Oneiromancy - The Autoinclude Problem

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Guys,

When you're designing cards, please, stop making cards so good that every single competetive deck lists it as "autoinclude". The fact that the card renders so many other, more balanced "draw any card" options (Iris Companions, for example) completely redundant is insane.

Specifically, yes, I'm talking about Oneiromancy. The most broken card in the game. A free "play anything", repeatable, unplayableroundable broken ass piece of crap card. Unless you're running some kind of graveyard manupulation and forcefully gimping your own deck then you have no options against this.

I remember when "player agency" was touted as being one of the design pillars of this new and improved version of Gwent, and for the most part it's kinda happened, but there are still a few startling problem cards in there...Oneiromancy being one of them. In this card you're giving massive agency to one player, and removing any chance at a reactive or proactive play from the other player, because you just can't stop it and it has ZERO drawbacks.

Either remove the ECHO, or make it 17 provisions. There. Balanced.
 
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Guys,

When you're designing cards, please, stop making cards so good that every single competetive deck lists it as "autoinclude". The fact that the card renders so many other, more balanced "draw any card" options (Iris Companions, for example) completely redundant is insane.

[...]
Iris Companions might the single least playable card in the current cardpool, so i do not think that comparison is saying a lot.
 
I tend to agree. A neutral card that allows you to play any other card with no restriction should not exist, or should be very expensive. And it should definitely NOT have echo. Imo, echo should either not exist OR be reserved for faction-specific devotion cards.
So....I believe Coup's echo should be tied to devotion, for example. Luck of the draw is and SHOULD BE an integral part of any and every card game virtual or not. Unrestricted tutors should have no place in gwent.
 
Iris Companions might the single least playable card in the current cardpool, so i do not think that comparison is saying a lot.

And all they have to do to make it playable is make the discard part a choice, rather than an RNG. There. Balanced.

[...]
 

DRK3

Forum veteran
I agree with the OP, in general.

-I think one of the main problems about balancing Oneiromancy is quantifying its value. Its very subjective and complex, its not like Eist where we know its point ceiling is 39pts when combined with leader, and relatively easy to achieve.

No, Oneiro cant have a simple point value, but if we see from a different perspective - by usage % in all decks, then yes we can definitely see its auto-include, at least in non-devotion decks.

Another problem that aggravates this issue, or more accurately, a solution that doesnt work as well as intended, is devotion - it could make Oneiro (and also heatwave, the 2nd place in auto-include cards) less appealing, but most devotion cards arent worth the sacrifice they demand, so they definitely need a buff (except SK ones, which is the faction that can do devotion and still be super strong).

Usually i try to avoid popular cards like its the plague, but i confess i use Oneiro in almost all of my decks except if using SK discard package or NG Morvran+ lot of thinning, otherwise the versatility+echo is just too good to pass up.
 
[...]
Another problem that aggravates this issue, or more accurately, a solution that doesnt work as well as intended, is devotion - it could make Oneiro (and also heatwave, the 2nd place in auto-include cards) less appealing, but most devotion cards arent worth the sacrifice they demand, so they definitely need a buff (except SK ones, which is the faction that can do devotion and still be super strong).
[...]
Would that not mean that the changed Whoreson Junior is a step in the right direction (at the very least for SY) ?
Also I am of the opinion that every faction should have at the very least 1 viable devotion deck.
 
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DRK3

Forum veteran
Would that not mean that the changed Whoreson Junior is a step in the right direction (at the very least for SY) ?
Also I am of the opinion that every faction should have at the very least 1 viable devotion deck.

I dont think the best method to make devotions more attractive is to make a single, gold devotion card super OP, i would rather opt to see them buff a bit all of the devotion cards, specially the bronze ones, which quite frankly are incredibly boring, even when they're good like the NR kerack marine (or whatever is his name).
 
Well we need some ways to draw cards we need, I agree we don't have to ALWAYS have EXACTLY what we need at every single moment but losing due to bad draws feels very frustrating. :I
 
Well we need some ways to draw cards we need, I agree we don't have to ALWAYS have EXACTLY what we need at every single moment but losing due to bad draws feels very frustrating. :I
Perhaps, but if both players in a match are struggling with bad draws, i.e. neither had tutors available to them, then it's also fun and fair - at least in my perspective, as both of them will be dissatisfied with their hands but it's unclear which bad hand is worse. Right now, we're mostly comparing consistent good hands, because we have good and widely used tutors available with Oneiromancy taking the trophy.
 
Perhaps, but if both players in a match are struggling with bad draws, i.e. neither had tutors available to them, then it's also fun and fair - at least in my perspective, as both of them will be dissatisfied with their hands but it's unclear which bad hand is worse. Right now, we're mostly comparing consistent good hands, because we have good and widely used tutors available with Oneiromancy taking the trophy.
But that's not how random luck works. xD it very much likes to lead to unbalanced matches when one guy can simply plough through the other one cause he had good luck while the other had the opposite kind of luck ie bad luck. And that's not fun for anyone :p
And that then leads to skill having a weaker impact which is also very bad for the game.
 
