Ludonarrative dissonance

[SergeTroy]

While I generally agree, this is something I'm comfortable with overlooking. It's along the lines of finding your kid in Fallout 4 or The Forest: Nobody actually wants to do that because then the game is over. There could be better ties between various side missions and gigs to the rest of the main story, always. And I personally wish there were mini missions to locate particularly cool clothing and armor rather than leaving it up to the player to just stumble upon them.

 

[Maranares]

Honesty, that's the same for nearly every open world rpg game out there.

Fallout 4: your son is missing, you want to save him and avenge your wife. But there you go, killing deathclaws and exploring the Wasteland like you're some kind of tourist.

Skyrim: you witnessed a dragon, which everyone believed to be extincts. Better tell about that to someone important as fast as possible, before dragons start setting everything ablaze!... Oh, wait, is that an ancient Dwemer ruin i see in the distance...? Well, i really need a pair of Dwemer boots to match my torso...

The Witcher 3: again, your daughter is missing, but Geralt is taking his sweet time between killing a monster and playing Gwent.

And so on.

While i do agree having basically a timed bomb inside your head is maybe the worst case of "exploring vs urgency", it's not like in other games this problem isn't a thing.

Maybe the only company who handles this fairly well is Rockstar: you normally are a criminal just trying to survive, get rich or rise in power; so every mission, even minor ones, actively contributes to your cause. But even there, once the main quests really start to develop (tipically between mid to late game), you always feel some sense of urgency.

Anyway, this doesn't bother me in the slightest. Never did, honestly. I WANT to have an important, life-or-death reason to finish the main quest, because main quests have to be epic and memorable, and like in every work of literature or in any movie, an epic quest requires an important reason to do it. But i even want to take my time doing it, because this is the very definition of an OPEN WORLD game: "a virtual world that the player can explore and approach objectives freely, as opposed to a world with more linear and structured gameplay" (from Wikipedia). APPROACH OBJECTIVES FREELY, including saving your own life. Does it make sense? Not in the slightest. Does it bother me? Nope.

 

[PepeSmug]

Absolutely. Could not agree more.

And more than the sense of urgency, to me anyway, it just doesn't seem plausible for V to care. It defies basic logic that V would be voluntarily concerning themselves with other peoples' problems, to say nothing to taking on NCPD dispatches or scavenging for crafting materials.

It's along the lines of finding your kid in Fallout 4

I mean, that's a significant problem with Fallout 4 as well, and one of the reasons that the game doesn't work for a lot of people.

 

[SergeTroy]

@Maranares I always got my kids names confused between Timmy from The Forest and Shaun from Fallout 4. Not to mention all the random names I made up for them along the way.

 

[dxd2504119318]

Yes I realise they wanted to feature their "Star Name" early on, but to me it was to the detriment of the game overall

But with the addition of Keanu Reeves, the game got more attention. It makes the sales look good when it's on sale. Obviously, they should need more time to cope with the change of Kinu's joining. But they didn't do it well.

 

[PepeSmug]

Skyrim: you witnessed a dragon, which everyone believed to be extincts. Better tell about that to someone important as fast as possible, before dragons start setting everything ablaze!... Oh, wait, is that an ancient Dwemer ruin i see in the distance...? Well, i really need a pair of Dwemer boots to match my torso...

It's a far cry from having mere weeks to live, while your brain is actively turning into creamed corn by the second.

In Skyrim, It doesn't really break any kind of logic that you would just say "fuck it" and ignore the dragons, since you have no idea that you are the Dragonborn. And the game very graciously allows you to do so by not spawning dragons until you advance the main quest. It's fantastic design, really, and one of the reasons the game has endured.

 

[SergeTroy]

Keanu Reeves remains breathtaking and beloved. I wouldn't have minded at all seeing him a bit crazier but his anger issues alone were strong and made me believe.

 

[Maranares]

the game very graciously allows you to do so by not spawning dragons until you advance the main quest. It's fantastic design, really, and one of the reasons the game has endured.

It takes what, two or three main missions before dragons start roaming the land... The moment Balgruuf send you to investigate the watchtower and you absorb your first dragon soul, there you go, you become the Chosen One and you're still at the beginning of the MQ.

I'm not talking trash about Skyrim, mind you: it's one of my most played games. That was just an example. While i do agree the sense of urgency isn't as strong as in CP, it's still there, but with a world so big and so awesome to explore, i couldn't care less, really.

 

[PepeSmug]

It takes what, two or three main missions before dragons start roaming the land... The moment Balgruuf send you to investigate the watchtower and you absorb your first dragon soul, there you go, you become the Chosen One and you're still at the beginning of the MQ.

I'm not talking trash about Skyrim, mind you: it's one of my most played games. That was just an example. While i do agree the sense of urgency isn't as strong as in CP, it's still there, but with a world so big and so awesome to explore, i couldn't care less, really.

You don't need to talk to Balgruuf. Moreover, the sense of urgency is magnitudes less than "I'm dying in a couple weeks." The implication of the dragons appearing again is very fuzzy and ill-defined as a clear threat until you actually delve into the main quest.

