and reimplant V back.
- You cannot be mean towards Johnny from the very beginning, while having reasons for -- or you'll loose your chances for the secret ending. This issue is tied with the one mentioned before ("friends because of nothing").

IMO it would be infinitely better to give Johnny and V a chance to become friends, and add story events related to them getting into troubles and dealing with them -- together or on their own.

These are the major story issues I want to point to; I have no will to criticize the rest of the story, which has no such flaws and is very soulful.

Johnny saved V's life
1 by being the relic
2 numerous times V goes unconscious and, in a city like NC, there's a good chance of being stripped for parts if that happened.


the things you say in the situations you are referring to are based on previous conversations. And also how aligned you became with Johnny. The deal they had was V saying they'd take a bullet for Johnny, and Johnny saying they d do the same in the hotel. There's another version of this convo where the deal is specifically that V would get rid of Johnny first chance he gets.

the response is like, well you knew this was going to happen Johnny, and Johnny agrees.

The secret ending isn't an ending you are born deserving, its an ending like any other that requires you to do certain things in order to access it. You cant get panam's ending if you rat her out to Saul, you can't get rogue's ending if you refuse to let rogue meet Johnny. Takemura wont be in arasaka ending if you don't save him.

Also, Huh? Johnny and V have no reason to be friends? you literally have the dude around you non stop for 2-3 weeks. Share memories, feelings, get through life and death situations, And you did secret ending, so you met all his friends, helped him go on a date, get the band back together, straighten out his best friend, and defeat his enemies what other friend based story events could they have?

If you go with the Johnny friend path, there are tons of experiences that make the friendship make sense.

Post automatically merged: Apr 7, 2021

It was so jarring for me because I shaded Johnny at every possible opportunity given, called him a dickhead, a narcissist, a douchebag...then he was asking if I'd take a bullet for him. Huh?? No, dude. It felt like we were SUPPOSED to be friends by then but with the dialogue choices given I'd resisted that at every turn. Still, his story is over by the end so at least it's not an issue going forward.

he asked, and you said no. It was weird him saying that to me the first playthrough when I didnt trust him, but it was actually not him asking you to take a bullet, it was him leading up to the story of how someone took a bullet for him, and now he was going to pay it forward.

When you say no he still explains his thinking

 

[AlienSpaceBats]

I think for the Johnny/V relationship to work better there need to be a few more scripted interactions that set the tone, because you have slightly jarring encounters like the one at Tom's Diner where V is rather hostile, then 60 seconds later in Human Nature V is talking to Johnny like they're longtime buddies.

All this time playing since release day and I'm still not 100% on board with the Silverhand thing. Don't like the focus the character is given, is it his story, not V's? I keep getting the impression that he's the square peg in a round hole. You have this weird disconnect where the stakes are: gotta get rid of the engram/chip of I'll die, so you do just that and then die anyway, and in one ending it was apparently appropriate to give a dead man [or his likely impaired engram] a second chance at life in a stranger's body.

In the end I feel my V became friends with Johnny because the game forced me to. Sorry, Johnny, I wouldn't take a bullet for you, no.

 

[ChrissyVicious]

This whole game is poorly written..so many plot holes and silly dialog..

 

[Netrunner2go]

This whole game is poorly written..so many plot holes and silly dialog..

after playing around 6 month with jacky in heywood, completing the heist: "hey youngstar street kid v -my name is padre and i offer jobs in heywood u can take your hand on" - my street kid: ".... uhm..."

 

[Bloodartist]

It was so jarring for me because I shaded Johnny at every possible opportunity given, called him a dickhead, a narcissist, a douchebag...then he was asking if I'd take a bullet for him. Huh?? No, dude. It felt like we were SUPPOSED to be friends by then but with the dialogue choices given I'd resisted that at every turn. Still, his story is over by the end so at least it's not an issue going forward.

Everything in the story is ridiculously railroaded...

"Any customer can have a car painted any colour that he wants, so long as it is black."
- Henry Ford

 

[Radiant_Dawn]

Johnny saved V's life
1 by being the relic
2 numerous times V goes unconscious and, in a city like NC, there's a good chance of being stripped for parts if that happened.

1. Johnny is not a relic. Johnny is written on that relic. He couldn't save V from Dex's bullet, even if he wanted to.

He saved V's life, in some way. But very metaphorically, it wasn't obvious to me.

2. I know, but it seems far-fetched. Something more substantial is needed, considering the whole set of different things happening to V during the storyline.

The secret ending isn't an ending you are born deserving, its an ending like any other that requires you to do certain things in order to access it.

