Which character do you dislike most?

[AikoHayashi]

Hey,
in character, I hate Woodman and Fingers and the whole damn Arasaka the most.
And out of it, probably no one. I think that all of the characters have a deep personality and are quite consistent and well written.

What seems to be the problem is the story being split, etc...so you somewhat can't get a more clean vision about the characters.

In general, I don't like how AIs are considered more than tools.
The relic contains a program, which behaves like a 50 years dead human. But the game sure acts as he was there, in flesh and full power...Same with Delamain, etc...

Also, I don't get why Judy is in the game (at such a scale)?
Especially when she should...hate V because of Evelynn...
I guess it somewhat makes sense in the end as she doesn't lose hope, but with Evelynn found dead and the idea for Clouds takeover, I guess I just don't get and buy any of that, at least in the scope shown in the game.
Throughout the game, she's like

You have the right to like or dislike whoever you want but I have 2 remarks:
- In the cyberpunk genre and sci-fi at all AIs are usually considered for more than "tools".
- Judy doesn't have a reason to hate V because of Evelyn. It wasn't V who organized the heist and it wasn't V who damaged Evelyn's behavioral chip.

 

[V-WalknTalknCorpse]

I see. Well in this case i think it's just that you are not aware about certain in-game things and lore, which makes you think what you think. Specifically:

1st, preparations Dex took were not "poor", which we know by the following facts:

- he spent his own cash, and in advance, to buy the drone (this gets confirmed by sellers of the drone itself when one particular dialog is experienced by V);

- he created a plan which, in fact, worked perfectly well, despite Yorinobu's quarters being one of most protected spaces in the whole Night City, which is nothing to sneeze at. This includes fake identities and papers for V and Jackie as well as corresponding Night City database entries;

- he spent his own cash to hire Delorean, at at its most expensive form, too (which includes combat mode which, naturally, saved V's life when Smasher tries to rip delorean apart).

In the whole game, no other fixer does as much. Nothing close to. Both main and side missions. For example, when V needs to get in touch with one certain maman Brigitte - local fixer just sends V to a local church to be contacted by an unknown person who will offer V some unknown job, for no reward other than to hopefully be able to talk to the woman.

2nd, yep, Dex is scared Arasaka will get him - but he's very much correct in doing so. He's so scared that if you'd have V not go to the bathroom, but stand in Dex's room a little bit - then you'd hear Dex making a phone call to get aboard a shuttle that same very day, to leave Earth entirely.

To understand why he's correct in such a big a fear, one would need to pay attention to some small dialogs throughout the game, and certain "historical" shards in the game - ones which tell the story of corporate wars of the past. From those, we learn that Arasaka, for decades, is a force comparable to whole US / Militech armed forces in miltary sense, and perhaps unrivalled global intelligence service of the time, on top (things like "you can't sneeze in Night City without some sakura pettles dropping in Tokyo"). Further, we also learn from corpo prologue that Arasaka is able, willing and indeed do mass killings even when victims are some diplomats.

This corp is a machine which kills its targets without any speck of pity, utter efficiency and deadly grasp. And at the helm of this corp for great many decades stood Soburo Arasaka - a man who writes in his diary how he could turn whole Night City to ashes in a matter of just few minutes, if that would be his wish; "but for now i decided not to do it". This is the caliber of Arasaka, you see - a nuclear private power.

Imagine yourself in Dex's place, with your enemy being US army guided by CIA and "forgetting" about any humanitarian laws, all in order to get back something very important which you stole from US president whom, they think, you also killed. This is nearly the same situation to what Dex found himself in.

As for killing V: V was an extra lead to Dex, which arasaka could well take. Dex had no way to know how much of V's identity / circumstances arasaka was able to figure out during and right after the heist. This is why Dex kills V - it's simply self-preservation. And we can clearly see Dex takes no enjoyment in it, too. As he himself says right before killing V: something along "seems like i chose small life and getting old, after all" line, with almost regret in his voice. It's just that he knows that taking V's life is much increasing the chances to save his own.

So yep, Dex is right to feel that huge fear. And perhaps the ultimate proof of his fears being appropriate - is his very fate, itself: despite all his efforts, he _is_ killed by an arasaka personnel: Takemura, at the time, operates under direct orders from his new boss, Arasaka CEO, Yorinobu Arasaka.

And last and not least, Dex himself explains in at least one particular line of V's last talk with Dex: there was no way to know Soburo Arasaka would visit Yorinobu's appartment. Nobody could prepare for that. Soburo's plans and schedule - as any big corp's CEO plans and schedule - is very closely and efficiently guarded secret. Dex is not to blame here - no fixer, no matter how good, could foresee that.

I don't think it was a coincidence. Someone knew, someone wanted that to happen.

Post automatically merged: Apr 8, 2021

Johnny.

Reason (spoilers): per Relic 2.0 documentation shard's in-game text (from Hellman), Relic 2.0 (which V has slotted in) can only activate construct transfer in the event of complete and _irreversible_ cease of any and all neural activity in the host body. I.e., the only way Johnny could even start taking over V's body - is if V's person would be entirely gone with no way to bring it back to life.

This means, with complete certainty, that V, as a person, is completely gone and dead shortly after Dex shoots V in the head. Certainly by the time construct 1st takes control of V's body motor functions - namely when Johnny (no more V!) repeatedly hits V's appartment wall with his forehead.

Consequently, it is all Johnny after that: he _imagines_ that V is alive, he pretends as if it's (by then actually gone) V's person who is controlling V's body (most of the time), he's having heavy case of split personality disorder (one person in his new 'ganic mind being "old Johnny", the other being "what Johnny thinks V would be"), and he's having hallucinations of his former self.

I.e., for most of the game, not only we play not as some mercenary (V), but as a ressurected terrorist, addict and murderer (Johnny) - he's also a psycho who thinks he's two people, while being just one.

"Bleh".

Idk about that. I think you are wrong. I think V becomes a human-AI hybrid, his human part being V, with a soul, and Johnny as an AI, engram. When Dex puts a bullet through V's head, the relic gets activated and the nannites quickly repair/replace the damaged part, only, there is no turning it off. The hybrid V still has his soul, but also is partly AI. You know what a complete engram like you described would be? A soulless, emotionless V, like the one you get after the Arasaka ending.

