[Spoiler Alert] About the endings

+

Do you want more RPGs with happy endings?


  • Total voters
    1,647
Last edited:
Much more likely in a sequel than DLCs IMO. Could be done with separate prologues for differing main V endings.

DISCLAIMER: The below is amateur-rate rampant speculation. I just help keep the forums tidy and have zero insider knowledge or storytelling talent.

Prologue 1: Devil - Arasaka wakes up V granting her a new cured body to but now they say she owes them a huge favor in return (start of Act 1)
Prologue 2: Temperance - Alt finds V a new willing body from some Netrunner but now Alt asks V for a huge favor in return (start of Act 1)
Prologue 3: Star - Nomads find V a cure but now she owes somebody a huge favor in return (start of Act 1)
Prologue 4: Sun - V's contacts in Night City find her a cure, but now she owes somebody a huge favor in return (start of Act 1)

Suicide wouldn't count as canon ending for purposes of 2nd game.

The favor in all 4 openings just needs to be the same McGuffin/favor that leads us into a unified narrative.

You no longer believe in this?
1601307338073.png
 
You no longer believe in this?
View attachment 11210551

That was me, not @Rawls . :)

But yes, it's a laudable goal. The game does largely follow that pattern, except I would say there's an additional choke point at the bottom. However, I think it's there for narrative cohesion, not to limit players' choices.

In the end, every juncture offers pathways forward that are uniquely presented and/or understood through player agency as well as their choices up to that point. Regardless of the "infamous" red chair scene, it doesn't alleviate nor negate the free-form gameplay and exploration of the world and the narrative throughout the body of the game. Nor does it negate meaning behind the choice the player makes at that point. Players will choose the final path based on their understanding of what is really going on, what is truly the most important thing, and why. They will have reached that understanding via the journey they took through the game and their subjective interpretation of the narrative.

In an ideal system, there would come a time in the narrative arc(s) that certain pathways close off completely, making everything that follows for that chosen path through the web exclusive and inevitable. However, if tackling that type of narrative structure and interactivity, I would not have chosen to rely so heavily on a cinematic approach for character and plot development, as the sheer amount of scenework that would need to be done to create individually cohesive arcs, while also delivering a balanced and well-paced narrative, would be literally insane. Rather, the game's story would be largely interpretaive or represented visually (e.g., The player opts to steal a magical idol from a bunch of orks. Rather than a dramatic, branching dialogue scene between you and the orks , which can result in a battle during which the town is attacked and razed...the player would simply arrive home from that quest to find the town already under attack. No dialogue. Just a battle and the realization that these are the same orks that you angered by stealing their magical idol. Whoops... Pathway sealed.)

And, as I've mentioned previously, a single playthrough using this type of approach would be extremely short. If I were going for 6+ unique endings with extremely unique gameplay experiences, then I'd estimate that each, individual playthrough would be about 10 hours long, tops. People that rushed through would probably get there in 4 or 5. That means: from character creation to ending credits, ~10 hours max. The game would based on replaying again and again as different characters. You would see parts of the world you would never be able to see as a different character that made different choices. So the story of this game world and its characters would be delivered through a multifaceted series for "short stories" which paint the unique struggles of different people, races, and cultures in different lights depending on who your character is at the beginning and the player's choice for why they do the things they do.

The game would then need to be marketed on replayability, not on expansive content that players would spend hundreds of hours in, bringing their characters to legendarily godlike status by the end. It would not work like an Elder Scrolls, Dragon Age, or Witcher title. It would be something new. Therefore, it would be a great risk. And there we go. It's still a business.

For my part, I think they did extremely well with the story. The characters are wonderfully colorful and nuanced. I do agree that parts can feel very abrupt, but it didn't ruin the experience for me. The "nexus" of choices players are offered for the endgame does not negate the why of the player making one choice over the other, so I'd argue that it absolutely does not invalidate the player's journey up to that point.

Nor does the relatively universal "tragic" ending. The story is a dramatic tragedy, not a dramatic comedy. Not liking that is fine, but I challenge people claiming it's "too dark" to find me a piece of classical literature that deals with "immortality" and also ends happily. We can search all the way back for thousands of years, across languages, cultures, and epochs. It's a dark topic. That's like arguing that a horror movie is bad because it was too scary at the end.
 
Last edited:
For my part, I think they did extremely well with the story. The characters are wonderfully colorful and nuanced. I do agree that parts can feel very abrupt, but it didn't ruin the experience for me. The "nexus" of choices players are offered for the endgame does not negate the why of the player making one choice over the other, so I'd argue that it absolutely does not invalidate the player's journey up to that point.
I feel my journey is invalidated when the game decides that, because I want to attack Mikoshi without the Aldecaldos, I must now become some detached asshole leader of the Afterlife who has severed most personal connections in favor of this endeavor, which is not how I played the game at all.

Nor does the relatively universal "tragic" ending. The story is a dramatic tragedy, not a dramatic comedy. Not liking that is fine, but I challenge people claiming it's "too dark" to find me a piece of classical literature that deals with "immortality" and also ends happily. We can search all the way back for thousands of years, across languages, cultures, and epochs. It's a dark topic. That's like arguing that a horror movie is bad because it was too scary at the end.
I wouldn't say it's "too dark", but I'd say it's a shitty way to end an RPG. I'm not playing an RPG for some moralizing lesson or character study, I'm playing the game to be a character. When that character is the primary reason I'm playing the game and they inescapably die in every single ending, it's invalidated the entire game for me.
 