I know, but these actions seem random. If the aim was to reward the player for being friendly with Johnny, the game doesn't reward all the ways you can do that, and being friendly to Johnny from the very start isn't making real sense.

Also, Huh? Johnny and V have no reason to be friends? you literally have the dude around you non stop for 2-3 weeks.

To become friends with someone you need more than living together. Furthermore, the friendship begins abruptly -- like the tumbler switch.

The common feelings and memories are also a doubtful explanation -- it's not shown, how the Johnny's memories could change V's opinion. The previous flashback with Alt was another one where Johnny was a dick.

If you go with the Johnny friend path, there are tons of experiences that make the friendship make sense.

There's a causal mistake. You become friends with Johnny (by saying that on Oil Fields), and then his sidequest storyline starts, which can change the player's opinion.

Only at this moment Johnny realizes, that he's dead and that he wants to actually change something in his past and himself.

 

[Netrunner2go]

would be cool in a way if there would be a 2nd secret ending if you just blame him all the way and taking the pills whenever u have the chance to do so... like yin & yang - one for pro johnny and one for just stfu dude... but no... reward is just for getting along with him... : /

 

[Czembro]

So much this! I can't understand how people can say that CP77 have some kind of superb narrative, when it's pretty much written around forced and rushed relationship with Johnny. Maybe I am some cold-hearted bastard but at the end I felt very little sympathy for him, which rendered the whole experience a bit dull.

 

[rippercityransom]

I had the fun experience of going directly from him trying to force V to put a gun in her mouth and swearing he’d kill her to that mission where he hears the guy playing guitar and he’s like “Hey V, buddy pal friend. Listen to this guy isn’t that sweet? Let’s go find my old albums. ”

Major whiplash and also kinda spoiled the fact that you were eventually going to get along with him (despite the fact he tried to kill me ten minutes ago.)

 

[AikoHayashi]

I had the fun experience of going directly from him trying to force V to put a gun in her mouth and swearing he’d kill her to that mission where he hears the guy playing guitar and he’s like “Hey V, buddy pal friend. Listen to this guy isn’t that sweet? Let’s go find my old albums. ”

Major whiplash and also kinda spoiled the fact that you were eventually going to get along with him (despite the fact he tried to kill me ten minutes ago.)

This is the risk of throwing the player in the game with almost all quests available. I still prefer this way rather than making the quests available only when you do other quests first. In the first gameplay, I went to talk to Takemura first so then I heard that Johnny doesn't want me dead and then had few other quests where I hated him but we managed to become friends Ideally, it will be good to have scripts depending on previous interactions but this is hard to achieve.

 

[Ayinde_Palmer]

1. Johnny is not a relic. Johnny is written on that relic. He couldn't save V from Dex's bullet, even if he wanted to.

He saved V's life, in some way. But very metaphorically, it wasn't obvious to me.

2. I know, but it seems far-fetched. Something more substantial is needed, considering the whole set of different things happening to V during the storyline.

I know, but these actions seem random. If the aim was to reward the player for being friendly with Johnny, the game doesn't reward all the ways you can do that, and being friendly to Johnny from the very start isn't making real sense.

To become friends with someone you need more than living together. Furthermore, the friendship begins abruptly -- like the tumbler switch.

The common feelings and memories are also a doubtful explanation -- it's not shown, how the Johnny's memories could change V's opinion. The previous flashback with Alt was another one where Johnny was a dick.

There's a causal mistake. You become friends with Johnny (by saying that on Oil Fields), and then his sidequest storyline starts, which can change the player's opinion.

Only at this moment Johnny realizes, that he's dead and that he was to actually change something in his past and himself.

ultimately, if you don't jive well with Johnny, you aren't supposed to do his content. They leave it up to the player to do it or not. By the time you hit the oil fields, you have already been interacting with Johnny for the 3 paths, you have agreed to help him get revenge, you have been advising him about rogue, you have seen his memories. If at that point you don't like him, then ignore him. Thats what I did the first playthrough. Why would you agree to help him make peace with his life, and let him use your body, if you still think of him as enemy?

the gravesite part isn't supposed to be the pinnacle of your friendship, its supposed to be a turning point, where you go from uncertain to a more true friendship. This is why the optimal conversation path for johnny is one where you are half on his side, but half against him for his mistakes.

 

[Radiant_Dawn]

ultimately, if you don't jive well with Johnny, you aren't supposed to do his content

It's fine when you are mean to Johnny and he is mean to you till the end. But it's not fine when you decide to go his path -- both of you don't trust each other for a while and BOOM -- best friends 4ever. The story is missing some buildup for that.

