Should Auberon be buffed (to make WH more playable) ?

[InkognitoXI]

There have been several adjustments to the evolving card over the span on the past few months and Wild Hunt (WH) is struggling with playability, while their evolving card is hardly seeing any play at all.
All that considered I have been thinking about the Evolving cards and realized that the NG and SY evolving cards are decent generic options for their own factions and the NR, SK and ST evolving cards are really massively supporting their own archetypes.
That being said Auberon is decent enough to not be cut from WH decks, however it is definitely by far the weakest of the evolving cards and in my opinion part of the reason is the unreliability, paired with the low ceiling for such a luck dependent card.
There are several ways to fix the issue, however my favourite solution would be to make Auberon more reliable.
One option would be to make him tutor his targets from one's deck or creating from a more limited pool.
Given the existence of Wild Hunt Riders tutoring might be more balanced or a limit on the size of the pool (i.e. create from the limited pool if one runs x amount of different WH bronze units in one's starting deck).

If you disagree, feel free to elaborate on why you assume this to wrong or if you agree, feel free to elaborate on your take on how to fix the issue.
In terms of the poll I tried to keep this as unbiased as possible, so in case the options are biased feel free to point that out.

 

[rrc]

IMHO, me being as objectively as I possibly can, I would say ST's evolving card is the weakest of the lot. If any evolving card deserves a buff, it is this. It plays for 10 with a promise of getting +3 from each Nature card, but I have played a LOT of games and getting +3 from all nature card has never happened. Mostly both the Young Dryads get killed and she plays for 10+NatureCards. Even considering the damage YD soaked, this is much lesser value for 12P card. Sorry for this unnecessary explanation and the reason I said it because you said he is the weakest. But coming to Aubueron:

He can trigger thrive two times in a single turn which is HUGE. It helps in dominance by boosting conquerors (for the sake of this discussion, lets assume it is a Devotion deck and these cards are at their max potential). So, he plays for 13 points on deploy triggering the thrive twice and playing other WH units he is a good engine too. Even if he doesn't get conqueror, in a weather deck, he can get very good options.

With all the great buffs to weather archetype, I would assume that WH will anyhow become stronger and Auberon will get played more. Ideally I would say weather would be played a lot and dominate, but lets not kid ourselves. For the MO deck to thrive, it needs the larva and Reckless Flurry is going to shut down the Larvas making SK (RF) an almost auto-win against MO (too). RF is going to single handedly crush MO and make them look weak. That is my predictions and may be it is topic for another thread.

 

[InkognitoXI]

[...]
He can trigger thrive two times in a single turn which is HUGE. It helps in dominance by boosting conquerors (for the sake of this discussion, lets assume it is a Devotion deck and these cards are at their max potential). So, he plays for 13 points on deploy triggering the thrive twice and playing other WH units he is a good engine too. Even if he doesn't get conqueror, in a weather deck, he can get very good options.
[...]

The probability of hitting Conqueror is 3 in 8, i.e. 37.5% of the times you play him.

Since you were mentioning Eithne let us compare this.

WH Warrior, Hound and Navigator are dependent on Dominance to not be extreme low-rolls, much worse than Eithne could ever be.
WH Bruiser is reliant on Frost/movement value whenever you roll him to be worth more than Cleaver's Muscle.
Naglfar's Taskmaster relies on Purify value, whenever you roll it (and potentially requires dominance), or else it is the same case as above.
Naglfar's Crew can be decent, however is more niche and yields a worse result than Eithne.
WH Rider is amazing, IF you run Riders and still have them in your deck, otherwise it is just another unplayable option.
Aen Elle Conqueror is good, If you play devotion and otherwise a 0 point option.

The WH units are either horrible in a WH deck (Warrior/Hound/Navigator), rely on specific circumstances (Taskmaster/Bruiser/Rider), are generally ok'ish (Crew), although worse than Eithne or are a single non-situation reliant, good roll (if and only if you run devotion).

[...]
With all the great buffs to weather archetype, I would assume that WH will anyhow become stronger and Auberon will get played more. Ideally I would say weather would be played a lot and dominate, but lets not kid ourselves. For the MO deck to thrive, it needs the larva and Reckless Flurry is going to shut down the Larvas making SK (RF) an almost auto-win against MO (too). RF is going to single handedly crush MO and make them look weak. That is my predictions and may be it is topic for another thread.

