[SPOILERS] Takemura..

[jkmaybe]

Alright, I know there are a few threads in this but the logic some folks have in answering the question seems odd and is generally missing some key information. So, I'm gonna take a stab at explaining my personal confusion on how Takemura does a 180 and how it fits into the story.

I'm going to go through each of the key events and then provide some suggestions on what it could be missing. Assume in each of these that the others haven't happened. It's an OR thing not an AND thing, if you know what I mean. Here goes:



1. Takemura sees Saburo slain, Yorinobu is the only one in the area, Yori says it was poison, Takemura doesn't buy it.

Potentially missing storytelling point:​

Takemura could have scanned Saburo while talking with Yorinobu, learning that the cause of death was strangling. Combine that with spotting the break in the glass on the pillar and Saburo's blood there. We see V's scanners able to grasp these kinds of fine details relatively easily in a few quests. This could come up later in the story to explain how Takemura ultimately figured out this piece of the puzzle. Not the perfect spot, but it'd be something.​

2. Takemura finds V through Dex DeShawn in the Land Fill, Kills Dex, Calls Yorinobu, Places V in Car, Tells him/her he/she smells like shit.

Potentially missing storytelling point:​

​

Takemura could have jacked into V to learn what was going on, similar to Meredith Stout's bodyguard, thus divining the missing information. This could have been confirmed or touched on if we didn't see it directly at some other point prior to them meeting at Tom's Diner. ​

​

3. Takemura and V are attacked by Saka Ninjas (presumably sent by Yorinobu). These aren't Maelstrom guys. They're not Maelstrom. Quit saying they're Maelstrom. If you have a Corpo background, V confirms this. They're wearing Arasaka stuff. They don't have the same implants. They literally say "Traitor" over and over. They're not Maelstrom. Stop it.

Potentially missing storytelling point:​

​

This is the moment where Takemura appears to have done his 180. The player goes to sleep thinking the loyal Takemura is about to take us to Arasaka, and wakes up to Arasaka trying to kill them both, calling Takemura a Traitor, and there's no explanation. Sometimes you don't need an explanation. This time, I think we do. While it does go a ways to show that Yorinobu is trying to kill them both and is thus now a bad guy from Takemura's point of view, it doesn't explain how Takemura knows that V saw it and that V is a witness to it.​

​

After the last agent is killed, V could've told Takemura that he / she did not kill Saburo, and that it was Yorinobu. Takemura could accept that at face value and decide that, combined with the sudden attack, they should go to a ripperdoc and seek refuge and investigate. This would be the perfect spot to place this information in my opinion -- the convincing doesn't need to be done by V, it's already done by the 'Saka ninjas, and it would link all of the other evidence we can reasonably assume Takemura has based on the story elements. Evidence like knowing V was involved, that Dex was involved, that Yorinobu is lying, and that Yorinobu is trying to kill them both. This one simple statement here could have fixed the entire mix up in the future.​

​

4. Takemura and V go to Vik's and some amount of time has passed before V and Vik have 'the talk'.

Potentially missing storytelling point:​

​

Takemura could have had a bedside chat with V discussing Saburo briefly, while he/she is in and out. Or, alternatively, could have worked with Vik to discover what had happened at Konpeki Plaza. This could have either been something the player sees or something that is explained by Vik or Takemura later. Not as seamless as #3 but still pretty good.​

​

5. Takemura and V meet at Tom's Diner and discuss a way forward.

It is during these conversations when Takemura says something like "[...] You will tell them what you told me about Saburo-sama's death [...]" when discussing taking the information of Saburo's real killer to the Arasaka board. This is the main sticking point for me. Without any of the above missing storytelling points being met, there's no point in time when the player witnesses Takemura acquiring the information that Yorinobu is Saburo's killer and that V is a witness. He may infer it. He may suspect it. He may draw that conclusion based on external sources. But we never see any evidence of any of that. We have to assume that he's assuming this.​

​

Yet, all further discussions are from the perspective that V and Takemura DID have this conversation, where they both are on the same page about what actually happened at Konpeki, down to every detail involving Saburo and V's role in it.​

​

This is the big plot point that is missing.​

​

Without that plot point being explained, we are making a lot of assumptions to fill in the gaps. We're assuming that Yorinobu discovered V's involvement (maybe the SID chip scan at the beginning, maybe cameras, maybe something else, who knows?) . We're assuming that Yorinobu and Takemura had some kind of conversation about V and his/her involvement. We're assuming that Takemura made the connection that Yorinobu is lying, that he discovered that Yori's actually the killer, and that V must have witnessed it.​