 

[Ayinde_Palmer]

I think for the Johnny/V relationship to work better there need to be a few more scripted interactions that set the tone, because you have slightly jarring encounters like the one at Tom's Diner where V is rather hostile, then 60 seconds later in Human Nature V is talking to Johnny like they're longtime buddies.

All this time playing since release day and I'm still not 100% on board with the Silverhand thing. Don't like the focus the character is given, is it his story, not V's? I keep getting the impression that he's the square peg in a round hole. You have this weird disconnect where the stakes are: gotta get rid of the engram/chip of I'll die, so you do just that and then die anyway, and in one ending it was apparently appropriate to give a dead man [or his likely impaired engram] a second chance at life in a stranger's body.

In the end I feel my V became friends with Johnny because the game forced me to. Sorry, Johnny, I wouldn't take a bullet for you, no.

the game doesn't tell you to be besties with Johnny. The average players desire to do any content they see, regardless of their chosen character is why so many players engaged with Johnny, who didnt want to.

This game is different, they let the player choose what V is about and who they associate with. Its totally viable to have Johnny as an enemy for the whole game. And if you do that, the dialog in major scenes changes. V can be a complete ahole to Johnny in panam's ending. call him a parasite,etc. You chose the Johnny friend life.

 

[Radiant_Dawn]

the gravesite part isn't supposed to be the pinnacle of your friendship

It's not that important. What's really important is that Johnny starts to show his another sides only after you've already established your friendship.

My point is not that being friends with Johnny is mandatory. My point is that if you decide to side with him, that wouldn't be supported by the story.

 

[Netrunner2go]

It's fine when you are mean to Johnny and he is mean to you till the end. But it's not fine when you decide to go his path -- both of you don't trust each other for a while and BOOM -- best friends 4ever. The story is missing some buildup for that.

"take the other one he/she will like it" = Johnny + V 4ever <3 --- im still curious about this tattoo x'D

 

[Ayinde_Palmer]

It's not that important. What's really important is that Johnny starts to show his another sides only after you've already established your friendship.

My point is not that being friends with Johnny is mandatory. My point is that if you decide to side with him, that wouldn't be supported by the story.

My point is that your feeling on that is because of how you played with Johnny up until that point. How you choose to engage with him up until that point has different conversation trees, things you have done in the city have generated different side convos where you reveal yourself to one another. And there is also just differences in perspective from person to person. Some players like Johnny pretty early on. Some never like him. The game isn't linear, and how you play effects how things are perceived subtly.

However they generally will give the player the option to go against type at major junctures. This isn't just with Johnny, almost all major plotlines allow you to go against type. Your play experience was either one of those against type options so players are less easily locked out, or you just couldn't relate to the guy at all until after.

There are a lot of people who you will not get close to, until after some event. Johnny is this type, Thats why the convo is half good and half bad, you are not supposed to fully trust/like Johnny at the gravesite. All it requires is a little bit of empathy and to challenge him.

heres what happens for most players, you and Johnny have been frenemies, you agree to help him, he kinda goes super jerk mode with your body. You see this guy looking at his life, his tombstone in a forgotten pit, and you have a real conversation with him. You acknowledge he has helped you, but also that he is a jackass, and does things to screw even that up, He acknowledges this, and thats when things really change in the V/Johnny relationship.


Thats not really bad writing, its a non linear rpg that encompasses many choices on how to play the game for the player. The second time I played the game, my friend said Johnny was his boy and trustworthy, so I played it differently the second time, less skeptical, did more content in chapter two, and by the time the gravesite rolled around, I was actually felt more friendly with him than you are supposed to be(if your goal is secret ending, which requires you to dis him abit)

So I have been on both sides, thats why I can say it depends on how the player plays the game, and is not a writing flaw.

 

[IndifferentEmpathy]

The relationship with Johnny is so forced my immersion was broken minutes after junkyard scene.

So I have this very first confrontation with Johny in my appartment where he tries to take over, I sleep, go out, go in in to my car, Delamain cab rushes trough mine (guess I triggered the quest already), ruining it and then Johnny appears next to me in passenger seat and V starts friendly auto-dialogue with him?...

 

[LeKill3rFou]

The relationship with Johnny is so forced my immersion was broken minutes after junkyard scene.

So I have this very first confrontation with Johny in my appartment where he tries to take over, I sleep, go out, go in in to my car, Delamain cab rushes trough mine (guess I triggered the quest already), ruining it and then Johnny appears next to me in passenger seat and V starts friendly auto-dialogue with him?...

It's a problem to let the player do the quests when he decide.
If you directly go meet Goro and only after, do this quest, it doesn't appear to strange
(For that realy match, there should be too many dialogue line )