 

[Fins_FinsT]

...

Idk about that. I think you are wrong. I think V becomes a human-AI hybrid, his human part being V, with a soul, and Johnny as an AI, engram. When Dex puts a bullet through V's head, the relic gets activated and the nannites quickly repair/replace the damaged part, only, there is no turning it off. The hybrid V still has his soul, but also is partly AI. You know what a complete engram like you described would be? A soulless, emotionless V, like the one you get after the Arasaka ending.

Johnny is an engram, but he got emotions alright. It's obvious. Engram is a copy of a psyche, and psyche is not an AI. Any psyche has emotions. And there's nothing "A" - "artificial" - on the origin of any human psyche, including Johnny's. He's a copy of a person and this means he comes with complete set of his own stupid, wrong, ridiculous thoughts, ideas and beliefs (along with correct and proper ones) - like any person does. V as well, of course.

2nd, i am not wrong. Relic's description is crystal clear: the thing can't activate unless host body's soul ("neural activity") dies irreversibly. Irreversible means it can't be undone: once gone, remains gone.

There is one excellent "optional", "secret" dialog with couple buddhist monks sitting in one of big markets in the game, at some point, in which it's discussed in length what it means to be a "copy" of a person, even. Does Johnny's engram have a soul? Can this "copy of a person" reincarnate? Is he "alive"? Good stuff.

 

[V-WalknTalknCorpse]

Johnny is an engram, but he got emotions alright. It's obvious. Engram is a copy of a psyche, and psyche is not an AI. Any psyche has emotions. And there's nothing "A" - "artificial" - on the origin of any human psyche, including Johnny's. He's a copy of a person and this means he comes with complete set of his own stupid, wrong, ridiculous thoughts, ideas and beliefs (along with correct and proper ones) - like any person does. V as well, of course.

2nd, i am not wrong. Relic's description is crystal clear: the thing can't activate unless host body's soul ("neural activity") dies irreversibly. Irreversible means it can't be undone: once gone, remains gone.

There is one excellent "optional", "secret" dialog with couple buddhist monks sitting in one of big markets in the game, at some point, in which it's discussed in length what it means to be a "copy" of a person, even. Does Johnny's engram have a soul? Can this "copy of a person" reincarnate? Is he "alive"? Good stuff. I

I've met the monks. The relic is SUPPOSED to be like that, yes. But the guy who developed that said it was an experimental version of the chip, meaning, they have not perfected it enough to be certain about all of that, they were still doing tests and research. Hellman said he couldn't make head or tail of the situation. I think Arasaka perfected their research after getting V in the Arasaka ending, that's why it's the only ending where they used the relic 2.0 to stuff Saburo in Yorinobu's body.
Ugh, engrams do not have souls. Literally in the name SOULKILLER.
V is human, Johnny is not. Engrams will react according to their code.
Here is a good example for distinction,
I'm currently playing the Aldecado Ending, and when talking to Alt, she'll point out that you've come alone, and say that you treat Johnny like an unwanted passenger, and if you ask her if she'd rather talk to Johnny, she will tell you, and I quote, "Any conversation with an engram is pointless." And if you ask later about what will happen to the engrams trapped in Mikoshi when Alt takes over, she'll tell you they'll become part of her, and if you ask what about what the engrams would want.. she will again, remind you that it is pointless talking to them. I believe it's because Alt can just read them and know exactly how they would react in any situation, because code.
Copies of psyche? Yes. but engrams are still code. AI is code.

Quick qn to think about.
Does it make sense to you that Brendan is an AI and Johnny isn't?
In the Cyberpunk universe, there are several types of AI. Google Symbolic AI or symbolic analysis ai.

 

[Fins_FinsT]

I've met the monks. The relic is SUPPOSED to be like that, yes. But the guy who developed that said it was an experimental version of the chip, meaning, they have not perfected it enough to be certain about all of that, they were still doing tests and research. Hellman said he couldn't make head or tail of the situation. I think Arasaka perfected their research after getting V in the Arasaka ending, that's why it's the only ending where they used the relic 2.0 to stuff Saburo in Yorinobu's body.
Ugh, engrams do not have souls. Literally in the name SOULKILLER.
V is human, Johnny is not. Engrams will react according to their code.
Here is a good example for distinction,
I'm currently playing the Aldecado Ending, and when talking to Alt, she'll point out that you've come alone, and say that you treat Johnny like an unwanted passenger, and if you ask her if she'd rather talk to Johnny, she will tell you, and I quote, "Any conversation with an engram is pointless." And if you ask later about what will happen to the engrams trapped in Mikoshi when Alt takes over, she'll tell you they'll become part of her, and if you ask what about what the engrams would want.. she will again, remind you that it is pointless talking to them. I believe it's because Alt can just read them and know exactly how they would react in any situation, because code.
Copies of psyche? Yes. but engrams are still code. AI is code.

Quick qn to think about.
Does it make sense to you that Brendan is an AI and Johnny isn't?
In the Cyberpunk universe, there are several types of AI. Google Symbolic AI or symbolic analysis ai.

1st, Brendan is not an AI. If your V has sufficiently high Tech stat, you'll see through Brendan's true nature: V recognises that Brendan hardware is just way, way too weak to anyhow allow any AI process to actually happen on it, and tells about it to Brendan during the last quest in the chain. Basically, Brendan is a glorified calculator with smart routines designed to mimic (but not replicate) intelligence. In Mass Effect, this sort of systems is widely known as "VI" - virtual intelligence. Brendan is one such system.

2nd, yes, i am aware, mutliple AI types in lore. Some are even so far advanced and/or introverted it's practically impossible for a human to have any conversation with 'em. However, this whole argument we're having - is nothing else and nothing but the old "Ghost in the Shell" debate. Do andoids dream of electric sheep? You say they don't. I say they do. You say they don't have a soul. I say they do. And those two monks? They sorta dodge the question. As usual for their kind to do.

And here's "why". Yes, engrams are code. AI is code. Thing is, personally, i am plenty sure human psyche is _also_ code. Nothing else and nothing but than quite messy, biological origin, self-morphing code. This does not mean humans don't have a soul - they do. I can give you a definition of human soul if you're interested, even. And similarly, engrams also have a soul. The name of that program? Misleading. It only refers to the loss of biological "hardware" human psyche initially operates from, and this biological hardware has certain quirks which make human soul to manifest itself more. But when copied into a relic or into Mikoshi servers in orbit, humans who were "soulkilled" do not lose their soul, in my opinion - they only lose significant part of their ability to change their soul (though, i'd argue, they gain more in ability to express it to others beings).