​

These assumptions are shaky under normal circumstances. When you add in the clear and obvious behavior POST rescue, where their tone changes and they discuss the events as though they've both talked about it (and even mention talking about it, when they didn't), it's just a clear plot hole.​

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[LeKill3rFou]

It reminds me of a film which originally lasted 3 hours but which should have been shortened to 1 hour 30 minutes. Which obviously leaves holes in the story and pushes those who love the film to ask themselves (too) many questions

 

[pndrad]

It's like the endings were Johnny is in control and V says the plan is for Johnny to take their body. At no point did my V say Johnny could have their body. There is another instance of characters knowing things they shouldn't, but I haven't played since January and I don't remember who it was. The writers needed more time then what they got, management screwed this game up bad.

 

[Fins_FinsT]

Alright, I know there are a few threads in this but the logic some folks have in answering the question seems odd and is generally missing some key information. So, I'm gonna take a stab at explaining my personal confusion on how Takemura does a 180 and how it fits into the story.

I'm going to go through each of the key events and then provide some suggestions on what it could be missing. Assume in each of these that the others haven't happened. It's an OR thing not an AND thing, if you know what I mean. Here goes:



1. Takemura sees Saburo slain, Yorinobu is the only one in the area, Yori says it was poison, Takemura doesn't buy it.

Potentially missing storytelling point:​

​

Takemura could have scanned Saburo while talking with Yorinobu, learning that the cause of death was strangling. Combine that with spotting the break in the glass on the pillar and Saburo's blood there. We see V's scanners able to grasp these kinds of fine details relatively easily in a few quests. This could come up later in the story to explain how Takemura ultimately figured out this piece of the puzzle. Not the perfect spot, but it'd be something.​

2. Takemura finds V through Dex DeShawn in the Land Fill, Kills Dex, Calls Yorinobu, Places V in Car, Tells him/her he/she smells like shit.

Potentially missing storytelling point:​

​

Takemura could have jacked into V to learn what was going on, similar to Meredith Stout's bodyguard, thus divining the missing information. This could have been confirmed or touched on if we didn't see it directly at some other point prior to them meeting at Tom's Diner. ​

​

3. Takemura and V are attacked by Saka Ninjas (presumably sent by Yorinobu). These aren't Maelstrom guys. They're not Maelstrom. Quit saying they're Maelstrom. If you have a Corpo background, V confirms this. They're wearing Arasaka stuff. They don't have the same implants. They literally say "Traitor" over and over. They're not Maelstrom. Stop it.

Potentially missing storytelling point:​

​

This is the moment where Takemura appears to have done his 180. The player goes to sleep thinking the loyal Takemura is about to take us to Arasaka, and wakes up to Arasaka trying to kill them both, calling Takemura a Traitor, and there's no explanation. Sometimes you don't need an explanation. This time, I think we do. While it does go a ways to show that Yorinobu is trying to kill them both and is thus now a bad guy from Takemura's point of view, it doesn't explain how Takemura knows that V saw it and that V is a witness to it.​

​

After the last agent is killed, V could've told Takemura that he / she did not kill Saburo, and that it was Yorinobu. Takemura could accept that at face value and decide that, combined with the sudden attack, they should go to a ripperdoc and seek refuge and investigate. This would be the perfect spot to place this information in my opinion -- the convincing doesn't need to be done by V, it's already done by the 'Saka ninjas, and it would link all of the other evidence we can reasonably assume Takemura has based on the story elements. Evidence like knowing V was involved, that Dex was involved, that Yorinobu is lying, and that Yorinobu is trying to kill them both. This one simple statement here could have fixed the entire mix up in the future.​

​

4. Takemura and V go to Vik's and some amount of time has passed before V and Vik have 'the talk'.

Potentially missing storytelling point:​

​

Takemura could have had a bedside chat with V discussing Saburo briefly, while he/she is in and out. Or, alternatively, could have worked with Vik to discover what had happened at Konpeki Plaza. This could have either been something the player sees or something that is explained by Vik or Takemura later. Not as seamless as #3 but still pretty good.​

​

5. Takemura and V meet at Tom's Diner and discuss a way forward.

It is during these conversations when Takemura says something like "[...] You will tell them what you told me about Saburo-sama's death [...]" when discussing taking the information of Saburo's real killer to the Arasaka board. This is the main sticking point for me. Without any of the above missing storytelling points being met, there's no point in time when the player witnesses Takemura acquiring the information that Yorinobu is Saburo's killer and that V is a witness. He may infer it. He may suspect it. He may draw that conclusion based on external sources. But we never see any evidence of any of that. We have to assume that he's assuming this.​