But that's not how random luck works. xD it very much likes to lead to unbalanced matches when one guy can simply plough through the other one cause he had good luck while the other had the opposite kind of luck ie bad luck. And that's not fun for anyone :p
And that then leads to skill having a weaker impact which is also very bad for the game.
The existence of cards like oneiromancy reduces the risk of not drawing high provision cards — which has the effect of polarizing deck design, encouraging more (hopefully never played) low provision cards to enable the inclusion of more high provision cards. On the average, with mulligans and tutoring, polarized decks tend to play more total provisions than non-polarized decks and, at least in theory, are thus stronger. But also, the difference between drawing a top card and a bottom card becomes greater — so “not drawing your cards” is more likely to cost you the game.

Thus, I would argue that excessive all purpose tutoring (as opposed to selective tutoring) actually increases the influence of luck in matches. Moreover it reduces variety in decks (every deck “needs” the autoinclude tutors), and it reduces variety in play (there is much less need to adapt play to the cards actually drawn). So in these ways, the value of skillful play declines even more.

In my opinion, reworking cards like Oneiromancy and Royal Decree would be a definite positive step for Gwent.
 
My suggestion for Oneiromancy would be the following change:

If you control a mage or the card played from your deck costs 7 or less provisions gain Echo.
Play any card from your deck.

=> Mages are available for every fraction cause of neutral mages and if you want the echo you should play a low provision card at the first play. Furthermore, this would fit to the theme of the upcoming expansion
 
My suggestion for Oneiromancy would be the following change:

If you control a mage or the card played from your deck costs 7 or less provisions gain Echo.
Play any card from your deck.

=> Mages are available for every fraction cause of neutral mages and if you want the echo you should play a low provision card at the first play. Furthermore, this would fit to the theme of the upcoming expansion
Someone already came up with the perfect fix for Oneiromancy and the rest of the other Echo cards a while ago in one of the other threads: make the second use be like an actual echo, as in a weaker version of the original. For example, Oneiromancy could choose any card from your deck when it's first used, but its Echo could only choose a Bronze card.

Unfortunately, I don't think any positive changes are coming with regard to the Echos. The best anyone can hope for is that they make Oneiromancy cost 1 or 2 more provisions. Even if they do occasionally fix individual cards, CDPR doesn't really ever address broken mechanics (see Defenders and Scenarios).
 
Oneiromancy shouldn't be an echo card the ability in itself is already amazing enough given the provision costs.
The card basically is an Royal Degree and Land of the Fables in one both these cards cost 10 provision costs.
13p is already cheap when compared to that but playing it twice is simply broken.
Echo should only work if you play an devotion deck
 
That's a fair assessment. I believe if something's going to make devotion an actual consideration, this would do it.
Sounds like a good idea. However if oneiromancy is to be played once. It will require at least a provision reduction
 

Guest 4375874

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Echo cards as a whole are a problem, many people said this when echo's were revealed. It removes any risk that players would otherwise encounter or require strategic thinking to get through. This is why we now have so many brain dead meta decks. I haven't used Oneiro since I realized this and I continue to avoid it, the matches are difficult being at a disadvantage but very satisfying when I win without.
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Sounds like a good idea. However if oneiromancy is to be played once. It will require at least a provision reduction
No it wouldn't. To play "Any card"? Remove the echo and keep the provision as is.
 
To be honest I like the idea of Echo cards. Why?

1) It encourages including graveyard hate tech cards.
2) Dependent on the card one should be aware of the fact that having the echo deck in hand also means having a unit from your deck (with potentially even higher value) not in your hand.
3) Actually, I also think about cards which have a "negative Echo". E.g. strong bronze units which you usually only want to play once but have Echo to compensate for it.

Nevertheless, I think that those tutoring echos should get their echo conditional.

e.g.
Oneiromancy
If you control a mage or the card played from your deck costs 7 or less provisions gain Echo.
Play any card from your deck.

Amphibious Assault
If you control at least one soldier at Melee and Ranged gain or the card played from your deck costs 7 or more provisions gain Echo.
Play a Northern Realms unit from your deck with a provision cost of 9 or less. Boost it by 1 for each provision below the limit.

Blood Eagle
If you control at least one damaged unit or the card played from your deck costs exactly 4 provisions gain Echo.
Damage an enemy unit by 2 then play a Warrior from your deck with a provision cost of 7 or less.
Deathblow: Play a Warrior from your deck instead.
Bloodthirst 3: Always trigger the Deathblow ability.
 
Oneiromancy
If you control a mage or the card played from your deck costs 7 or less provisions gain Echo.
Play any card from your deck.

Oneiromancy : if Corinne Tilly is in you're starting Deck gain Echo.
Corinne_Tilly.png


But like I already said in some other Threads when I suggest to return the low tier Golds in to silvers (apart from giving a additional balance option for High Roll Cards it also kind of devalues the meaning of Golds when it's even possible to build decks that almost entirely contain Golds additionally Silver seems to be pretty damn important in the Witcher Universe, no? ) to add another even higher Tier Color (Platinum?) for the most Powerful Card's (Oneiromancy, Scenarios, Evolving and old Leader Card's) of which you're only allowed to put 1 Card of that Color in you're Deck. That would also open up the possibility to add more powerful Card's like Scenarios or Evolving Card's when you're only able to run one of them.
 
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