And yep, i know the game disagrees with me here. Soulkiller is treated as if it does, indeed, kill one's soul - by game's lore. Oh well. Sucks to be me... %)

It all is one hell lengthy and coplicated stuff which this post barely scratches the surface of. If you're interested in more details, please tell.

 

[Milfguard2077]

I have to skip scenes with Fingers in them he grosses me out sooooooooooooooooooooooo much - I suppose Woodman is the worst of the worst but he doesnt skeeve me the way fingers does...

 

[lynxir]

I've met the monks. The relic is SUPPOSED to be like that, yes. But the guy who developed that said it was an experimental version of the chip, meaning, they have not perfected it enough to be certain about all of that, they were still doing tests and research. Hellman said he couldn't make head or tail of the situation. I think Arasaka perfected their research after getting V in the Arasaka ending, that's why it's the only ending where they used the relic 2.0 to stuff Saburo in Yorinobu's body.
Ugh, engrams do not have souls. Literally in the name SOULKILLER.
V is human, Johnny is not. Engrams will react according to their code.
Here is a good example for distinction,
I'm currently playing the Aldecado Ending, and when talking to Alt, she'll point out that you've come alone, and say that you treat Johnny like an unwanted passenger, and if you ask her if she'd rather talk to Johnny, she will tell you, and I quote, "Any conversation with an engram is pointless." And if you ask later about what will happen to the engrams trapped in Mikoshi when Alt takes over, she'll tell you they'll become part of her, and if you ask what about what the engrams would want.. she will again, remind you that it is pointless talking to them. I believe it's because Alt can just read them and know exactly how they would react in any situation, because code.
Copies of psyche? Yes. but engrams are still code. AI is code.

Quick qn to think about.
Does it make sense to you that Brendan is an AI and Johnny isn't?
In the Cyberpunk universe, there are several types of AI. Google Symbolic AI or symbolic analysis ai.

Well depends how you define soul. If a soul or psyche are the mental abilities of a living being like reason, character, feeling, consciousness, memory then Johnny has all of that. So does V even though they died several times over the course of events.

If I understand your arguments right then V is also "just code" in the end, because they get "soulkilled" by Alt in every ending where you meet her. When V sits down with Johnny they're basically two engrams talking to each other.

For me it's: soul = consciousness = engram unless you mix religion into it, but it definitely makes some interesting conversation material.

 

[Fins_FinsT]

Well depends how you define soul. If a soul or psyche are the mental abilities of a living being like reason, character, feeling, consciousness, memory then Johnny has all of that. So does V even though they died several times over the course of events.

If I understand your arguments right then V is also "just code" in the end, because they get "soulkilled" by Alt in every ending where you meet her. When V sits down with Johnny they're basically two engrams talking to each other.

For me it's: soul = consciousness = engram unless you mix religion into it, but it definitely makes some interesting conversation material.

Almost right. My argument is, V is "just code" even before V gets soulkilled by Alt. Every living person is "just code". Note, "human" is not just one's person, "human" refers to biological body + person. As in, obviously Johnny is not a human when Yorinobu steals the relic from Tokyo - at the time, Johnny is "just code" on a fancy chip. Nonetheless, even then, Johnny is still a person. If he wouldn't be, then we wouldn't see all his escapades in the game, now would we.

And indeed, much depends on how one defines the "soul" term. In real world / history, humans were arguing about this for millenia. Fortunately, lately, lots new information became available which helps to find the answer. To me, the definition of human (and equally even non-human) soul - is this: "the sum of subconsious data and subconsious processes which use any part of subconsious data in any way". That's all it is. Why?

We know "soul" is not any part of brain tissue itself: there are living humans in real world who only have one half of the brain - some have left half, others have right half. It's amazing, but those folks live on for decades and pretty much normally. From this, we know it ain't either half of one's brain which "holds" one's soul. As for brain stem - modern science established without a doubt that that part is doing mainly "technical" functions for the body, like automating heart beating, breathing, sweating, etc. Hardly can host one's "soul", given how one of few things about "souls" which is never disputed - is that "soul" must include one's ethical features and host high-level (including, worded) experiences.

We know "soul" is not matherial in general, too: apart from some silly attempts to trick people, all the serious and good measurements intended to detect "soul departure" upon death - has ended in complete failure, afaik.

Next, modern science does not observe any "supernatural" or "divine" events, in any kind of happenings observable. Thus, if we want to remain reasonable and practical (some don't, but i do) - our modus operandi should be this: no matter if "God" and/or "hidden dimensions" exist, as long as we can detect no manifestation of such - we should proceed as if those do not exist.

The above excludes everything except "code". Data which in human brain is stored by neurons and neuron networks (the nature of connections between neurons). This code shifts and changes throughout one's life, it shifts and changes massively even during every night's sleep (this is all well documented by now).

The only part left to distinction, then - is whether one's consiousness (recognised thoughts, intentions, ideas, etc) is "included" into one's soul, or not. I say, it is not. The reason is more etymological than anything else, though: traditionally, one's "soul" is understood to be something hidden, something not available for one's own self-analysis, something much unknown to both person him/herself and others around. In my country, there is even one old proverb: "someone else's soul - is all in darkness", meaning one can't ever be sure of someone else's true desires.

And that's how i get the definition above. If you can anyhow append and/or correct it - please, do.

P.S. And in this, purely technical, sense, - yep, i am plenty sure that many animals have a soul of their own, too, in real world. Anything which can be trained any, even simple, "tricks" - cats, dogs, dolphins, crows, elephants, even octopuses, you name it, - i think have a subconsiousness of their own. A place where fears, and joys, and recognition of familiar "faces" - be it humans or other animals - happen, etc etc. Means, they have a soul. Simpler soul than human's, likely, - perhaps except whales, we know too little about those big fellas, - but still a soul nonetheless. And of course, there are cats and even few birds in the game, so you see? Relevant.