​

Yet, all further discussions are from the perspective that V and Takemura DID have this conversation, where they both are on the same page about what actually happened at Konpeki, down to every detail involving Saburo and V's role in it.​

​

​

This is the big plot point that is missing.​

​

Without that plot point being explained, we are making a lot of assumptions to fill in the gaps. We're assuming that Yorinobu discovered V's involvement (maybe the SID chip scan at the beginning, maybe cameras, maybe something else, who knows?) . We're assuming that Yorinobu and Takemura had some kind of conversation about V and his/her involvement. We're assuming that Takemura made the connection that Yorinobu is lying, that he discovered that Yori's actually the killer, and that V must have witnessed it.​

​

These assumptions are shaky under normal circumstances. When you add in the clear and obvious behavior POST rescue, where their tone changes and they discuss the events as though they've both talked about it (and even mention talking about it, when they didn't), it's just a clear plot hole.​

​

​

Nothing is missing.

Things are simple. Yori sends Takemura out to make sure both Dex and V are dead. Yori wants Dex and V dead because he wants to blame Dex for being mastermind, and V for being the hired killer who flatlined Saburo. At the time, Yori already knows the relic was stolen, and that Dex is behind the heist - so "Dex and his merc" are perfect ones to blame for Saburo death, which happened about the same time.

Obviously, Yori knows Dex / V did not do it (he did). So he knows Dex and/or V could talk one day and make other people know they did not do it. This won't do, for Yori. So he sends Takemura to deal with V and Dex.

Dex is not anyhow needed alive other than as a lead to V. And his body is not needed at all. So Yorinobu's order to Takemura - flatline Dex right after V's found. V's body, however, is different matter: it has the Relic in it (which Takemura learns from Dex before killing him, i bet). So Takemura calls Yori, and Yori orders Takemura to deliver V to agreed location.

Thing is, Yorinobu likes to make sure things are secure. So he sends out other goons, with orders to off both V and Takemura, then deliver their bodies to him. Standard practice for "removing witnesses" for high-profile corps: once the killer removes the witness - remove the killer himself, ASAP.

That's all there is to it.

And Yori was about to kill two birds with one stone, there: by killing Takemura, not only he removes the only person who personally have seen removal of Dex and capture of V from the landfill, he also removes a person who deeply despises him for starting all the chaos and conflict within Arasaka (as Takemura explains shortly before the parade to V, it was Yorinobu who started all the internal conflict within Arasaka). And i really doubt Yori would be so blind to not know Takemura is much against him and only obeys his orders because Yori is now formal head of the corp.

Thing is, Yori's goons happened to be no match for "disconnected" Takemura (of course, Arasaka implants, medcare, etc was all disabled for Takemura once Yori ordered his termination) plus wounded V.

Gross understimation on Yori's part, yes. A mistake. The guy's not known to be flawlessly precise and always correct about his decisions overall, though, so no big surprise.

 

[jkmaybe]

Nothing is missing.

Things are simple. Yori sends Takemura out to make sure both Dex and V are dead. Yori wants Dex and V dead because he wants to blame Dex for being mastermind, and V for being the hired killer who flatlined Saburo. At the time, Yori already knows the relic was stolen, and that Dex is behind the heist - so "Dex and his merc" are perfect ones to blame for Saburo death, which happened about the same time.

Obviously, Yori knows Dex / V did not do it (he did). So he knows Dex and/or V could talk one day and make other people know they did not do it. This won't do, for Yori. So he sends Takemura to deal with V and Dex.

Dex is not anyhow needed alive other than as a lead to V. And his body is not needed at all. So Yorinobu's order to Takemura - flatline Dex right after V's found. V's body, however, is different matter: it has the Relic in it (which Takemura learns from Dex before killing him, i bet). So Takemura calls Yori, and Yori orders Takemura to deliver V to agreed location.

Thing is, Yorinobu likes to make sure things are secure. So he sends out other goons, with orders to off both V and Takemura, then deliver their bodies to him. Standard practice for "removing witnesses" for high-profile corps: once the killer removes the witness - remove the killer himself, ASAP.

That's all there is to it.

And Yori was about to kill two birds with one stone, there: by killing Takemura, not only he removes the only person who personally have seen removal of Dex and capture of V from the landfill, he also removes a person who deeply despises him for starting all the chaos and conflict within Arasaka (as Takemura explains shortly before the parade to V, it was Yorinobu who started all the internal conflict within Arasaka). And i really doubt Yori would be so blind to not know Takemura is much against him and only obeys his orders because Yori is now formal head of the corp.