On top of that, the game does a MUCH better job of actively directing the player to interact with other factions as a part of completing the main questline, to the point where it doesn't feel awkward getting bogged down in a civil war or prancing about casting spells all day at the College of Winterhold.

Frankly, conflating that with the whole bomb-in-the-brain plot device is disingenuous, and I won't entertain any further discussion on the subject unless you can come up with an actual argument for why they achieve narrative equivalence.

 

[SergeTroy]

Talking about how awesome this or that game was in comparison to this one feels a bit pointless. I personally disliked Skyrim and found the whole thing tediously boring, requiring a vast array of mods to fix. For me, the main reason to avoid the main storyline was the same reason as to avoid the side quests: they didn't matter to me at all.

 

[Maranares]

Frankly, conflating that with the whole bomb-in-the-brain plot device is disingenuous, and I won't entertain any further discussion on the subject unless you can come up with an actual argument for why they achieve narrative equivalence.

Woah, relax man. You have your opinion, i have mine, no need to get so salty about that.

 

[BAV51]

I played and enjoyed Skyrim and Fallout 4. As has been said there is really no sense of urgency in Skyrim as you become involved in other things before you become the Dragon borne. In Fallout 4 I quickly realised, without seeing spoilers, that Shaun had not been kidnapped hours or days ago and he was no longer a "baby", the plot tells you this. So the sense of "urgency" actually diminishes as you play.

Also neither of these games prevented you from exploring the map before the "urgency" sets in. In all the games I have played I have never felt the game "pushing " me like this one did and as I said I was very upset at the ending I got. Yes there is the option to go back to before Embers, but that feels off, as you continue to play with a character who has progressed past this point.

Whilst I mean no disrespect to Keanu Reeves I feel his inclusion over all did a disservice to the game. I enjoy V's battle with Johnny and it's ultimate resolution, I personally would have been happy for that to be the 2nd half of a longer game.

 

[PepeSmug]

Talking about how awesome this or that game was in comparison to this one feels a bit pointless.

Comparison is foundational to any kind of critical examination of any media. Saying you think it's pointless is conceding that you don't have anything to contribue in terms of the discussion.

 

[Ayinde_Palmer]

Absolutely. Could not agree more.

And more than the sense of urgency, to me anyway, it just doesn't seem plausible for V to care. It defies basic logic that V would be voluntarily concerning themselves with other peoples' problems, to say nothing to taking on NCPD dispatches or scavenging for crafting materials.


I mean, that's a significant problem with Fallout 4 as well, and one of the reasons that the game doesn't work for a lot of people.

whether V survives or dies is mostly based on how much resources/connections they have, the gigs pay money. Also doing nothing while obsessing over your possible demise doesn't increase your chance of survival.

Its an rpg, if the character you created is not the type to do anything other than the main questline, do it. But there is no logical superiority to how you choose to live in this situation.

Also once you decide to use the Alt method, your odds of survival are mostly based on whether you can get her into mikoshi,

Post automatically merged: Apr 12, 2021

I've found the open world much more enjoyable to explore if I just pretend Vic doesn't know what he's talking about, and V isn't imminently dying.

Currently, the characters tell V she is certain to die, but the game tells the player you're on a quest for survival. Maybe, if the player was told "V is guaranteed to die in some unspecified amount of time, how do you want to go out?", there would be less dissonance.

Vik's opinion was always his best guess. He says this the first time. This is literally the first time this has happened, no one knows anything for sure.

 

[Hayte]

Interestingly, one of the reasons I rate Final Fantasy XIII so highly is because it goes to extreme lengths to avoid ludonarrative dissonance.

This is a game where you play as a group of characters who turn fugitive and go on the run so the entire story is like race against time you don't have. As a consequence of this, you don't stay in one place for too long and this was a criticism of the game - you don't get to stay in town and sight see as you did in Alexandria in Final Fantasy IX for example.

Every character has a themed skillset that changes over the course of the game with their character. So Snow is a commando at the start (a hyper offensive direct damage dealer) which matches his foolhardly nature. At some point in the game he realizes how irresponsible he is and he turns into a kind of guardian/protector figure to Hope Estheim. This coincides with the unlocking of his secondary role - a sentinel!

So you go from being a full on damage dealer to a kind of tank hybrid and the game pairs Snow and Hope together where the game subtly teaches you gameplay mechanics by giving you a tank to protect Hope who is a squishy mage.

Vanille is a saboteur - a kind of hex/curse/disruptor type mage which matches her character traits. Unlike the other playable characters, she and Fang were wanted by authorities before the other civvies got roped into their mess and also became fugitives in turn. Wherever Vanille goes she unintentionally sows chaos. She starts off running away from trouble and it keeps catching up to her.

At some point she turns to face her fears and becomes a kind of full support character. She is the last to receive her eidolon summon which is narratively fitting. She has to flee to the end of the earth, return home and find there is nowhere to run before the great sea change in her character. And it is that change in her character (and the journey to get to that point) that informs her decision in the games finale. One of the major themes of the story is defying fate and Vanille ends up embodying that motif at the end.