 

[V-WalknTalknCorpse]

1st, Brendan is not an AI. If your V has sufficiently high Tech stat, you'll see through Brendan's true nature: V recognises that Brendan hardware is just way, way too weak to anyhow allow any AI process to actually happen on it, and tells about it to Brendan during the last quest in the chain. Basically, Brendan is a glorified calculator with smart routines designed to mimic (but not replicate) intelligence. In Mass Effect, this sort of systems is widely known as "VI" - virtual intelligence. Brendan is one such system.

2nd, yes, i am aware, mutliple AI types in lore. Some are even so far advanced and/or introverted it's practically impossible for a human to have any conversation with 'em. However, this whole argument we're having - is nothing else and nothing but the old "Ghost in the Shell" debate. Do andoids dream of electric sheep? You say they don't. I say they do. You say they don't have a soul. I say they do. And those two monks? They sorta dodge the question. As usual for their kind to do.

And here's "why". Yes, engrams are code. AI is code. Thing is, personally, i am plenty sure human psyche is _also_ code. Nothing else and nothing but than quite messy, biological origin, self-morphing code. This does not mean humans don't have a soul - they do. I can give you a definition of human soul if you're interested, even. And similarly, engrams also have a soul. The name of that program? Misleading. It only refers to the loss of biological "hardware" human psyche initially operates from, and this biological hardware has certain quirks which make human soul to manifest itself more. But when copied into a relic or into Mikoshi servers in orbit, humans who were "soulkilled" do not lose their soul, in my opinion - they only lose significant part of their ability to change their soul (though, i'd argue, they gain more in ability to express it to others beings).

And yep, i know the game disagrees with me here. Soulkiller is treated as if it does, indeed, kill one's soul - by game's lore. Oh well. Sucks to be me... %)

It all is one hell lengthy and coplicated stuff which this post barely scratches the surface of. If you're interested in more details, please tell.

We'll devolve into several different arguments, all I'm saying is, V is human, Johnny is not, I forgot to mention, in the conversation with Alt, when she says it's pointless for her to talk to an engram, she also says you, V, are the human factor.
All I was against was the idea that V is gone and that Johnny is the only one controlling V's body.
What I think is Johnny is an engram, which, specifically what I asked you to Google, will show that, All extracted neural patterns from humans before their death(engrams), like soullkiller does, classify under symbolic analysis AI. They are also very similar to a non-fiction idea of a symbolic AI, Google that.
Leaving the question of the soul aside, because who the fuck knows if humans even have that. You seem so sure about all you are saying, you really shouldn't be.
But I'm also not going to argue nature Vs nurture with you about a psyche being code.

https://cyberpunk.fandom.com/wiki/Artificial_intelligence
For AI.

https://cyberpunk.fandom.com/wiki/Beelzebub's_Tales_to_His_Grandson
For the Soul.

Post automatically merged: Apr 8, 2021

Well depends how you define soul. If a soul or psyche are the mental abilities of a living being like reason, character, feeling, consciousness, memory then Johnny has all of that. So does V even though they died several times over the course of events.

If I understand your arguments right then V is also "just code" in the end, because they get "soulkilled" by Alt in every ending where you meet her. When V sits down with Johnny they're basically two engrams talking to each other.

For me it's: soul = consciousness = engram unless you mix religion into it, but it definitely makes some interesting conversation material.

Beelzebub's Tales to His Grandson

Beelzebub's Tales to His Grandson is a readable shard in Cyberpunk 2077. It is an excerpt from G.I. Gurdjieff's Beelzebub's Tales to His Grandson: An Objectively Impartial Criticism of the Life of Man, a foundational text of The Fourth Way teachings, first published in 1950. Can be found on the...

cyberpunk.fandom.com

 

[Netrunner2go]

Delamain for sure if u can call it character - im so damn annoyed that u cant stfu him until u clear all of his missions.
Its/his calls are super disgusting on endless repeat... literally all over the map.... everywhere at any time...

 

[lynxir]

Almost right. My argument is, V is "just code" even before V gets soulkilled by Alt. Every living person is "just code". Note, "human" is not just one's person, "human" refers to biological body + person. As in, obviously Johnny is not a human when Yorinobu steals the relic from Tokyo - at the time, Johnny is "just code" on a fancy chip. Nonetheless, even then, Johnny is still a person. If he wouldn't be, then we wouldn't see all his escapades in the game, now would we.

And indeed, much depends on how one defines the "soul" term. In real world / history, humans were arguing about this for millenia. Fortunately, lately, lots new information became available which helps to find the answer. To me, the definition of human (and equally even non-human) soul - is this: "the sum of subconsious data and subconsious processes which use any part of subconsious data in any way". That's all it is. Why?

We know "soul" is not any part of brain tissue itself: there are living humans in real world who only have one half of the brain - some have left half, others have right half. It's amazing, but those folks live on for decades and pretty much normally. From this, we know it ain't either half of one's brain which "holds" one's soul. As for brain stem - modern science established without a doubt that that part is doing mainly "technical" functions for the body, like automating heart beating, breathing, sweating, etc. Hardly can host one's "soul", given how one of few things about "souls" which is never disputed - is that "soul" must include one's ethical features and host high-level (including, worded) experiences.

We know "soul" is not matherial in general, too: apart from some silly attempts to trick people, all the serious and good measurements intended to detect "soul departure" upon death - has ended in complete failure, afaik.

Next, modern science does not observe any "supernatural" or "divine" events, in any kind of happenings observable. Thus, if we want to remain reasonable and practical (some don't, but i do) - our modus operandi should be this: no matter if "God" and/or "hidden dimensions" exist, as long as we can detect no manifestation of such - we should proceed as if those do not exist.

The above excludes everything except "code". Data which in human brain is stored by neurons and neuron networks (the nature of connections between neurons). This code shifts and changes throughout one's life, it shifts and changes massively even during every night's sleep (this is all well documented by now).

The only part left to distinction, then - is whether one's consiousness (recognised thoughts, intentions, ideas, etc) is "included" into one's soul, or not. I say, it is not. The reason is more etymological than anything else, though: traditionally, one's "soul" is understood to be something hidden, something not available for one's own self-analysis, something much unknown to both person him/herself and others around. In my country, there is even one old proverb: "someone else's soul - is all in darkness", meaning one can't ever be sure of someone else's true desires.

And that's how i get the definition above. If you can anyhow append and/or correct it - please, do.