Thing is, Yori's goons happened to be no match for "disconnected" Takemura (of course, Arasaka implants, medcare, etc was all disabled for Takemura once Yori ordered his termination) plus wounded V.

Gross understimation on Yori's part, yes. A mistake. The guy's not known to be flawlessly precise and always correct about his decisions overall, though, so no big surprise.

Sorry, but there is quite a bit missing. You either didn't read my original post, or you didn't get it. I'll explain.

1. Yori sending Takemura to Dex and V is something we can safely assume. We should assume based on the context clues throughout the game that Arasaka can track down information. We don't know how the tracked down Dex and ultimately V, but we know that Takemura is likely responsible for some or all of that task. We also know that up until the car fight, Takemura and Yori are on the same page. So I'll agree that "Dex and his merc" are the perfect ones to blame up to this point.

2. We don't know that Takemura's order from Yori was to flatline Dex, but it doesn't matter because it happens anyway. Additionally, there is a subtle decision making point that is never paid off and that is when Dex ask's V about the 'Saka chip. You can either say you've got it or you can say you don't, it changes nothing in the game. We can probably suspend our disbelief and assume Dex told Takemura that V has the chip even if he doesn't know that V has the chip, just to save his own skin. We're on the same page so far, more or less, which is what I mentioned in my original post.

3. After his point, we are going to start diverting. We don't know that Yorinobu sent those Saka agents after Takemura and V in order to kill them both, we just have to assume this based on the time they attacked following Takemura's phone call and recovery of V. It could just as easily be that that Takemura attacked them after they showed up. We don't know. We won't ever know.

4. We don't know that Takemura is disconnected during the car fight after V wakes back up. But even if we assume this, why would Takemura -- who at this point is ignorant to who V is and what his role was in the Kompeki tower, beyond his thievery of the Relic -- side with V? Out of necessity? Perhaps, but then why does he demand a meeting after V's recovery? Why does he make references to V knowing how Saburo really died? Why does he make mention of a conversation that never took place, where V had told him about Yorinobu killing Saburo?

At no point in time is the singular fact that V knows that Yori killed Saburo ever communicated to Takemura. Ever. Yet, it's presumed that Takemura knows this from the moment the Saka ninjas attack them following Takemura abducting V. It's assumed this so heavily that Takemura will singularly trust V to participate in every step of every plan leading to it.

How does Takemura know that Yorinobu killed Saburo?

How does Takemura know that V knows this and can prove it?

This is never addressed, and unlike most of the narrative you described, it isn't even hinted at or alluded to, so that we can assume that it happened. This key piece of information that is a hinge point in the entire story arch between Takemura and V. And it's missing.

My original post contains possible solutions to this problem.

 

[SteelDragon2050]

How does Takemura know that Yorinobu killed Saburo?

You can't see through that bullshit story like it's water? No one else in the room, that they were aware of, yet someone magically managed to poison Saburo? The story was thin from the moment it left Yori's forked tongue. Not hard to get a hunch he was lying.

How does Takemura know that V knows this and can prove it?

The chain of events. Once they find the chip missing, Takemura was likely sent to figure out who did it, leading to Dex. Dex, being the yellow belly he is, spilled that it was V to try and save his own hide. Takemura likely asked for proof V was dead, leading them to the landfill where they find V awake. Dex is killed for both his part in the raid, and since at that point, it was a lie that V was dead, probably wiping out any deal Dex had made with Goro.

 

[Ayinde_Palmer]

Alright, I know there are a few threads in this but the logic some folks have in answering the question seems odd and is generally missing some key information. So, I'm gonna take a stab at explaining my personal confusion on how Takemura does a 180 and how it fits into the story.

I'm going to go through each of the key events and then provide some suggestions on what it could be missing. Assume in each of these that the others haven't happened. It's an OR thing not an AND thing, if you know what I mean. Here goes:



1. Takemura sees Saburo slain, Yorinobu is the only one in the area, Yori says it was poison, Takemura doesn't buy it.

Potentially missing storytelling point:​

​

Takemura could have scanned Saburo while talking with Yorinobu, learning that the cause of death was strangling. Combine that with spotting the break in the glass on the pillar and Saburo's blood there. We see V's scanners able to grasp these kinds of fine details relatively easily in a few quests. This could come up later in the story to explain how Takemura ultimately figured out this piece of the puzzle. Not the perfect spot, but it'd be something.​

2. Takemura finds V through Dex DeShawn in the Land Fill, Kills Dex, Calls Yorinobu, Places V in Car, Tells him/her he/she smells like shit.