The revealed buffs to the weather archetype are Foglet (a buff to general Weather, not WH), Ancient Foglet, which is propably mediocre and Eredin to 6 base strength, which makes Eredin playable.
I would predict that without more changes Ancient Foglet will see no serious play and Foglet will be played as a pointslam 4p consume card.

IMHO, me being as objectively as I possibly can, I would say ST's evolving card is the weakest of the lot. If any evolving card deserves a buff, it is this. It plays for 10 with a promise of getting +3 from each Nature card, but I have played a LOT of games and getting +3 from all nature card has never happened. Mostly both the Young Dryads get killed and she plays for 10+NatureCards. Even considering the damage YD soaked, this is much lesser value for 12P card. Sorry for this unnecessary explanation and the reason I said it because you said he is the weakest. But coming to Aubueron:
[...]

To be fair you are raising a good point, however Eithne is 10 points +3 engine value and outside of SK (Blood Eagle etc) I am unsure on how you would efficiently deal with the Young Dryads.
If you know of more such cases I would like to hear them, given that you might have a point.

 

[nfrr41]

Most of evolving cards in bad situations.MO and ST evolving cards are weak,NR and NG evolving cards are not support any archetype,only SK and SY evolving cards are good.

 

[InkognitoXI]

Most of evolving cards in bad situations.MO and ST evolving cards are weak,NR and NG evolving cards are not support any archetype,only SK and SY evolving cards are good.

NG: Usurper is a 12 for 12 on 3 separate bodies with 1-2 additional points via his engine value, spying synergies and Aristocrat tag for Ball.
NR: Viraxas is an immediate 6 point unit + additional duel on Seltkirk/Anseis or at the very least 4 points from Kerack Marine + engine for Soldiers + potentially another point from Formation, so kind of another 12 for 12 at worst in Shieldwall decks.

I would disagree that they are not supporting archetypes.

 

[Guest 4375874]

Definitely should spawn from the starting deck. The problem I can see which prevents them from doing this is with something like Wild Hun Rider. If a player decides to play this that's a 17pt play, 18pts if played in it's 3rd form. And there are factions that do this like Blue stripes or Lippy decks which I dislike very much so even though I'm a MO player I don't want that.

Then there's thrive and the potential to trigger units twice in one turn with Auberon. I hate thrive and even more that it limits other cards but it's a factor we can't ignore.

 

[Iuliandrei]

Personally i dislike the recently announced leader-inspired cards buff, it feels like they're trying to make all these cards auto-include in every deck.
In the same way i don't think that if an archetype is struggling, the solution is to buff their strongest card.

 

[Robin2001]

I would say every evolving card is good each of the evolving cards sees play. I would also argue all of Them have the same powerlevel.

Ethne might have less of a pointswing but can produce more points then the other cards when the dryads arent answered.

Usurper has a higher point swing but dont generate engines.

Auberon you can choose 1 of 3 bronzen wild Hunt cards wich might give you a bigger point swing then usurper or give you damage to control. The problem isnt auberon but the bronze wild Hunt units, most of Them except conquorer are bad.

 

[InkognitoXI]

Definitely should spawn from the starting deck. The problem I can see which prevents them from doing this is with something like Wild Hun Rider. If a player decides to play this that's a 17pt play, 18pts if played in it's 3rd form. And there are factions that do this like Blue stripes or Lippy decks which I dislike very much so even though I'm a MO player I don't want that.
[...]

That is why I also suggested suggested pulling from one's deck, so that even with Riders it is just 13/14 points.
Otherwise they would have to either give Riders Initiative or pull a Foglet/Imlerith and just flip its ability with another card (potentially an unusable card) and give it a new ability.

Personally i dislike the recently announced leader-inspired cards buff, it feels like they're trying to make all these cards auto-include in every deck.
In the same way i don't think that if an archetype is struggling, the solution is to buff their strongest card.

The thing is though that Auberon is definitely the weakest evolving card, so buffing him to be more on par with the others would already do quite a bit.