P.S. And in this, purely technical, sense, - yep, i am plenty sure that many animals have a soul of their own, too, in real world. Anything which can be trained any, even simple, "tricks" - cats, dogs, dolphins, crows, elephants, even octopuses, you name it, - i think have a subconsiousness of their own. A place where fears, and joys, and recognition of familiar "faces" - be it humans or other animals - happen, etc etc. Means, they have a soul. Simpler soul than human's, likely, - perhaps except whales, we know too little about those big fellas, - but still a soul nonetheless. And of course, there are cats and even few birds in the game, so you see? Relevant.

I agree with you on almost all points, was mostly trying to understand V-WalknTalknCorpse's view, tbh.

 

[Fins_FinsT]

I agree with you on almost all points, was mostly trying to understand V-WalknTalknCorpse's view, tbh.

So what are your throughts about it? Sure wild idea eh.

1st, to be honest, i did not mean it "entirely serious". Obviously, the game screams at us in SO many points: "V is still alive!". So there's that. Even if logic dictates V's all gone the moment Dex makes the shot, - we can assume it was sorta bad writing for Relic specification in-game. So there's that.

2nd - much more interesting, to me, is "what if it's true - what if V's all dead once Johnny shows up"?

Well.

If it's "two personalities, one Johnny" in V's body, then:

- it's clear that remains of V's psyche were saved by either the relic itself, and/or V's brain: there are certain lines Johnny says which prove he's aware about V's past experiences. For example, if you skip Jackie's funeral, then Johnny at some point will comment how quickly V forgets about her "friends". How would he know Jackie was V's friend, though, given that V slots in the relic only after Jackie's dead and even more, Johnny's engram starts to "get in" only after Dex's shot, by which time V sees / hears nothing about Jackie (nor about anybody, being _dead_)? He'd have no idea, unless looking into V's memories. This is likely done not unlike the procedure which is being used to extract memories of one "Peter Pan" (River's quest line), who's in coma and presumably brain dead ("empty shell" and all, as per River's words);

- the whole "struggle" between Johnny-persona and V-persona in the head of a body with only one functioning person inside being Johnny - would be nothing short of Schizophrenia, so we're playing a madman. Means, "all bets off", you know? If we're crazy to begin with, then hey, what holds us from doing crazy stuff? We're insane anyhow!

- the END GAME choices come in entirely different light. If it's no living-V around, then what would make Johnny to agree to go with Alt beyond the black wall, for example? Only his sickness (of imagining two people in his - now - own head). Thus, whole new picture of estimating what would be "good" and "bad" ending - is emerging. And personally, the ending where Johnny gifts that old expensive guitar to some street kid and then drives away in a bus? Heck, the happiest ending ever, if it's "just Johnny" to begin with!

So you see, lotsa interesting implications. What are yours?

 

[lynxir]

So what are your throughts about it? Sure wild idea eh.

1st, to be honest, i did not mean it "entirely serious". Obviously, the game screams at us in SO many points: "V is still alive!". So there's that. Even if logic dictates V's all gone the moment Dex makes the shot, - we can assume it was sorta bad writing for Relic specification in-game. So there's that.

2nd - much more interesting, to me, is "what if it's true - what if V's all dead once Johnny shows up"?

Well.

If it's "two personalities, one Johnny" in V's body, then:

- it's clear that remains of V's psyche were saved by either the relic itself, and/or V's brain: there are certain lines Johnny says which prove he's aware about V's past experiences. For example, if you skip Jackie's funeral, then Johnny at some point will comment how quickly V forgets about her "friends". How would he know Jackie was V's friend, though, given that V slots in the relic only after Jackie's dead and even more, Johnny's engram starts to "get in" only after Dex's shot, by which time V sees / hears nothing about Jackie (nor about anybody, being _dead_)? He'd have no idea, unless looking into V's memories. This is likely done not unlike the procedure which is being used to extract memories of one "Peter Pan" (River's quest line), who's in coma and presumably brain dead ("empty shell" and all, as per River's words);

- the whole "struggle" between Johnny-persona and V-persona in the head of a body with only one functioning person inside being Johnny - would be nothing short of Schizophrenia, so we're playing a madman. Means, "all bets off", you know? If we're crazy to begin with, then hey, what holds us from doing crazy stuff? We're insane anyhow!

- the END GAME choices come in entirely different light. If it's no living-V around, then what would make Johnny to agree to go with Alt beyond the black wall, for example? Only his sickness (of imagining two people in his - now - own head). Thus, whole new picture of estimating what would be "good" and "bad" ending - is emerging. And personally, the ending where Johnny gifts that old expensive guitar to some street kid and then drives away in a bus? Heck, the happiest ending ever, if it's "just Johnny" to begin with!

So you see, lotsa interesting implications. What are yours?

Maybe not the right thread for this discussion?

I haven't honestly completely figured out how the whole dead-but-then-alive-again-V-thing is working. My theory was that V was definitely clinically dead for a short time (the brain stopped working) so the relic activated. In the moment it activated it released some nerve impulses along with the nanites into V's system which somehow kicked V's original brain back to life. Nanites start the repair job, here's Johnny, story continues. Scientists found out that much functionality of the brain can be preserved or restored - even hours after death. So V is alive again with their normal consciousness.

 

[Netrunner2go]

Maybe not the right thread for this discussion?

I haven't honestly completely figured out how the whole dead-but-then-alive-again-V-thing is working. My theory was that V was definitely clinically dead for a short time (the brain stopped working) so the relic activated. In the moment it activated it released some nerve impulses along with the nanites into V's system which somehow kicked V's original brain back to life. Nanites start the repair job, here's Johnny, story continues. Scientists found out that much functionality of the brain can be preserved or restored - even hours after death. So V is alive again with their normal consciousness.

thats how i interpreted it as well in my first run but than again i stopped thinking about it to much 8)

 

[Fins_FinsT]

Maybe not the right thread for this discussion?

I haven't honestly completely figured out how the whole dead-but-then-alive-again-V-thing is working. My theory was that V was definitely clinically dead for a short time (the brain stopped working) so the relic activated. In the moment it activated it released some nerve impulses along with the nanites into V's system which somehow kicked V's original brain back to life. Nanites start the repair job, here's Johnny, story continues. Scientists found out that much functionality of the brain can be preserved or restored - even hours after death. So V is alive again with their normal consciousness.