Potentially missing storytelling point:​

​

Takemura could have jacked into V to learn what was going on, similar to Meredith Stout's bodyguard, thus divining the missing information. This could have been confirmed or touched on if we didn't see it directly at some other point prior to them meeting at Tom's Diner. ​

​

3. Takemura and V are attacked by Saka Ninjas (presumably sent by Yorinobu). These aren't Maelstrom guys. They're not Maelstrom. Quit saying they're Maelstrom. If you have a Corpo background, V confirms this. They're wearing Arasaka stuff. They don't have the same implants. They literally say "Traitor" over and over. They're not Maelstrom. Stop it.

Potentially missing storytelling point:​

​

This is the moment where Takemura appears to have done his 180. The player goes to sleep thinking the loyal Takemura is about to take us to Arasaka, and wakes up to Arasaka trying to kill them both, calling Takemura a Traitor, and there's no explanation. Sometimes you don't need an explanation. This time, I think we do. While it does go a ways to show that Yorinobu is trying to kill them both and is thus now a bad guy from Takemura's point of view, it doesn't explain how Takemura knows that V saw it and that V is a witness to it.​

​

After the last agent is killed, V could've told Takemura that he / she did not kill Saburo, and that it was Yorinobu. Takemura could accept that at face value and decide that, combined with the sudden attack, they should go to a ripperdoc and seek refuge and investigate. This would be the perfect spot to place this information in my opinion -- the convincing doesn't need to be done by V, it's already done by the 'Saka ninjas, and it would link all of the other evidence we can reasonably assume Takemura has based on the story elements. Evidence like knowing V was involved, that Dex was involved, that Yorinobu is lying, and that Yorinobu is trying to kill them both. This one simple statement here could have fixed the entire mix up in the future.​

​

4. Takemura and V go to Vik's and some amount of time has passed before V and Vik have 'the talk'.

Potentially missing storytelling point:​

​

Takemura could have had a bedside chat with V discussing Saburo briefly, while he/she is in and out. Or, alternatively, could have worked with Vik to discover what had happened at Konpeki Plaza. This could have either been something the player sees or something that is explained by Vik or Takemura later. Not as seamless as #3 but still pretty good.​

​

5. Takemura and V meet at Tom's Diner and discuss a way forward.

It is during these conversations when Takemura says something like "[...] You will tell them what you told me about Saburo-sama's death [...]" when discussing taking the information of Saburo's real killer to the Arasaka board. This is the main sticking point for me. Without any of the above missing storytelling points being met, there's no point in time when the player witnesses Takemura acquiring the information that Yorinobu is Saburo's killer and that V is a witness. He may infer it. He may suspect it. He may draw that conclusion based on external sources. But we never see any evidence of any of that. We have to assume that he's assuming this.​

​

Yet, all further discussions are from the perspective that V and Takemura DID have this conversation, where they both are on the same page about what actually happened at Konpeki, down to every detail involving Saburo and V's role in it.​

​

​

This is the big plot point that is missing.​

​

Without that plot point being explained, we are making a lot of assumptions to fill in the gaps. We're assuming that Yorinobu discovered V's involvement (maybe the SID chip scan at the beginning, maybe cameras, maybe something else, who knows?) . We're assuming that Yorinobu and Takemura had some kind of conversation about V and his/her involvement. We're assuming that Takemura made the connection that Yorinobu is lying, that he discovered that Yori's actually the killer, and that V must have witnessed it.​

​

These assumptions are shaky under normal circumstances. When you add in the clear and obvious behavior POST rescue, where their tone changes and they discuss the events as though they've both talked about it (and even mention talking about it, when they didn't), it's just a clear plot hole.​

​

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its not a plot hole, telling the player everything isn't required in any story. They didnt explain it because they are showing the story from V's perspective. Everything you see in game is from V's perspective. V was dead/unconscious/ with brain injury for that time. Its meant to be uncertain whats going on with takamura. Intentionally obscuring information in a story is not a plot hole

 

[NUSAPilgrim]

I've always thought that the reason Yorinobu sent the agents to kill Takemura was because he knew Takemura wouldn't just let the whole death of Saburo go. He knew Takemura was fanatically loyal to Saburo (Saburo being the one that gave Takemura a purpose and principals to live by, he tells you this himself) and wouldn't believe for a second that Saburo died from poisoning. He might of gone along with it for a time but he would eventually try to find out the truth, unlike all the Saka board members who seem to have no issue.
Also when Takemura discovers V is alive and tells Yorinobu, that's when he realises he can kill two birds with one stone so to speak, so he shuts off Takemuras implants and send the assassins to kill them both. Yorinobu expected V to be dead and when Takemura confirmed he/she was alive, he knew that Takemura would most likely question V first rather then just bring V back for interrogation.
I imagine if V told Takemura the truth, then Takemura would believe them as Takemura suspects foul play from the start. The fact that the assassins show up first only confirms his suspicions that Yori is hiding something.