I feel my journey is invalidated when the game decides that, because I want to attack Mikoshi without the Aldecaldos, I must now become some detached asshole leader of the Afterlife who has severed most personal connections in favor of this endeavor, which is not how I played the game at all.
I agree with that.
In my first playtrought, it's the only thing that disappointed me relatively. (be able to choose the method for arasaka tower and then between aldecaldos or afterlife).
Other than that V dies in "all" endings, that doesn't bother me more than that. It's not like we didn't suspect it (Hellman). It's just that we hope there will be a miraculous solution. For me it changes ends "they saved the world and lived happily"
 
I feel my journey is invalidated when the game decides that, because I want to attack Mikoshi without the Aldecaldos, I must now become some detached asshole leader of the Afterlife who has severed most personal connections in favor of this endeavor, which is not how I played the game at all.


I wouldn't say it's "too dark", but I'd say it's a shitty way to end an RPG. I'm not playing an RPG for some moralizing lesson or character study, I'm playing the game to be a character. When that character is the primary reason I'm playing the game and they inescapably die in every single ending, it's invalidated the entire game for me.

Yeah the atrocious rooftop mechanic completed invaiidated my character journey. Having your character rewritten on a lazy mission mechanic which bears no relation to the railroaded routing it places the character is just appalling imo.

My preference in a game with choices is their be ability to influence the character's survival, not have forced death. That said this game to me fails because it focuses MC arc solely on survival at expense of building any other motivations/arcs and then yanks it away at the last second. You could certainly build something where the death means something but they don't. I don't find much enthusiasm right now for a game which message seems to either the futility of trying or here's a hook for DLC, certainly not loading it up for another 100+ hour go at futility.
 
I feel my journey is invalidated when the game decides that, because I want to attack Mikoshi without the Aldecaldos, I must now become some detached asshole leader of the Afterlife who has severed most personal connections in favor of this endeavor, which is not how I played the game at all.

[Oh...no...this got long. Sorry...(but I'm doing it anyway! :D ]

That's understandable, but this is directly indicative of having a defined narrative arc as the primary motivation for the player character -- especially if that arc is going to be presented cinematically. I cannot simultaneously include enough definition in my narrative to create cinematic scenes with a particular emotional charge and characters with persistent and sensible motivations...while simultaneously offering the player complete agency over their interpretations of that narrative.

Conversely, there's no way to offer a narrative that's completely open to player interpretation and agency...and also establishes the characters, pacing, and arc that would be defined enough to include a nuanced, cinematic cutscene. Attempting to do so would invariably "load" meaning onto the narrative for the sake of the scene's direction, and that would inherently shade and flavor everything that the player understood.

The two approaches to storytelling are mutually exclusive. The more I push on one side of the scale, the lighter the other side becomes.

My thoughts, remember -- I am not speaking for the developers, nor in my capacity as a moderator:
I argue that all of CDPR's games are heavily driven by strong, established narrative. Their games are as much watching a good film as they are "role-playing" personal tweaks to the player characters clearly established for me. (I mean, I actively dislike card games, but I still moved through Thronebreaker's story. They created a narrative that completely absorbed me for a card game.) I think it's fair to call established, narrative arcs a salient feature in CDPR's games, and very much a focus of their chosen approach.

Thus, the same applies to Cyberpunk. This is not a focused, linear main quest surrounded by a cloud of loosely connected side quests whose motivations are left up to the player (like a Beth title). The player in CP2077 is very much, "V". Your backstory is very much a rascal that tried to make it big with Jackie on the streets of Night City. Your motivation is very much chasing the dream of immortality -- consciously and actively trying to make it to the "big leagues" and have your names live forever as Night City legends. The player cannot "disregard" this; that invalidates the established narrative for "V" as s/he is clearly defined. The player needs to accept and pursue this the same way that they need to accept the role, purpose, and motivations of Geralt of Rivia in The Witcher. That's a reality that can't be ignored.

However, unlike The Witcher, CP2077 opens up and allows a @#$%!load of interpretation as to where things go once the job goes south, Jackie is killed, the chip is installed, Johnny appears, and you learn that your days are numbered. What does the player do there? What motivations are driving them now? Do they continue in the pursuit of becoming a legend, perhaps to honor Jackie's sacrifice? Do they turn their backs on the "big leagues", realizing them to be empty paths leading nowhere? Do they lash out at fate and the state of the world at large, understanding completely where Johnny is coming from and setting out to cause as much damage as they can to make an impression and leave their mark?

^All of that (and more) is open interpretation for what motivates V along the path. Each of the endings echoes a sort of resolution to these ideas. And these are ideas that are intrinsically wound into the narrative progression of the story (very cinematically). Hence, there are attempts at interpretation that will not work, and yes, this comes at the expense of player agency. However, it is simultaneously necessary to create those frames for the sake of cinematic narrative structure and resolution.

Hence-hence, disliking this is not a matter of "the endings are bogus". It's that, "I didn't like the story, especially the ending." The story arc -- as far as I've seen on my playthrough as well as what I've watched and read about online -- are extremely well-presented, nuanced, and full of quality metaphor and symbolism. Each ending presents a solid resolution to the concept of V coming to terms with his/her situation based upon the events leading up to that point.

Imagining things that didn't occur or motivations that aren't presented (because that's the style of role-playing I may prefer) is invalid interpretation of CP2077's narrative. That's more of a criticism of the game's chosen approach, not its narrative. This is a story-driven game. Open ended, but within a clearly defined, narrative framework.