Maybe, but then it's 5th page. To me, it looks like "please stay on topic" thingie - ends somewhere around 3rd page of any topic, give or take a few, anyway...

As for your theory - yes, i believe it's exactly how we are supposed to understand it. To me, looks like the game meant exactly that a thing - in general. At least, for any player who "doesn't pay too close attention to detail".

But i do.

Here's my theory of what actually happened - again, based on this:

This is, of course, the contents of the shard which V can read after Hellman gives V specifications for Relic 2.0. It never opens "itself", there is no prompt to read it, but it sits there in "Shards" menu ever after, free to be read.

So, you see, it's specifically "COMPLETE and IRREVERSIBLE shutdown of neural activity" being the trigger. How relic "detects" that host's brain stopped all neurological activity? Why, my theory is that it simply monitors brain waves, real-time, the same way EEG does in real life: EEG literally measures electrical activity of a brain, and electricual activity of a brain is exactly "neural activity" for short.

Next, like it or not, no matter "dead" or "alive" any specific human _body_ is at any given time, - the complete end of electrical activity in human brain is, indeed, irreversible in real life. Quote: "... The patient in the deepest coma will show some EEG electroactivity, while the brain-dead patient will not".

Further, you can also see Relic 2.0 requires "brain death" and "cardiac arrest" to start working. You can also see they tried to activate it "on the verge of biological death" - to no success. This means, V was not "almost" dead after Dex' shot. V was dead - period. Both body (cardiac arrest) and person (brain death).

From the same source i linked above, we also can learn this, quote: "Brain Death is death. No brain function exists. Brain death results from swelling in the brain; blood flow in the brain ceases and without blood to oxygenate the cells, the tissue dies. It is irreversible. Once brain tissue dies, there is nothing that can be done to heal it". All the cases where scientists were able to "reanimate" someone's brain? Not brain deaths. Deep comas, shock states, you name it - but not complete loss of neural activity.

From this same picture above, also learn that in Arasaka experiments, once host body and brain were dead, Relic 2.0 started to transfer the engram - but every time, it "lapsed": failed to complete the transfer.

So why, then, in V's case it worked?

My theory:

the instant Dex' bullet hits the Relic (and we know it does, as Relic said to be damaged by the shot, many times, in the game) - damage to the Relic causes powerful release of electricity into V's brain, which shuts down V's own neural activity in an instant. This results in brain death, this also results in cardiac arrest (human heart's every beat is triggered by brain's electric signals, which is why our hearts start to beat faster when we are, say, in love).

Thus, in an instant, all the required conditions for engram transfer - appear. So the process starts right away. The difference here is that merely microseconds before the electric shock to V's brain - whole brain was in perfectly healthy state. No cells were suffering oxygen deprivation. No swelling of tissues was present. No problems at all - perfectly healthy brain tissues. Which is not the case when someone is "on the verge of biological death" when it's biological causes of death: it's always big deterioration happening 1st, then death 2nd. Perhaps, even fraction of a second matters here, for Relic transfer to be able to complete before brain tissues become irreversibly damaged?

But exact time intervals aside, in principle, if this is what happened - then V's person as a whole could not survive, in principle. Nothing even close to it. Human brain stores information - including memories - by persistent alterations of certain parts of neuron cells of the brain (details). This means, Relic 2.0 changes host body's brain neurons states to "write" into host brain memories, habits, other features of engram's persona (in our case - Johnny's). Means, the old state - which was exactly what defined V's person - is largely erased. Some left-overs can remain, but most of it? All Johnny.

This is how "technically speaking", "strictly logically" - V's dead after Dex' shot. I see no alternative, given how detailed and specific that Relic 2.0 Spec shard is. Is there any?

 

[lynxir]

Maybe, but then it's 5th page. To me, it looks like "please stay on topic" thingie - ends somewhere around 3rd page of any topic, give or take a few, anyway...

As for your theory - yes, i believe it's exactly how we are supposed to understand it. To me, looks like the game meant exactly that a thing - in general. At least, for any player who "doesn't pay too close attention to detail".

But i do.

Here's my theory of what actually happened - again, based on this:

View attachment 11207944

This is, of course, the contents of the shard which V can read after Hellman gives V specifications for Relic 2.0. It never opens "itself", there is no prompt to read it, but it sits there in "Shards" menu ever after, free to be read.

So, you see, it's specifically "COMPLETE and IRREVERSIBLE shutdown of neural activity" being the trigger. How relic "detects" that host's brain stopped all neurological activity? Why, my theory is that it simply monitors brain waves, real-time, the same way EEG does in real life: EEG literally measures electrical activity of a brain, and electricual activity of a brain is exactly "neural activity" for short.

Next, like it or not, no matter "dead" or "alive" any specific human _body_ is at any given time, - the complete end of electrical activity in human brain is, indeed, irreversible in real life. Quote: "... The patient in the deepest coma will show some EEG electroactivity, while the brain-dead patient will not".

Further, you can also see Relic 2.0 requires "brain death" and "cardiac arrest" to start working. You can also see they tried to activate it "on the verge of biological death" - to no success. This means, V was not "almost" dead after Dex' shot. V was dead - period. Both body (cardiac arrest) and person (brain death).

From the same source i linked above, we also can learn this, quote: "Brain Death is death. No brain function exists. Brain death results from swelling in the brain; blood flow in the brain ceases and without blood to oxygenate the cells, the tissue dies. It is irreversible. Once brain tissue dies, there is nothing that can be done to heal it". All the cases where scientists were able to "reanimate" someone's brain? Not brain deaths. Deep comas, shock states, you name it - but not complete loss of neural activity.

From this same picture above, also learn that in Arasaka experiments, once host body and brain were dead, Relic 2.0 started to transfer the engram - but every time, it "lapsed": failed to complete the transfer.

So why, then, in V's case it worked?

My theory:

the instant Dex' bullet hits the Relic (and we know it does, as Relic said to be damaged by the shot, many times, in the game) - damage to the Relic causes powerful release of electricity into V's brain, which shuts down V's own neural activity in an instant. This results in brain death, this also results in cardiac arrest (human heart's every beat is triggered by brain's electric signals, which is why our hearts start to beat faster when we are, say, in love).