 

[jkmaybe]

You can't see through that bullshit story like it's water? No one else in the room, that they were aware of, yet someone magically managed to poison Saburo? The story was thin from the moment it left Yori's forked tongue. Not hard to get a hunch he was lying.

Of course I can see through it. But nothing about that situation is described to the player, but references to such a description are made throughout your initial interactions with Takemura. The plot hole isn't singular; we are TOLD a conversation happened between Takemura and V that doesn't happen. We are left to make major assumptions to fill in the gaps based on little or no evidence. Those two are unique but very existent plot holes.

The chain of events. Once they find the chip missing, Takemura was likely sent to figure out who did it, leading to Dex. Dex, being the yellow belly he is, spilled that it was V to try and save his own hide. Takemura likely asked for proof V was dead, leading them to the landfill where they find V awake. Dex is killed for both his part in the raid, and since at that point, it was a lie that V was dead, probably wiping out any deal Dex had made with Goro.

Reading through all of your replies, you've made the case of 'assumptions' even clearer than I did. You've assumed 90% of what you're saying without any, or with very little, evidence. You've written your own story to fill in what the real story did not give you.

We have to make some MAJOR assumptions in order to connect these dots. We have to assume that Takemura went back to the penthouse to investigate. We have to assume that Takemura (and Yorinobu) tracked down the chip thieves as V and Jackie. We have to assume that Takemura divined that V was in the room when Yorinobu was killed. This means we have to assume that they had access to the systems that T-Bug wiped or controlled the whole way. This entire alternative setting is a story we have to invent because none of it is actually hinted at or mentioned, ever. It just magically happened off screen.

And none of your replies have addressed the two times Takemura refers to a conversation with V, that he and V do not have. First, in Tom's diner, Takemura already knows the truth about what V knows -- this isn't something that Takemura should know under any circumstance. He mentions to V that he can go to the Arasaka board and 'tell them the truth about Saboro' and 'get a hearing before a group of reasonable people'. Second, during your phone conversation with him while he's setting up the meeting with Oda, where he says something along the lines of 'You will tell him what you told me'.

its not a plot hole, telling the player everything isn't required in any story. They didnt explain it because they are showing the story from V's perspective. Everything you see in game is from V's perspective. V was dead/unconscious/ with brain injury for that time. Its meant to be uncertain whats going on with takamura. Intentionally obscuring information in a story is not a plot hole

Perhaps you can use this reasoning to describe the need to make massive assumptions in order to fill in the missing information from the perspective of other characters, but you can't use this reasoning to explain why those characters refer to conversations that didn't take place with the character whose perspective we ARE privy to.

It is definitely a plot hole for a character to make a reference to a conversation that didn't happen, twice. It's definitely a plot hole for a character to magically know events that only our main character knows, with no explanation, and to trust their "assumed alternative source" so well that it's never hashed out between the two.

There's no time in the game when V is awake canonically that they are not awake for the player while actively playing. They are awake during random parts of surgeries, while being half dead in the land fill, and a smattering of other times. There is no evidence of story telling in this game that suggests that V can have entire conversations off screen with anyone. And since this is the case, Takemura referencing a random conversation -- one that is KEY to him knowing what V knows -- is a plot hole.

I imagine if V told Takemura the truth, then Takemura would believe them as Takemura suspects foul play from the start. The fact that the assassins show up first only confirms his suspicions that Yori is hiding something.

Yes, I agree, if V actually told Takemura the truth, then he would have believed him given the circumstances. In fact, I stated this exact thing in my original post. It's the entire premise of the suggested additional lines at one of the proposed locations. V had plenty of opportunities to tell Takemura, even in passing, even as a side bar, even as a one off, that he knows that Yorinobu killed Saburo. Yet he doesn't. And since he doesn't, Takemura shouldn't know. Even if he DOES know through some other undisclosed method, he shouldn't be referencing a conversation that never happened.

That'd be like me saying "I know you like to play jump rope because you told me". Even if I'm right, I really have no reason to know that, and you definitely didn't tell me. So from a story perspective, divining that information out of thin air is a plot hole and suggesting that you told me it when you didn't is a plot hole.