Concluding, the "head of the Afterlife" ending isn't designed to present you with your desired endgame situation based on player agency alone -- it's designed to reflect the thematic resolution to the narrative presented as it applies to your interaction with the gameworld (...which is further defined by motivations presented through the same narrative -- not motivations we imagine in our minds, based on imagination, because we think so, and we want it to be that way. That would be a very different approach to designing and developing an RPG -- ones like Mount and Blade...or Kenshi...or Valheim.)
 
Last edited:
My thoughts, remember -- I am not speaking for the developers, nor in my capacity as a moderator:
I argue that all of CDPR's games are heavily driven by strong, established narrative. Their games are as much watching a good film as they are "role-playing" personal tweaks to the player characters clearly established for me. (I mean, I actively dislike card games, but I still moved through Thronebreaker's story. They created a narrative that completely absorbed me for a card game.) I think it's fair to call established, narrative arcs a salient feature in CDPR's games, and very much a focus of their chosen approach.
Haven't played a CDPR game before this one and it was advertised as an RPG where you create V. Should've dug deeper and assumed all their games would be the same, I guess.
Thus, the same applies to Cyberpunk. This is not a focused, linear main quest surrounded by a cloud of loosely connected side quests whose motivations are left up to the player (like a Beth title). The player in CP2077 is very much, "V". Your backstory is very much a rascal that tried to make it big with Jackie on the streets of Night City. Your motivation is very much chasing the dream of immortality -- consciously and actively trying to make it to the "big leagues" and have your names live forever as Night City legends. The player cannot "disregard" this; that invalidates the established narrative for "V" as s/he is clearly defined. The player needs to accept and pursue this the same way that they need to accept the role, purpose, and motivations of Geralt of Rivia in The Witcher. That's a reality that can't be ignored.
No, V's backstory is intentionally vague and only colored by one of three starting situations you can choose from to massage V into the story -- being on the streets with Jackie is not a backstory, it's the connective tissue to give V a reason to be in the game. Even in RPGs with a character with no definition, like FO:NV, has to have some concessions just to get the game off the ground.

V is fundamentally different from Geralt. You choose V's background, gender, and entire physical appearance. V's background unrelated to the lifepath choice before the game started is almost never referenced, and never in an extremely meaningful way (the only one I can think of is when V tells River about the guys who've hit on her). V mentions being a legend a couple times, but the only thing pushing the story itself forward is survival. Very little of V's motivations are hard defined.

Hence-hence, disliking this is not a matter of "the endings are bogus". It's that, "I didn't like the story, especially the ending." The story arc -- as far as I've seen on my playthrough as well as what I've watched and read about online -- are extremely well-presented, nuanced, and full of quality metaphor and symbolism. Each ending presents a solid resolution to the concept of V coming to terms with his/her situation based upon the events leading up to that point.

Imagining things that didn't occur or motivations that aren't presented (because that's the style of role-playing I may prefer) is invalid interpretation of CP2077's narrative. That's more of a criticism of the game's chosen approach, not its narrative. This is a story-driven game. Open ended, but within a clearly defined, narrative framework.

Concluding, the "head of the Afterlife" ending isn't designed to present you with your desired endgame situation based on player agency alone -- it's designed to reflect the thematic resolution to the narrative presented as it applies to your interaction with the gameworld (...which is further defined by motivations presented through the same narrative -- not motivations we imagine in our minds, based on imagination, because we think so, and we want it to be that way. That would be a very different approach to designing and developing an RPG -- ones like Mount and Blade...or Kenshi...or Valheim.)
Most people's playthroughs follow the obvious and hamfisted path, so I'm not surprised most people's are coherent. The problem comes back to what you said at the top of your post: they aren't pushing down on one scale at the expense of the other, they've slammed the hammer down on both and broken the whole damn contraption right at the end. It's obviously presented as a more open RPG in some aspects, like character creation and the relative lack of in-game hard defined character development for V, but at the same time they expect you to find something satisfying about the ridiculous moralizing that the ends offer. It all looks like it works smoothly if you've played the game exactly the way they anticipated, even though they allow you to play it other ways that stay coherent right up until the end.

You are essentially arguing that it's wrong to be attached to the character that you created and molded because the game is actually about it's "quality themes and symbolism". If that's what they wanted to convey, they should've made the protagonist Jack Cyberpunk and given the player as much agency as the Witcher. Whatever heavy handed "Night City bad" theme they wanted to hammer home with the endings falls flat because I don't care. But it's not just a shortcoming on my part, I don't care BECAUSE they've made a game where I can create and, to some extent, define a character such that this character is now what I care about in the game. I've gotten all of their symbolism out of "Wow! Real water for sale!" billboards that I don't need my character to be forced to side with the noble savages in order to understand that NC might not be the happiest place in the world.

In short: I fundamentally disagree with the idea that V is some predefined character whose motivations we need to align with instead of create. There are plenty of things in the game that allow you to make V your own in such a way that doesn't exist for a character like Geralt.
 
I fundamentally disagree with the idea that V is some predefined character whose motivations we need to align with instead of create. There are plenty of things in the game that allow you to make V your own in such a way that doesn't exist for a character like Geralt.
She's not strictly predefined but neither is she a blank slate. It's something in between. A range of choices within a general direction that is set.
 
Last edited:
She's not strictly predefined but neither is she a blank slate. It's something in between. A range of choices within a general direction that is set.
"Not a blank slate" is trivially true for any game with a narrative. If there's a sliding scale from "blank slate" to "predefined" in games with narratives, where a Bethesda game protagonist is "blank slate" and Joel from TLOU is "predefined", V is faaaar closer to the former.
 