I would say every evolving card is good each of the evolving cards sees play. I would also argue all of Them have the same powerlevel.

Ethne might have less of a pointswing but can produce more points then the other cards when the dryads arent answered.
[...]

I disagree, they do not all have the same powerlevel and definitely do not all see the same play.

[...]
Auberon you can choose 1 of 3 bronzen wild Hunt cards wich might give you a bigger point swing then usurper or give you damage to control. The problem isnt auberon but the bronze wild Hunt units, most of Them except conquorer are bad.

Which is why several options include Auberon being more consistent at pulling the worthwhile options, without increasing the overall power.

 

[Markus_Wirth]

From my perspective the evolving cards are fine as they are. Auberon is as already mentioned very strong in Thrive decks combined with Koshchey as they can trigger thrive twice.
Further criticism: If her can create a bronze wild hunt from you starting deck you can build a deck making sure that you get Wild Hunt Rider in round 3. In case of dominance this would be immediately 18 points with one card.

The wild hunt archetype is to my mind playable. If they want to buff I would suggest the following:

Wild Hunt Warrior: Base power from 3 to 4
-> Conditional 7 for 4

Wild Hunt Navigator: Base power from 3 to 4
-> Conditional 7 for 4

Imlerith
-> Would completely rework him

 

[InkognitoXI]

From my perspective the evolving cards are fine as they are. Auberon is as already mentioned very strong in Thrive decks combined with Koshchey as they can trigger thrive twice.
[...]

IF you get the right option, also point/provision-wise it is not better than Dandelion Poet at that.

[...]
Further criticism: If her can create a bronze wild hunt from you starting deck you can build a deck making sure that you get Wild Hunt Rider in round 3. In case of dominance this would be immediately 18 points with one card.
[...]

True and in that case either another option would have to be chosen or Rider would have to switch its ability with another card.

[...]
The wild hunt archetype is to my mind playable. If they want to buff I would suggest the following:

Wild Hunt Warrior: Base power from 3 to 4
-> Conditional 7 for 4

Wild Hunt Navigator: Base power from 3 to 4
-> Conditional 7 for 4

Imlerith
-> Would completely rework him

True, one could also rework all the garbage WH bronze units, however in that case it is still be a roulette card if you actually get the options worthwhile in that situation.

 

[1990BW]

Auberon is a very good card but the problem I have with it is that it doesn't see play in the archetype it's intended for.
It only sees play in thrive lists with double Koschey simply because this is waaaaaaaaaaay more points when compared to WH cards in the same provision tier.
Unfortunately that is just how Gwent is right now: fill your provision costs with the cards that do the most points in their tier and you have a deck.
So changing an evolving card will do nothing, giving an engine card 1 more strength does do nothing etc. etc.
The solution lies deeper in how cards support each other within an archetype instead of doing micro adjustments.

Based on my example with Auberon I would first look in to the thrive mechanic and rework that.
In a different thread here on the forums I already vouched that thrive should only trigger on cards within the same category.
So Larva's will only thrive when an insectoid is played, Bruxa only with vampires, Nekkers only with Ogroids etc. etc.
This removes the somewhat ridiculous ceiling on a lot of cards, you don't need to play solitaire anymore and if you're inclined to get the most out of it you'll have to play cards that support the thrive.

Draw this line in every faction, give more cards archetype support and reward this, compare cards in the same provision tier & balance.
Data alone won't help the game should be designed with logic, common sense and a clear direction.
Gwent over the years has gone in to a direction I would describe as wanting too much but deliver too little.
As long the devs don't recognize this and the playerbase is happy with pseudo fixes there will be no change.
Which is sad because all the tools, cards, mechanics, archetypes to make this an awesome game are available but never reach their full potential.

 

[quintivarium]

Auberon is a very good card but the problem I have with it is that it doesn't see play in the archetype it's intended for.
It only sees play in thrive lists with double Koschey simply because this is waaaaaaaaaaay more points when compared to WH cards in the same provision tier.
Unfortunately that is just how Gwent is right now: fill your provision costs with the cards that do the most points in their tier and you have a deck.
So changing an evolving card will do nothing, giving an engine card 1 more strength does do nothing etc. etc.
The solution lies deeper in how cards support each other within an archetype instead of doing micro adjustments.