 

[BarefootWarrior]

Good post and a lot of good reading here from everyone.

The one big issue I had with all of this was right after Takemura shot Dex. He then immediately puts V in the car and drives off, and we all know what happens there. My question is / was, why didn't Takemura plug into V and see what V had witnessed right then and there before he did anything else? Get any information first and send it off to Yorinobu. That one point really sticks to me. Just didn't make any sense to me.

Just my thoughts on the subject but there you go.

 

[SteelDragon2050]

So it's wrong that i'm able to figure it out without the game holding my hand? Ooookay.

 

[Ayinde_Palmer]

Of course I can see through it. But nothing about that situation is described to the player, but references to such a description are made throughout your initial interactions with Takemura. The plot hole isn't singular; we are TOLD a conversation happened between Takemura and V that doesn't happen. We are left to make major assumptions to fill in the gaps based on little or no evidence. Those two are unique but very existent plot holes.




Reading through all of your replies, you've made the case of 'assumptions' even clearer than I did. You've assumed 90% of what you're saying without any, or with very little, evidence. You've written your own story to fill in what the real story did not give you.

We have to make some MAJOR assumptions in order to connect these dots. We have to assume that Takemura went back to the penthouse to investigate. We have to assume that Takemura (and Yorinobu) tracked down the chip thieves as V and Jackie. We have to assume that Takemura divined that V was in the room when Yorinobu was killed. This means we have to assume that they had access to the systems that T-Bug wiped or controlled the whole way. This entire alternative setting is a story we have to invent because none of it is actually hinted at or mentioned, ever. It just magically happened off screen.

And none of your replies have addressed the two times Takemura refers to a conversation with V, that he and V do not have. First, in Tom's diner, Takemura already knows the truth about what V knows -- this isn't something that Takemura should know under any circumstance. He mentions to V that he can go to the Arasaka board and 'tell them the truth about Saboro' and 'get a hearing before a group of reasonable people'. Second, during your phone conversation with him while he's setting up the meeting with Oda, where he says something along the lines of 'You will tell him what you told me'.



Perhaps you can use this reasoning to describe the need to make massive assumptions in order to fill in the missing information from the perspective of other characters, but you can't use this reasoning to explain why those characters refer to conversations that didn't take place with the character whose perspective we ARE privy to.

It is definitely a plot hole for a character to make a reference to a conversation that didn't happen, twice. It's definitely a plot hole for a character to magically know events that only our main character knows, with no explanation, and to trust their "assumed alternative source" so well that it's never hashed out between the two.

There's no time in the game when V is awake canonically that they are not awake for the player while actively playing. They are awake during random parts of surgeries, while being half dead in the land fill, and a smattering of other times. There is no evidence of story telling in this game that suggests that V can have entire conversations off screen with anyone. And since this is the case, Takemura referencing a random conversation -- one that is KEY to him knowing what V knows -- is a plot hole.



Yes, I agree, if V actually told Takemura the truth, then he would have believed him given the circumstances. In fact, I stated this exact thing in my original post. It's the entire premise of the suggested additional lines at one of the proposed locations. V had plenty of opportunities to tell Takemura, even in passing, even as a side bar, even as a one off, that he knows that Yorinobu killed Saburo. Yet he doesn't. And since he doesn't, Takemura shouldn't know. Even if he DOES know through some other undisclosed method, he shouldn't be referencing a conversation that never happened.

That'd be like me saying "I know you like to play jump rope because you told me". Even if I'm right, I really have no reason to know that, and you definitely didn't tell me. So from a story perspective, divining that information out of thin air is a plot hole and suggesting that you told me it when you didn't is a plot hole.

what conversation are you saying Takemura referenced twice?

Also, When V blacks out, sometimes things can happen. Either when they can't exactly remember, (like irl when people get head injuries, or take drugs) and when Johnny is involved. Which in this case is a real possibility.

The player is given V's perspective, they are not ominipotent watchers of V, if V forgets something, or can't remember something, we can't remember it either.

Are you saying V referenced some conversation we never saw? or takemura?

 

[AikoHayashi]

Good post and a lot of good reading here from everyone.

The one big issue I had with all of this was right after Takemura shot Dex. He then immediately puts V in the car and drives off, and we all know what happens there. My question is / was, why didn't Takemura plug into V and see what V had witnessed right then and there before he did anything else? Get any information first and send it off to Yorinobu. That one point really sticks to me. Just didn't make any sense to me.