Haven't played a CDPR game before this one and it was advertised as an RPG where you create V. Should've dug deeper and assumed all their games would be the same, I guess.

Every studio has their style. Not everyone likes every studio's approach. Nothing much left to say about that part; it's take take it or leave it, as you like, in the end.


No, V's backstory is intentionally vague and only colored by one of three starting situations you can choose from to massage V into the story -- being on the streets with Jackie is not a backstory, it's the connective tissue to give V a reason to be in the game. Even in RPGs with a character with no definition, like FO:NV, has to have some concessions just to get the game off the ground.

V is fundamentally different from Geralt. You choose V's background, gender, and entire physical appearance. V's background unrelated to the lifepath choice before the game started is almost never referenced, and never in an extremely meaningful way (the only one I can think of is when V tells River about the guys who've hit on her). V mentions being a legend a couple times, but the only thing pushing the story itself forward is survival. Very little of V's motivations are hard defined.

Yes and no. V is not completely defined, as Geralt is in The Witcher, but neither is V a blank slate to be filled in entirely based on player agency, like a Bethesda title. V is more like Cdr. Sheperd: you are your chosen backstory, plus a commander in the Terran Alliance Military who is an officer on the Normandy and will face the challenges presented by that narrative as they are presented for the motivations and reasons that they are presented with. No getting away from that part. It is not a "sandbox" RPG. It is a narrative RPG. Hence, trying to pretend that my Cdr. Sheperd was actually a pacifist that was forced into the military through manipulation and should now not be forced to fight during combat sequences...isn't going to work. Sorry if that's what someone was expecting, but that's not how the game was designed. (And we're right back to, "Take it, or leave it -- what's your pleasure?") That's not a flaw with the design -- it's a matter of subjective preference in the player.

Likewise, Cyberpunk clearly establishes that regardless of the chosen backstory, V and Jackie were climbing the lowest power ladders of Night City with a definitive goal. So V is an aspiring brave that's actively pursuing the goal of "making it to the big leagues" and "living forever" ( -- just like Cdr. Sheperd is an Alliance Military officer on board the Normandy with a mission whether they want it or not --) and the story goes from there.

At that point, you're right! Very few of V's actions are hard-defined. A lot is open to interpretation. But they all fall within the framework of the classic "immortality" theme. It's totally possible for people to interpret that differently and validly...

...while also being possible for people to lose focus of the theme altogether, get lost in the "semantics" of the non-linear, non-central parts of the larger game mechanics, and begin interpreting things that are invalidated by the narrative. Or, they might simply miss a detail, not recognize a detail, or just misunderstand what the narrative was clearly presenting. (That's not calling anyone out for a mistake like that. I do it all the time when I'm tired or distracted while playing a game.)

I'll agree that the some of the Lifepath choices could probably be expanded on. I chose Nomad, and I find the responses are very satisfying. And I think Nomad options pop up more often toward the later stages of the game, whereas Street Kid seems to be focused almost exclusively on the earlier stages. Never played Corpo past the intro section, so I can't speak to that. But the Lifepath choices do not negate the pathways and interpretations that V is able to engage in throughout all of the other options that are presented, the way it affects relationships with other NPCs, and the pathways and scenes we receive throughout the rest of the game (Lifepaths aside).


Most people's playthroughs follow the obvious and hamfisted path, so I'm not surprised most people's are coherent. The problem comes back to what you said at the top of your post: they aren't pushing down on one scale at the expense of the other, they've slammed the hammer down on both and broken the whole damn contraption right at the end. It's obviously presented as a more open RPG in some aspects, like character creation and the relative lack of in-game hard defined character development for V, but at the same time they expect you to find something satisfying about the ridiculous moralizing that the ends offer. It all looks like it works smoothly if you've played the game exactly the way they anticipated, even though they allow you to play it other ways that stay coherent right up until the end.

You are essentially arguing that it's wrong to be attached to the character that you created and molded because the game is actually about it's "quality themes and symbolism". If that's what they wanted to convey, they should've made the protagonist Jack Cyberpunk and given the player as much agency as the Witcher. Whatever heavy handed "Night City bad" theme they wanted to hammer home with the endings falls flat because I don't care. But it's not just a shortcoming on my part, I don't care BECAUSE they've made a game where I can create and, to some extent, define a character such that this character is now what I care about in the game. I've gotten all of their symbolism out of "Wow! Real water for sale!" billboards that I don't need my character to be forced to side with the noble savages in order to understand that NC might not be the happiest place in the world.

In short: I fundamentally disagree with the idea that V is some predefined character whose motivations we need to align with instead of create. There are plenty of things in the game that allow you to make V your own in such a way that doesn't exist for a character like Geralt.

Hopefully, it's now clearer that I do not mean V is pre-defined the way Geralt is, or Cloud Strife, or protagonists from the Assassin's Creed series, or GTA series, etc. I mean there is a necessary narrative framework and clearly defined theme that is established. Setting those elements aside because we want to "imagine" some other meaning won't work here, as the definition is absolutely required for the narrative arcs and the cinematic presentation of the game.

If I canceled cinematics -- all of the dialogue scenes with scripted blocking and voice work -- I suddenly blow the lid off what can be insinuated through the gameplay and left wholly up to player interpretation. I can allow for many more branches through the game with a wider range of interesting scenarios. But on that same coin, I can't create a strong narrative with a lot of emotionally charged nuance and dramatic action. I'll have to keep story elements to a minimum and focus on gameplay mechanics to keep players invested. They'll need to fill in the gaps on their own.