Based on my example with Auberon I would first look in to the thrive mechanic and rework that.
In a different thread here on the forums I already vouched that thrive should only trigger on cards within the same category.
So Larva's will only thrive when an insectoid is played, Bruxa only with vampires, Nekkers only with Ogroids etc. etc.
This removes the somewhat ridiculous ceiling on a lot of cards, you don't need to play solitaire anymore and if you're inclined to get the most out of it you'll have to play cards that support the thrive.

Draw this line in every faction, give more cards archetype support and reward this, compare cards in the same provision tier & balance.
Data alone won't help the game should be designed with logic, common sense and a clear direction.
Gwent over the years has gone in to a direction I would describe as wanting too much but deliver too little.
As long the devs don't recognize this and the playerbase is happy with pseudo fixes there will be no change.
Which is sad because all the tools, cards, mechanics, archetypes to make this an awesome game are available but never reach their full potential.

Forcing all cards into archetypes is absolutely the wrong direction for the game. Some of us like to actually build our decks creatively designing interesting combinations from unexpected cards. Some us actually like encountering variety rather than a deck immediately determined by a single archetype. If Auberon plays well in decks other than wild hunt, I say that is wonderful.

 

[1990BW]

Forcing all cards into archetypes is absolutely the wrong direction for the game. Some of us like to actually build our decks creatively designing interesting combinations from unexpected cards. Some us actually like encountering variety rather than a deck immediately determined by a single archetype. If Auberon plays well in decks other than wild hunt, I say that is wonderful.

Isn't that the case now? 3 meta decks dominating the entire game knowing their entire list when you cue into them.
I'm not saying all cards require an rework as I mentioned above but there is clearly something fundamentally wrong with the game when a meta turns out the same way every single patch.
if an card for example excels in a point per provision ratio within their provision tier, regardless of what your strategy is, without an condition or a very simple one that alone will make it an auto-include in that faction.
If you play competitive there is just no way you don't play that card instead of a weaker one for the same provisions simple as that.
When you remove this kind of deckbuilding logic creative minds will ultimately be more rewarded especially when archetypes get more and more support and receive more options in expansions.

 

[rrc]

To be fair you are raising a good point, however Eithne is 10 points +3 engine value and outside of SK (Blood Eagle etc) I am unsure on how you would efficiently deal with the Young Dryads.
If you know of more such cases I would like to hear them, given that you might have a point.

SK: Blood Eagle is just one option. The warrior-pirate-5P card which does 2 damage on order. They have options to do 2x1 point damage easily per turn. Against SK, there is no chance for either of the YD to survive even one turn. Against SK (which is the most popular, most dominant for an year and years ahead probably), this is a 10+1 for each Nature card with 2x2 damage soaked.

SY: DiP, Freakshow, Drill (which is recent, but even before SY could easily deal with the two YDs)

NR: Against Immobilization, which is damage centric deck this is extremely weak. Before WotW expansion (and even now) this deck was popular and is very strong. YDs are feeders for the Forbidden Magic. Against WotW deck which has very less control, but it is more point slammy than this one.

MO: MO has always been notoriously bad in control in most of their decks, but their point slam potential is better than Nature's Gift and even Eithne with her YD is not going to survive against MO.

NG: NG doesn't have many 2 point damage I agree. Slave Hunters (or whoever is the assimilate engine who can do 2 damage on order) is the most efficient way to take the dryads. Hefty <something> the 2 damage tactic engine is an excellent answer, but tactic NG is currently not played much. But this Hefty siege engine is played even in lightly tactic deck and this will give quick death to all three engines.

ST: ST has many options. GT leader, Circle of Life, 4P elf cards and even 5P over-costed-no-one-plays-elfs can do two damage but they are not played. But even against ST, the 2 damage thing is very very easy.

I am not theorizing, but I have played this card many many times, but hardly ever the 2 dryads stick on the board. If you are not convinced, try to play an NG deck (Nature's Gift deck) and see if you can get good value out of Eithne. I can guarantee you that she will get you less value than Auberon in a similar games-sample.

 

[InkognitoXI]

[..]