Thus, in an instant, all the required conditions for engram transfer - appear. So the process starts right away. The difference here is that merely microseconds before the electric shock to V's brain - whole brain was in perfectly healthy state. No cells were suffering oxygen deprivation. No swelling of tissues was present. No problems at all - perfectly healthy brain tissues. Which is not the case when someone is "on the verge of biological death" when it's biological causes of death: it's always big deterioration happening 1st, then death 2nd. Perhaps, even fraction of a second matters here, for Relic transfer to be able to complete before brain tissues become irreversibly damaged?

But exact time intervals aside, in principle, if this is what happened - then V's person as a whole could not survive, in principle. Nothing even close to it. Human brain stores information - including memories - by persistent alterations of certain parts of neuron cells of the brain (details). This means, Relic 2.0 changes host body's brain neurons states to "write" into host brain memories, habits, other features of engram's persona (in our case - Johnny's). Means, the old state - which was exactly what defined V's person - is largely erased. Some left-overs can remain, but most of it? All Johnny.

This is how "technically speaking", "strictly logically" - V's dead after Dex' shot. I see no alternative, given how detailed and specific that Relic 2.0 Spec shard is. Is there any?

Ohhh, that Relic 2.0 spec shard is an interesting find - never read it on my first playthrough and I'm still in Act 1 on my second (with a Nomad who reads every damn shard he finds, haha!). But yeah, it definitely doesn't leave any doubt that V died there in the landfill.

 

[OG_VELI]

the instant Dex' bullet hits the Relic (and we know it does, as Relic said to be damaged by the shot, many times, in the game) - damage to the Relic causes powerful release of electricity into V's brain, which shuts down V's own neural activity in an instant. This results in brain death, this also results in cardiac arrest (human heart's every beat is triggered by brain's electric signals, which is why our hearts start to beat faster when we are, say, in love).

Thus, in an instant, all the required conditions for engram transfer - appear. So the process starts right away. The difference here is that merely microseconds before the electric shock to V's brain - whole brain was in perfectly healthy state. No cells were suffering oxygen deprivation. No swelling of tissues was present. No problems at all - perfectly healthy brain tissues. Which is not the case when someone is "on the verge of biological death" when it's biological causes of death: it's always big deterioration happening 1st, then death 2nd. Perhaps, even fraction of a second matters here, for Relic transfer to be able to complete before brain tissues become irreversibly damaged?

The conditions for the Relic to activate are irrelevant because Relic 2.0 does not work on dead/dying people. This means that the Relic malfunctioned when hit by the bullet and then activated while V was still alive, hence Hellman's line "Which makes what happened to you interesting indeed."

This is how "technically speaking", "strictly logically" - V's dead after Dex' shot.

Nah, V is alive. It's just that their brain is trying to make sense (talking to itself) of having two distinct personalities and memories. It's like dissociative identity disorder where the only thing different being the audible hallucinations of the secondary personality.

 

[Ayinde_Palmer]

I see. Well in this case i think it's just that you are not aware about certain in-game things and lore, which makes you think what you think. Specifically:

1st, preparations Dex took were not "poor", which we know by the following facts:

- he spent his own cash, and in advance, to buy the drone (this gets confirmed by sellers of the drone itself when one particular dialog is experienced by V);

- he created a plan which, in fact, worked perfectly well, despite Yorinobu's quarters being one of most protected spaces in the whole Night City, which is nothing to sneeze at. This includes fake identities and papers for V and Jackie as well as corresponding Night City database entries;

- he spent his own cash to hire Delorean, at at its most expensive form, too (which includes combat mode which, naturally, saved V's life when Smasher tries to rip delorean apart).

In the whole game, no other fixer does as much. Nothing close to. Both main and side missions. For example, when V needs to get in touch with one certain maman Brigitte - local fixer just sends V to a local church to be contacted by an unknown person who will offer V some unknown job, for no reward other than to hopefully be able to talk to the woman.

2nd, yep, Dex is scared Arasaka will get him - but he's very much correct in doing so. He's so scared that if you'd have V not go to the bathroom, but stand in Dex's room a little bit - then you'd hear Dex making a phone call to get aboard a shuttle that same very day, to leave Earth entirely.

To understand why he's correct in such a big a fear, one would need to pay attention to some small dialogs throughout the game, and certain "historical" shards in the game - ones which tell the story of corporate wars of the past. From those, we learn that Arasaka, for decades, is a force comparable to whole US / Militech armed forces in miltary sense, and perhaps unrivalled global intelligence service of the time, on top (things like "you can't sneeze in Night City without some sakura pettles dropping in Tokyo"). Further, we also learn from corpo prologue that Arasaka is able, willing and indeed do mass killings even when victims are some diplomats.

This corp is a machine which kills its targets without any speck of pity, utter efficiency and deadly grasp. And at the helm of this corp for great many decades stood Soburo Arasaka - a man who writes in his diary how he could turn whole Night City to ashes in a matter of just few minutes, if that would be his wish; "but for now i decided not to do it". This is the caliber of Arasaka, you see - a nuclear private power.

Imagine yourself in Dex's place, with your enemy being US army guided by CIA and "forgetting" about any humanitarian laws, all in order to get back something very important which you stole from US president whom, they think, you also killed. This is nearly the same situation to what Dex found himself in.

As for killing V: V was an extra lead to Dex, which arasaka could well take. Dex had no way to know how much of V's identity / circumstances arasaka was able to figure out during and right after the heist. This is why Dex kills V - it's simply self-preservation. And we can clearly see Dex takes no enjoyment in it, too. As he himself says right before killing V: something along "seems like i chose small life and getting old, after all" line, with almost regret in his voice. It's just that he knows that taking V's life is much increasing the chances to save his own.

So yep, Dex is right to feel that huge fear. And perhaps the ultimate proof of his fears being appropriate - is his very fate, itself: despite all his efforts, he _is_ killed by an arasaka personnel: Takemura, at the time, operates under direct orders from his new boss, Arasaka CEO, Yorinobu Arasaka.