For all the players shaking their heads about not having enough choice and the game robbing people of options and freedom, there are just as many players that will facepalm because the game is too nebulous and open-ended, with no clearly defined goals or any clue about what they're supposed to be doing.

Every balance will always exist somewhere in between. The people that like a particular balance will praise it. The people that dislike it will criticize it. If we shift the balance, the arguments will shift along with it. Games like TW3, with extremely widespread and arguably universal appeal, will be few and far between. And oftentimes, it's just luck. Things came together just so, for a wide audience that simply happened to be looking for exactly that type of thing, and it arrived at the perfect moment.

If I tried to release TW3 in 1985, it would have been instantly banned pretty much around the globe for outrageous levels of violence and indecent sexuality. CDPR would probably have landed in court. In 2045, we'll be listening to young generations complaining about how lame the graphics are and how clunky and inaccessible the gameplay is...not to mention the story, which is sooo campy and cringey.

For CP2077, it's a fantastic, narrative romp through a beautifully visualized world and a dark, gritty story which tends to end on a bittersweet-to-tragic note (...like pretty much all Cyberpunk-themed stories. That's why Blade Runner, Ghost in the Shell, Judge Dredd, and The Matrix are so well loved, right? All the happy endings.)
 
Last edited:
Haven't played a CDPR game before this one and it was advertised as an RPG where you create V. Should've dug deeper and assumed all their games would be the same, I guess.

No, V's backstory is intentionally vague and only colored by one of three starting situations you can choose from to massage V into the story -- being on the streets with Jackie is not a backstory, it's the connective tissue to give V a reason to be in the game. Even in RPGs with a character with no definition, like FO:NV, has to have some concessions just to get the game off the ground.

V is fundamentally different from Geralt. You choose V's background, gender, and entire physical appearance. V's background unrelated to the lifepath choice before the game started is almost never referenced, and never in an extremely meaningful way (the only one I can think of is when V tells River about the guys who've hit on her). V mentions being a legend a couple times, but the only thing pushing the story itself forward is survival. Very little of V's motivations are hard defined.


Most people's playthroughs follow the obvious and hamfisted path, so I'm not surprised most people's are coherent. The problem comes back to what you said at the top of your post: they aren't pushing down on one scale at the expense of the other, they've slammed the hammer down on both and broken the whole damn contraption right at the end. It's obviously presented as a more open RPG in some aspects, like character creation and the relative lack of in-game hard defined character development for V, but at the same time they expect you to find something satisfying about the ridiculous moralizing that the ends offer. It all looks like it works smoothly if you've played the game exactly the way they anticipated, even though they allow you to play it other ways that stay coherent right up until the end.

You are essentially arguing that it's wrong to be attached to the character that you created and molded because the game is actually about it's "quality themes and symbolism". If that's what they wanted to convey, they should've made the protagonist Jack Cyberpunk and given the player as much agency as the Witcher. Whatever heavy handed "Night City bad" theme they wanted to hammer home with the endings falls flat because I don't care. But it's not just a shortcoming on my part, I don't care BECAUSE they've made a game where I can create and, to some extent, define a character such that this character is now what I care about in the game. I've gotten all of their symbolism out of "Wow! Real water for sale!" billboards that I don't need my character to be forced to side with the noble savages in order to understand that NC might not be the happiest place in the world.

In short: I fundamentally disagree with the idea that V is some predefined character whose motivations we need to align with instead of create. There are plenty of things in the game that allow you to make V your own in such a way that doesn't exist for a character like Geralt.

I agree that V is actually mostly and purposefully undefined. As you say the main story is mostly just a skeleton, and its mostly up to the player to define the journey.

The endings do not really define V's self, the more define V's situation. That said, there are limits. Some aspects of Vs life are limited. And the endings specifically are most likely designed to put V in a specific situation they can follow up on.

As much as you hate the sun, V does not explicitly choose to push anyone away. The LI's are having their own insecurities, and blaming V(if you choose those options). The other people regard V warmly in messages. It is unsaid if V wanted to be leader of afterlife, or if thats what they had to do for the best chance at survival. its still very open who V is, what is not, is the situation they are in.
 
If there's a sliding scale from "blank slate" to "predefined" in games with narratives, where a Bethesda game protagonist is "blank slate" and Joel from TLOU is "predefined", V is faaaar closer to the former.
We'll agree to disagree. I think it's pretty close to in the middle. A lot of V's main arc is set until the final act. The dialogue has a lot of flavor, and how missions are accomplished varies, but what V actually does to progress the story is fairly set.

EDIT: On the spectrum of fixed vs non-fixed I'd say it's something akin to Mass Effect.
 
Last edited:
We'll agree to disagree. I think it's pretty close to in the middle. A lot of V's main arc is set until the final act. The dialogue has a lot of flavor, and how missions are accomplished varies, but what V does to progress the story is fairly set.

ehh, the main arc is actually only the bones of Vs story. Main arc alone leads to V going crazy in space with no friends and no purpose. The endings and overall story are mostly based on what V chooses to do outside of the main arc.
 
V is fundamentally different from Geralt. You choose V's background, gender, and entire physical appearance. V's background unrelated to the lifepath choice before the game started is almost never referenced, and never in an extremely meaningful way (the only one I can think of is when V tells River about the guys who've hit on her). V mentions being a legend a couple times, but the only thing pushing the story itself forward is survival. Very little of V's motivations are hard defined.