I thought the care and attention to weaving story into gameplay was really well done. FFXIII had an intensely negative reception from players at launch but looking back on it, there were some things it did which very few games do. I think its a rare thing to see gameplay and story so closely tied together like this.

 

[PepeSmug]

whether V survives or dies is mostly based on how much resources/connections they have, the gigs pay money.

Well, less "mostly" and more "not at all." The main story can be completed without the side content. Moreover, doing the open world content doesn't change the outcome whatsover. There is neither a gameplay nor narrative reason to do any of it.

So, no, needing resources and connections is not a justification.

 

[Ayinde_Palmer]

Well, less "mostly" and more "not at all." The main story can be completed without the side content. Moreover, doing the open world content doesn't change the outcome whatsover. There is neither a gameplay nor narrative reason to do any of it.

So, no, needing resources and connections is not a justification.

if you are talking about ludonarrative dissonance, it makes no sense to examine it from a meta standpoint of, what is the minimum requirements of beating the game. This is only known after you beat the game, And examine it from outside information.

Narratively V has no idea what is needed, or what the minimum requirements are to beat the game. And it is in fact easier, if you have more skills, abilities, etc.

Narratively it is established that money, technology, connections and reputation determine what you can achieve in NC. Narratively doing gigs would improve all those things. There is also no narrative benefit to sleeping in your bed waiting for people to call you back.



And the other big issue, this is an rpg, the world exists for many types of players, part of the narrative question in an rpg, is what type of person is the player role playing. Are they the type to help people under assault? Do they love cars? Are they looking for relationships? Are they curious? The open world exists partially to make the world believable, and set the tone. Things are happening other than the main narrative. Different players may get involved in different ones.

 

[AikoHayashi]

This is a real cyberpunk story (save yourself) put in a sandbox environment. You don't have an actual timer that pushes you to do stuff because you have to, it lets the player decide how to spend the time. As @Ayinde_Palmer mentioned, what Vic said about the few weeks is only a guess. It wouldn't make a difference if he has said 1 year. The player can also skip time for different reasons so fighting against the time would make no sense here... Yeah, in the end, is not clear what the V's fate is in some of the endings except suicide, but for me, this is an open door to further extend the story.

Post automatically merged: Apr 12, 2021

Absolutely. Could not agree more.

And more than the sense of urgency, to me anyway, it just doesn't seem plausible for V to care. It defies basic logic that V would be voluntarily concerning themselves with other peoples' problems, to say nothing to taking on NCPD dispatches or scavenging for crafting materials.


I mean, that's a significant problem with Fallout 4 as well, and one of the reasons that the game doesn't work for a lot of people.

Let's say that the average gaming time is 150 hours in the real world, so you can do basically all missions, earn money, mess with others people's business, let's add 50 hours in the real world that V would need to sleep. That makes gaming 200 hours and a full day in the game is 3 hours in the real world. So V has 66 days to do almost all stuff in the game, including sleeping. That is even not far from Vic's prediction.

 

[Rodocastiza]

Absolutely. Could not agree more.

And more than the sense of urgency, to me anyway, it just doesn't seem plausible for V to care. It defies basic logic that V would be voluntarily concerning themselves with other peoples' problems, to say nothing to taking on NCPD dispatches or scavenging for crafting materials.


I mean, that's a significant problem with Fallout 4 as well, and one of the reasons that the game doesn't work for a lot of people.

Not really. You find your son mid-game. Then, you can roleplay as much as you want because nothing is pushing you to finish the main quest when you meet him...

I think in Cyberpunk (as much as in Witcher) it is not well developed, but a lot of games suffer from this.

Spoiler: F4 Spoiler

You find your son and you discover he older than you think and is a monster. He is not your son anymore. Get depressed and retire as a fisherman in Far Harbor.

Well, you can roleplay from the beginning, the same as you can in Cyberpunk as some people said before, spending time while Takemura is gathering leads.
In F4, I played a Chinese spy who got married because of orders of the Chinese military, marrying a high-rank American military to spy intel. Getting pregnant was an accident, I didn't want the kid but got it to maintain her cover. Then bombs happened, everyone was dead and she was alone in a country she hated, with no possibility of leaving, so she went on a killing spree. Kid? what kid?

 

[PepeSmug]

if you are talking about ludonarrative dissonance, it makes no sense to examine it from a meta standpoint of, what is the minimum requirements of beating the game. This is only known after you beat the game, And examine it from outside information.

Mm hm. Just follow the main story and the game is wrapped up in a few hours. And from the perspective of the narrative, it makes sense to take the most direct choices towards the primary objective.

Not really. You find your son mid-game. Then, you can roleplay as much as you want because nothing is pushing you to finish the main quest when you meet him...

I think in Cyberpunk (as much as in Witcher) it is not well developed, but a lot of games suffer from this.

Well, yes really. It's frequently cited by people as a reason they didn't like the game or the storyline.