I am not theorizing, but I have played this card many many times, but hardly ever the 2 dryads stick on the board. If you are not convinced, try to play an NG deck (Nature's Gift deck) and see if you can get good value out of Eithne. I can guarantee you that she will get you less value than Auberon in a similar games-sample.

From my experience Eithne is not as unreliable as you claim.
Of course Warriors is a very unfavored matchup, as well as Crownsplitters.

Also if you are forced to pick WH Warrior/Hound/Navigator/Crew or Bruiser/Taskmaster (without movement/frost-movement/purify value) Auberon will give you 10-12 points for 12 provisions and devotion, without the upside of a 3-point engine that demands an answer in terms of wide-punish/multiple instances of damage.
And with the Defender (Figgis) and a potential to invest leader charges to move the Young Dryads out of the dangerous 2-point range in such matchups it is not like one has to helplessly watch.

 

[Guest 4375874]

MO: MO has always been notoriously bad in control in most of their decks, but their point slam potential is better than Nature's Gift and even Eithne with her YD is not going to survive against MO.

The point slam argument for MO has not been relevant for some time now, there are already several cards that can outperform it without going tall because that's hardly an advantage anymore. Comparing Nature's gift to the entire faction is also an odd comparison, I'm sure there are bad MO matchups but I've lost to Natures gift several times. Unless you are running wide punish it's very difficult to counter in a long round and it's focus on tutors and removal also gives it an advantage against MO thrive decks.

As for Ethnie, yea by comparison her points aren't immediate so you do have to play smart. Adding to that you're relying on Auberon having other cards on the board to play beyond his max pt potential. Also using NG in your argument, but missing one important factor that places Auberon at a disadvantage. If Auberon get's Yenvo'd I assure you you'd be handing them far more points than you would with Ethnie or a dryad getting removed. MO and especially thrive is a far worse matchup againt NG than Natures Gift

 

[Iuliandrei]

The thing is though that Auberon is definitely the weakest evolving card, so buffing him to be more on par with the others would already do quite a bit.

Not sure what you base this on, their play rate? cause you can't take that in a vacuum, it heavily relies on the decks they support. You could say that Usurper is the strongest evolving card cause it's played the most but if you remove MB tomorrow, even if the Usurper card remains identical, it's play rate will drop.
Even if you make all evolving cards 12 point speartips, one will still have the lowest playrate/winrate.

The point it, stop making the game based around MANDATORY AUTO-INCLUDE cards.

 

[InkognitoXI]

Not sure what you base this on, their play rate? cause you can't take that in a vacuum, it heavily relies on the decks they support. You could say that Usurper is the strongest evolving card cause it's played the most but if you remove MB tomorrow, even if the Usurper card remains identical, it's play rate will drop.
Even if you make all evolving cards 12 point speartips, one will still have the lowest playrate/winrate.

The point it, stop making the game based around MANDATORY AUTO-INCLUDE cards.

I am basing this on the fact that Auberon is maybe 1 point better than the average Evolving card when one gets the 1 or 2 good options at that moment and significantly worse if one low-rolls.
What I am stating is that Auberon's average value is below every other evolving card, so if he would be more reliable in terms of what he does the problem would be solved.
Furthermore as a side effect this would also buff Wild Hunt, the clear main focus is that Auberon relies a lot on luck to get the kind of value the other evolving cards are getting on a consistent rate and potentially far less.

Honestly the closest concept to Auberon would be Casino Dwarves in Open Beta, only that the expectation value of those was actually positive.

 

[Lokiat0r]

I am not theorizing, but I have played this card many many times, but hardly ever the 2 dryads stick on the board. If you are not convinced, try to play an NG deck (Nature's Gift deck) and see if you can get good value out of Eithne. I can guarantee you that she will get you less value than Auberon in a similar games-sample.

I get great value from Eithne in Nature's Gift because I save two leader charges to boost the young dryads out of easy removal range. It forces opponents to under-utilize their higher damage cards to remove them or leave them alone. Outside of Nature's Gift, she's simply not worth playing. Even in Gaetan / Gezras decks where I want bodies on the board to move and boost, there are cheaper options.

I find Auberon far more difficult to get consistent value from.