Most people's playthroughs follow the obvious and hamfisted path, so I'm not surprised most people's are coherent. The problem comes back to what you said at the top of your post: they aren't pushing down on one scale at the expense of the other, they've slammed the hammer down on both and broken the whole damn contraption right at the end. It's obviously presented as a more open RPG in some aspects, like character creation and the relative lack of in-game hard defined character development for V, but at the same time they expect you to find something satisfying about the ridiculous moralizing that the ends offer. It all looks like it works smoothly if you've played the game exactly the way they anticipated, even though they allow you to play it other ways that stay coherent right up until the end.

You are essentially arguing that it's wrong to be attached to the character that you created and molded because the game is actually about it's "quality themes and symbolism". If that's what they wanted to convey, they should've made the protagonist Jack Cyberpunk and given the player as much agency as the Witcher. Whatever heavy handed "Night City bad" theme they wanted to hammer home with the endings falls flat because I don't care. But it's not just a shortcoming on my part, I don't care BECAUSE they've made a game where I can create and, to some extent, define a character such that this character is now what I care about in the game. I've gotten all of their symbolism out of "Wow! Real water for sale!" billboards that I don't need my character to be forced to side with the noble savages in order to understand that NC might not be the happiest place in the world.

In short: I fundamentally disagree with the idea that V is some predefined character whose motivations we need to align with instead of create. There are plenty of things in the game that allow you to make V your own in such a way that doesn't exist for a character like Geralt.

I'd argue even a character such as Geralt(who has a lot more pre-defined characterisation) isn't rewritten as a character based on how to accomplish a quest, which is what happens at the end of Cyberpunk. So in TW3 i have more control over the motivation of the character at the end than a game which sets up the notion of V as my character for the majority of the game.
 
Every studio has their style. Not everyone likes every studio's approach. Nothing much left to say about that part; it's take take it or leave it, as you like, in the end.




Yes and no. V is not completely defined, as Geralt is in The Witcher, but neither is V a blank slate to be filled in entirely based on player agency, like a Bethesda title. V is more like Cdr. Sheperd: you are your chosen backstory, plus a commander in the Terran Alliance Military who is an officer on the Normandy and will face the challenges presented by that narrative as they are presented for the motivations and reasons that they are presented with. No getting away from that part. It is not a "sandbox" RPG. It is a narrative RPG. Hence, trying to pretend that my Cdr. Sheperd was actually a pacifist that was forced into the military through manipulation and should now not be forced to fight during combat sequences...isn't going to work. Sorry if that's what someone was expecting, but that's not how the game was designed. (And we're right back to, "Take it, or leave it -- what's your pleasure?") That's not a flaw with the design -- it's a matter of subjective preference in the player.

Likewise, Cyberpunk clearly establishes that regardless of the chosen backstory, V and Jackie were climbing the lowest power ladders of Night City with a definitive goal. So V is an aspiring brave that's actively pursuing the goal of "making it to the big leagues" and "living forever" ( -- just like Cdr. Sheperd is an Alliance Military officer on board the Normandy with a mission whether they want it or not --) and the story goes from there.

At that point, you're right! Very few of V's actions are hard-defined. A lot is open to interpretation. But they all fall within the framework of the classic "immortality" theme. It's totally possible for people to interpret that differently and validly...

...while also being possible for people to lose focus of the theme altogether, get lost in the "semantics" of the non-linear, non-central parts of the larger game mechanics, and begin interpreting things that are invalidated by the narrative. Or, they might simply miss a detail, not recognize a detail, or just misunderstand what the narrative was clearly presenting. (That's not calling anyone out for a mistake like that. I do it all the time when I'm tired or distracted while playing a game.)

I'll agree that the some of the Lifepath choices could probably be expanded on. I chose Nomad, and I find the responses are very satisfying. And I think Nomad options pop up more often toward the later stages of the game, whereas Street Kid seems to be focused almost exclusively on the earlier stages. Never played Corpo past the intro section, so I can't speak to that. But the Lifepath choices do not negate the pathways and interpretations that V is able to engage in throughout all of the other options that are presented, the way it affects relationships with other NPCs, and the pathways and scenes we receive throughout the rest of the game (Lifepaths aside).




Hopefully, it's now clearer that I do not mean V is pre-defined the way Geralt is, or Cloud Strife, or protagonists from the Assassin's Creed series, or GTA series, etc. I mean there is a necessary narrative framework and clearly defined theme that is established. Setting those elements aside because we want to "imagine" some other meaning won't work here, as the definition is absolutely required for the narrative arcs and the cinematic presentation of the game.

If I canceled cinematics -- all of the dialogue scenes with scripted blocking and voice work -- I suddenly blow the lid off what can be insinuated through the gameplay and left wholly up to player interpretation. I can allow for many more branches through the game with a wider range of interesting scenarios. But on that same coin, I can't create a strong narrative with a lot of emotionally charged nuance and dramatic action. I'll have to keep story elements to a minimum and focus on gameplay mechanics to keep players invested. They'll need to fill in the gaps on their own.

For all the players shaking their heads about not having enough choice and the game robbing people of options and freedom, there are just as many players that will facepalm because the game is too nebulous and open-ended, with no clearly defined goals or any clue about what they're supposed to be doing.

Every balance will always exist somewhere in between. The people that like a particular balance will praise it. The people that dislike it will criticize it. If we shift the balance, the arguments will shift along with it. Games like TW3, with extremely widespread and arguably universal appeal, will be few and far between. And oftentimes, it's just luck. Things came together just so, for a wide audience that simply happened to be looking for exactly that type of thing, and it arrived at the perfect moment.