And last and not least, Dex himself explains in at least one particular line of V's last talk with Dex: there was no way to know Soburo Arasaka would visit Yorinobu's appartment. Nobody could prepare for that. Soburo's plans and schedule - as any big corp's CEO plans and schedule - is very closely and efficiently guarded secret. Dex is not to blame here - no fixer, no matter how good, could foresee that.

but why would dex think he is going to be in a better situation against the "cia" by killing the last lead? If he helped V escape, at least he'd have some type of leverage with Arasaka. Hind sight says he survived as long as they didnt have V in custody.

Post automatically merged: Apr 9, 2021

Fair question indeed. The game does not explain this sequence in any detail. But we can try to deduct some things with certainty.

1st, we know Takemura works for Yorinobu because Takemura starts to do it right when V's hiding next to Saburo's body: Yorinobu asks what Takemura's job is, Takemura says "to protect head of Arasaka", Yorinobu then reminds that he, himself, is head of Arasaka now, and Takemura complies to Yorinobu's 1st direct order. We see all that.

2nd, we know Takemura is attacked by Arasaka forces right after he kills Dex and gets V. We see it happen. We also know that about same time or very shortly after, Arasaka starts to hunt Takemura, disables his implants, blocks his accounts, etc.

3rd, we know Yorinobu killed Saburo. We see that.

4th, we know initially Yorinobu states Saburo was poisoned - we also see that, right then and there.

5th, we know Yorinobu would inevitably discover (this or that way) that Relic is missing, very soon after he murdered Saburo. Such a thing can't remain unnoticed for any long - at very least because building's netrunner was disabled by the drone, which gets discoverd soon after no matter what happens, and from there a prompt investigation leading to discovering the relic is gone would be done.

6th, we know Arasaka discovered T-Bug and eliminated her in short order. We hear that, and later get confirmation from no other than Rogue herseld that T-Bug is dead.


Those facts are sufficient to figure out what happened while V was knocked out:

- Yorinobu's 1st priority would be to make sure nobody blames him a murderer. Initially, he states Saburo was "poisoned" by (it implies) unknown assailant. But as soon as Yorinobu discovers relic was stolen - obviously most convinient person to blame Saburo's death on would be the thief who stole it. Which was, V;

- Yorinobu then commands full scale investigation by Arasaka forces: the official goal is "to find Saburo's killer", the unofficial goal - is to find the relic as well, and the secret goal - is to get rid of V, because Yorinobu knows that whoever "thief" is - it wasn't that person who killed Saburo, and thus that person would be able to tell other people that Yorinobu lies about it;

- If nothing else, they quickly investigate who T-Bug was, her peers and connections. Lots of people knew T-Bug worked with Dex. Thus Arasaka would then very much want "to ask Dex a few questions". But Dex was hurrying to orbit, as we know. So, Arasaka was able to intercept and capture Dex before he flew away in that shuttle (which does not surprise me at all);

- then, Arasaka was able, via interrogation of Dex, to learn V's identity (if not by any other means). Yorinobu's true goal was to kill V and blame Saburo's death on V with nobody able to prove otherwise. To do it well, Yorinobu sent a single but very capable operative - Takemura - to the dump where V's body was thrown away at, to verify "for sure" that V is dead;

- the plan was, then, to have Takemura eliminate Dex, and in turn some other operatives to eliminate Takemura. The latter both to hide whole "gotta make sure V is dead" nature of the operation, but also because Yorinobu (quite rightfully!) suspected that Takemura still got lots of loyalness to Saburo personally, and would not rest until digging up everything possible about Saburo's death. A risk Yorunobu could not take.

This is how and why Takemura ends up hunted by Arasaka, which in turn makes him willing to save and later work with V. Note, however, that Takemura is indeed never loyal to V; should V choose not to get to Arasaka in the end, and provided Takemura survived through, - he'll be very, very spiteful and hateful towards V in the end credits.

Post automatically merged: Apr 1, 2021

Johnny and Panam both solid choices, but Kerry? Come on, the guy's just a gonk. Have some pity!

I disagree, I think its likely that Takemura was specifically not supposed to be hunting V. Yorinobu wants takemura not to question Saburo's death, and focus instead on protecting the new head.

Hunting V doesn't help yorinobu's real goals, and yorinobu is specifically trying to get the relic into hands other than Arasaka (and possibly ressurect johnny). Having a nameless assassin no one ever finds is the thing most likely to achieve all of yorinobu's goals.

Once Yorinobu sees Takemura has found V, only then are great efforts made to deal with him, and Yorinobu's attacks are always focused on Takemura.

 

[Fins_FinsT]

The conditions for the Relic to activate are irrelevant because Relic 2.0 does not work on dead/dying people. This means that the Relic malfunctioned when hit by the bullet and then activated while V was still alive, hence Hellman's line "Which makes what happened to you interesting indeed."


Nah, V is alive. It's just that their brain is trying to make sense (talking to itself) of having two distinct personalities and memories. It's like dissociative identity disorder where the only thing different being the audible hallucinations of the secondary personality.

Relic 2.0 works exactly and only on dead/dying people. Which is right there in the screenshot i posted above. It can't work on anybody alive even if they are on the verge of death. Says it right there - they tried that, multiple times. Doesn't work. The host must be dead for Relic 2.0 to initiate the process.

Obviously, since after engram transfer the body must be alive - Relic 2.0 tech is literally ressurecting the body. And "reboots" the mind - i.e. starts brain's neural activity from a blank state, from zero processes ("brain death") to processes defined by the engram (new person "installed"). Which "reboot" is also mentioned right there in the screenshot.

 

[Ayinde_Palmer]

Relic 2.0 works exactly and only on dead/dying people. Which is right there in the screenshot i posted above. It can't work on anybody alive even if they are on the verge of death. Says it right there - they tried that, multiple times. Doesn't work. The host must be dead for Relic 2.0 to initiate the process.

Obviously, since after engram transfer the body must be alive - Relic 2.0 tech is literally ressurecting the body. And "reboots" the mind - i.e. starts brain's neural activity from a blank state, from zero processes ("brain death") to processes defined by the engram (new person "installed"). Which "reboot" is also mentioned right there in the screenshot.

the document you are referring to, are notes on a relic that never succeeded. Not with dead. nor alive subjects.

So obviously the relic in V's situation did not behave the same way it did in previous tests.

You can't refer to a document that says relic always fails. as an explanation of how it succeeds.


Its unknown exactly why, or how, if V died, or if he lived, how much brain was Johnny or V at any given moment during the story.