Just my thoughts on the subject but there you go.

What do you mean by seeing what V had witnessed? V doesn't record BDs. Also at the landfill, Takemura is sure that V is the killer.

 

[MortVickers2020]

I think that there are two ways to approach this. One is that Takemura is a pure Deus Ex Machina whose purpose is to advance the plot of the story. Reasonable. The other is to assume that Takemura - who is now effectively ronin AND spent a long time as Saburo's right hand - is as reliable and truthful as a weasel on meth and will say anything to advance his agenda. Also reasonable, and way more cyberpunk.

 

[Ayinde_Palmer]

I think that there are two ways to approach this. One is that Takemura is a pure Deus Ex Machina whose purpose is to advance the plot of the story. Reasonable. The other is to assume that Takemura - who is now effectively ronin AND spent a long time as Saburo's right hand - is as reliable and truthful as a weasel on meth and will say anything to advance his agenda. Also reasonable, and way more cyberpunk.

well even outside of this takemura has said many questionable things, He claims he doesn't know much about michiko... But michiko is one of the dominant forces in Arasaka, He contradicts himself in the devil ending, saying hanako firgot about you, and hanako sent me to help you, and he tries to make you believe hanako is the only solution, when he knows this is not accurate. He kidnaps hanako way too fast for that to be unplanned

So I would say, takemura is not a guy who never lies.

 

[MortVickers2020]

well even outside of this takemura has said many questionable things, He claims he doesn't know much about michiko... But michiko is one of the dominant forces in Arasaka, He contradicts himself in the devil ending, saying hanako firgot about you, and hanako sent me to help you, and he tries to make you believe hanako is the only solution, when he knows this is not accurate. He kidnaps hanako way too fast for that to be unplanned

So I would say, takemura is not a guy who never lies.

Hard agree. Never trust Arasaka. Ever.

 

[BarefootWarrior]

What do you mean by seeing what V had witnessed? V doesn't record BDs. Also at the landfill, Takemura is sure that V is the killer.

OK, I stand corrected.

 

[SteelDragon2050]

Whatever conversation V had with Goro is for the latter's benefit only, and we don't need to see or hear it. We know what happened at Konpeki, Goro doesn't. Why add an explanation of events that players would most likely skip because they already know what happened, and don't need a reminder?

 

[AikoHayashi]

well even outside of this takemura has said many questionable things, He claims he doesn't know much about michiko... But michiko is one of the dominant forces in Arasaka, He contradicts himself in the devil ending, saying hanako firgot about you, and hanako sent me to help you, and he tries to make you believe hanako is the only solution, when he knows this is not accurate. He kidnaps hanako way too fast for that to be unplanned

So I would say, takemura is not a guy who never lies.

Everything is possible, but his statement that he doesn't know a lot about Michiko is probably true.

Michiko Arasaka (Kei's daughter)

Michiko Arasaka (荒坂 美知子), is the head of the Hato faction of the Arasaka Corporation and founder and CEO of Danger Gal. Unlike the rest of her family and corporation, she allied with the US government after the Fourth Corporate War. Michiko Arasaka is the daughter of Kei Arasaka, and...

cyberpunk.fandom.com

Most of her life was kept secret from the rest of the Arasaka family, especially her grandfather Saburo.

 

[Ayinde_Palmer]

Everything is possible, but his statement that he doesn't know a lot about Michiko is probably true.

Michiko Arasaka (Kei's daughter)

Michiko Arasaka (荒坂 美知子), is the head of the Hato faction of the Arasaka Corporation and founder and CEO of Danger Gal. Unlike the rest of her family and corporation, she allied with the US government after the Fourth Corporate War. Michiko Arasaka is the daughter of Kei Arasaka, and...

cyberpunk.fandom.com

Its possible, but unlikely he knows little about her by 2077. She is a VIP, basically the 4th most important person in the company at worst. And by 2077 and active participant(board of directors) . Saburo would have files, His personal body guard would likely have a folder on her at the least. Her life being kept secret was a detail that was true in her youth, by the time she was 17 Arasaka was aware of her existence, which is like 50 years ago by 2077

If he was just like, I don't know her personally it would be one thing, but he was talking very generally about hanako and yorinobu, Then he is like, I don't know anything about her. He at least knows she is American born, raised mostly in America, and recently joined the board of directors. He definitely knows she had her own private investigation company.

Its like a star wars fan being like, Luke is a powerful Jedi, Leia lead the rebellion, and I don't know much about Han solo. Even if you know a lot less, that description makes it seem like you got no info, and thats very unlikely.