If I tried to release TW3 in 1985, it would have been instantly banned pretty much around the globe for outrageous levels of violence and indecent sexuality. CDPR would probably have landed in court. In 2045, we'll be listening to young generations complaining about how lame the graphics are and how clunky and inaccessible the gameplay is...not to mention the story, which is sooo campy and cringey.
I mean, I just outright disagree that the themes of V wanting to rise to the top and be "immortal" are so front and center that they override the obvious RPG elements to the point that I should care about those instead of the character I create. As I've said before, if they wanted the themes to be so front and center, they shouldn't have let me even be able to go down this road at all. I played the game consistently, without "imagining" my character to be some pacifist or otherwise something unreasonable to conform with the game, and was able to do so right up until the endings where the game suddenly decides all it cares about are driving home it's overly moralizing themes rather than delivering a fitting conclusion for an RPG protagonist.

For CP2077, it's a fantastic, narrative romp through a beautifully visualized world and a dark, gritty story which tends to end on a bittersweet-to-tragic note (...like pretty much all Cyberpunk-themed stories. That's why Blade Runner, Ghost in the Shell, Judge Dredd, and The Matrix are so well loved, right? All the happy endings.)
There is no sweetness in any of the endings, only bitter failure. I'm judging the endings on the basis that it's an RPG rather than assuming the type of story I'm going to get based on the setting.

"When I wrote Cyberpunk back in the day, the idea was to show a dark mirror of the world we have been shaping since the 1980s. It was a warning, yes, but I also made all of you the heroes of this dystopian world. You weren’t there to be ground underfoot like Rick Deckard, or exploited and enslaved like Roy Batty. You were there to grab the wheel, steal the power, break the strangleholds of the corrupt and gun down the thugs they sent to crush you." - Mike Pondsmith

I'm tired of discussing whether Cyberpunk as a genre must be grimdark misery so I'm leaving this point at that.
 
Main arc alone leads to V going crazy in space with no friends and no purpose. The endings and overall story are mostly based on what V chooses to do outside of the main arc.
I would also count the major side questlines the impact the ending as within the main arc. They're not mandatory, but they feed into the main narrative.
 
I mean, I just outright disagree that the themes of V wanting to rise to the top and be "immortal" are so front and center that they override the obvious RPG elements to the point that I should care about those instead of the character I create. As I've said before, if they wanted the themes to be so front and center, they shouldn't have let me even be able to go down this road at all. I played the game consistently, without "imagining" my character to be some pacifist or otherwise something unreasonable to conform with the game, and was able to do so right up until the endings where the game suddenly decides all it cares about are driving home it's overly moralizing themes rather than delivering a fitting conclusion for an RPG protagonist.

I outright disagree with that assessment. Let's look at what the game delivers, regardless of player choice:

  1. V takes the initial gig with Jackie to start bettering his/her situation in life.
  2. What was the whole montage scene about at the beginning if not to show V and Jackie taking risks, learning the streets, and starting to become a force to be reckoned with?
  3. Why do they actively pursue fixers in the hopes of getting better and better gigs?
  4. What's the point of taking the big risk/reward gig with Dex?
  5. Why is there so much dialogue surrounding the Afterlife, the details about getting a drink named after you, or the prestige and excitement of seeing Rogue in the flesh?
  6. What about the repeated, ongoing dialogue about making it to the "big leagues" if it's not their goal?
  7. What about V's potential reactions to Jackie getting too pumped about the mission when they're taking the Delamain to hotel?
  8. What about V's reaction to Jackie's death, and the "...see you in the big leagues..." comment at the end?
  9. Most significantly -- if V did not support that ideal, why would s/he stay with Jackie throughout the years? Diving into ever deeper water with him...listening to him carry on about the "big leagues"...risking life and limb on a regular basis...but V truly feels differently and was privately and secretly pursuing other goals?
I would challenge the narrative validity of any argument that V was not actively pursuing the idea of the "big leagues", fame, glory, reputation, and "immortality" among the names that would be remembered as legendary throughout Night City. They could easily have made money and a comfy living working as nothing but thugs, or guards, or small-time fixers themselves. They didn't. V intentionally and passionately sought out better opportunities with Jackie as edgerunners, while directly vocalizing his/her intentions, reasoning, and goals numerous times throughout the game. V can express a tamer, less gung ho attitude toward achieving that goal than Jackie...but there are exactly zero dialogue options that say, "I don't believe in what we're doing, Jackie. I don't want fame and immortality."

^ That's part of the establishment of the characters, which is handled in rather extreme detail and clarity throughout the entire opening act of the game: from the intro scene, to V making Johnny's acquaintance for the first time. That's all part of the establishment. Very, very easy, I think, to not be following along with all of that since there's nothing preventing the player from doing all sorts of other stuff...for pretty much whatever reasons they can imagine. Extremely easy to lose track of or forget what the game has clearly, directly established.

That is arguably a true flaw with the design. It creates the illusion of being a total sandbox a little too strongly, when in fact, it's a far more established narrative with whole bunches of sandbox side-content. But there's not enough done, perhaps, during the early sequences especially, to progress the narrative so that the player receives the establishing details in a fluently paced way. As such, players may lose sight of these details over the course of their playthrough. They may superimpose what they want things to mean over what actually happened, and retroactively redefine (whether intentionally or unintentionally) "who V is" in their own minds...even though those desires and ideas directly conflict with the clearly established narrative elements.

So to say that all of those elements somehow "don't matter" is just not supportable. I can provide overwhelming evidence of V being a character that was sold on the pursuit of fame, wealth, and immortality. This can very much evolve or change once the game passes the heist mission -- but nothing will remove V from the fate of having started down that path. The theme of immortality, the reality of what it can mean, and the human cost it inherently exacts is the central spine of the dramatic action of the narrative. It can be explored and interpreted a number of different ways, but there's no way to simply toss that aside and pretend the game is actually about something else. The narrative will keep coming back to pop that imagination bubble.

As far as over-moralizing the endings...I can see that...but I'll disagree. It's a heady game. I think it's doing a smash-up job of letting the player know, no matter which path they choose at the end:

"And they did NOT live happily ever after..."

Or, using another classic literary device: Once you grab the wheel of fortune and ride to the top...the wheel does not simply stop turning. There's only one place to go.
 
Last edited:
I outright disagree with that assessment. Let's look at what the game delivers, regardless of player choice:

  1. V takes the initial gig with Jackie to start bettering his/her situation in life.
  2. What was the whole montage scene about at the beginning if not to show V and Jackie taking risks, learning the streets, and starting to become a force to be reckoned with?
  3. Why do they actively pursue fixers in the hopes of getting better and better gigs?
  4. What's the point of taking the big risk/reward gig with Dex?
Yes, no matter what position you take in the game, V is a merc. I'm not claiming V is a pure blank slate. This is one of the story things.
5.Why is there so much dialogue surrounding the Afterlife, the details about getting a drink named after you, or the prestige and excitement of seeing Rogue in the flesh?
"So much dialogue"? The drink is an Act 1 thing that Jackie rambles about and you can go back to optionally later. Otherwise, the Rogue and Afterlife are important because you're a merc. I really think you're hung up on this idea you have that I must want to be able to completely define everything about V.
6. What about the repeated, ongoing dialogue about making it to the "big leagues" if it's not their goal?

Big jobs are going to be the goal of a merc, for prestige or otherwise.
7. What about V's potential reactions to Jackie getting too pumped about the mission when they're taking the Delamain to hotel?
POTENTIAL reactions. Now you're on my side.
  1. What about V's reaction to Jackie's death, and the "...see you in the big leagues..." comment at the end?
Most of the dialogue about "making it" comes from Jackie. It's honoring his memory in a way fitting for him.
  1. Most significantly -- if V did not support that ideal, why would s/he stay with Jackie throughout the years? Diving into ever deeper water with him...listening to him carry on about the "big leagues"...risking life and limb on a regular basis...but V truly feels differently and was privately and secretly pursuing other goals?
It wasn't years, it was a handful of months. The best friend that rambles about the big leagues is practically a trope. I think we've gotten away from the discussion because I'm not entirely sure what you're trying to establish anymore. That one of V's predefined traits is being a merc? Ok. I don't think that affects anything I've said.
I would challenge the narrative validity of any argument that V was not actively pursuing the idea of the "big leagues", fame, glory, reputation, and "immortality" among the names that would be remembered as legendary throughout Night City. They could easily have made money and a comfy living working as nothing but thugs, or guards, or small-time fixers themselves. They didn't. V intentionally and passionately sought out better opportunities with Jackie as edgerunners, while directly vocalizing his/her intentions, reasoning, and goals numerous times throughout the game. V can express a tamer, less gung ho attitude toward achieving that goal than Jackie...but there are exactly zero dialogue options that say, "I don't believe in what we're doing, Jackie. I don't want fame and immortality."
This is largely Act 1 fare that dies with Jackie. After this, you can play almost the entire game only expressing the sentiment that you just want to save yourself.
That is arguably a true flaw with the design. It creates the illusion of being a total sandbox a little too strongly, when in fact, it's a far more established narrative with whole bunches of sandbox side-content. But there's not enough done, perhaps, during the early sequences especially, to progress the narrative so that the player receives the establishing details in a fluently paced way. As such, players may lose sight of these details over the course of their playthrough. They may superimpose what they want things to mean over what actually happened, and retroactively redefine (whether intentionally or unintentionally) "who V is" in their own minds...even though those desires and ideas directly conflict with the clearly established narrative elements.
This is the closest we've gotten to agreeing, but I'd go the other way. It's too far up it's own ass with it's themes in the endings that it throws away any characterization the game lets you do in pursuit of the way they wanted the game to end. I'd actually like this game more if the endings were some stupid vague Fallout slideshow.
As far as over-moralizing the endings...I can see that...but I'll disagree. It's a heady game. I think it's doing a smash-up job of letting the player know, no matter which path they choose at the end:

"And they did NOT live happily ever after..."
I don't know where you're getting "heady" from. The finale hits you with an "oops we actually can't save you lol" anticlimax with the follow-up conclusion that "you're a bad person because you chose arasaka/sun and you're going to die soon with that in mind" or "you're a good person because you chose the noble savages and you're going to die soon with that in mind". There is nothing moving or spectacular about these endings. They just tell you that you're going to die and that your V spent the rest of their life based on who you decided to help at the end.

A dark depressing ending doesn't make it good, as so many people seem to think.
Post automatically merged:

V can express a tamer, less gung ho attitude toward achieving that goal than Jackie...but there are exactly zero dialogue options that say, "I don't believe in what we're doing, Jackie. I don't want fame and immortality."
Oh! You actually can do this, by the way. I don't remember the exact quote, but in the Delamain after Jackie is shot, you can yell at him that this is his fault for wanting to do big league shit.
 
Last edited:
Top Bottom