Johnny + V relationship is poorly written [Spoilers]

[Liquidcyberpunk]

Finding meaning is all Johnny wanted. I really can relate with Johnny because we all know people who are narcissist, very condescending, and see life as nothing more then something to be destroyed. To watch Johnny finally find a friend and change is a hard thing, but to find meaning for oneself is the gift of being human.

 

[Ayinde_Palmer]

Almost like it was rushed and not thought out?! Hmmmmmmm

Post automatically merged: May 3, 2021

Oh please, spare the sanctimonious judging where everyone who doesn't think the way you do doesn't role-play...

Maybe.. JUST maybe.. some of us..
get assaulted by johnny...
have him ridicule and insult Judy..
ridicule and shame and insult Judy's friends and workers of Clouds....
actively wants us not to help them as they are just "whores" and have no value to him...

maybe some of us arent going to be besties with such a piece of $%$% who views sex workers as non=people for ridicule only and shoudln't help judy
even if hes in our heads... kinda like a roommate or college suitemate.. you're not automatically going to besties 4 life!! just because of close proximity. Sometimes close proximity bring scorn and derision.

You like him and besties.. great....
but just because I have a differing view doesn't mean I don't or can't role play
"

the dude was talking about people who don't reject Johnny but do the Johnny friendly content anyway hating him. If you dislike or hate Johnny that is fine RP, they write a bunch of dialog with that in mind.

Also Johnny has no problem with sex workers, he specifically dislikes dolls because they give up their consciousness to a chip that makes them puppets to some one else's subconscious desires. Now, wether thats good or bad is up to each person, but for a person like Johnny who values free will, self determination and willful rebellion. And says arasaka's biggest sin is altering people's minds, its not surprising he is not a fan of doll technology.

Regardless, you are free and encouraged in some plotlines to hate Johnny.

 

[Czembro]

ok, I see your perspective, I don't fully agree.

however I am curious, what did you think alt was asking for in exchange for helping you?

She wanted to enter Mikoshi to free/absorb the "souls" stored there. Were there some uterior motives? Maybe. Her actions aren't really explained or explored, maybe for the sake of DLCs, maybe for the sake of sequel, but for what is shown in the game we can't really say that there is any malice in Alt, at least not now.

 

[LeKill3rFou]

But for what is shown in the game we can't really say that there is any malice in Alt, at least not now.

I wouldn't say that. For me, it's the most terrifying character in the game.

For some reasons:

Spoiler

- Alt kill every one in Mikoshi whitout any mercy (In Star ending, it's particularly explicit with Saul/Panam dialog)
- Alt help V, only to destroy Mikoshi. Whitout that, V could die without her moving a finger (In Sun ending, when Johnny talk to Alt, she's no longer Alt and doesn't give a damn about Johnny,V and everyone else).
- And the worst for me, If you listen well, when you said "Thank" to Alt in Mikoshi (after connecting to the access point), she answers "Are you sure...?". When i heared that, i said to myself "Oh no, what did I do !".

In my opinion, V frees a monster by helping Alt

 

[AikoHayashi]

I wouldn't say that. For me, it's the most terrifying character in the game.

For some reasons:

Spoiler

- Alt kill every one in Mikoshi whitout any mercy (In Star ending, it's particularly explicit with Saul/Panam dialog)
- Alt help V, only to destroy Mikoshi. Whitout that, V could die without her moving a finger (In Sun ending, when Johnny talk to Alt, she's no longer Alt and doesn't give a damn about Johnny,V and everyone else).
- And the worst for me, If you listen well, when you said "Thank" to Alt in Mikoshi (after connecting to the access point), she answers "Are you sure...?". When i heared that, i said to myself "Oh no, what did I do !".

In my opinion, V frees a monster by helping Alt

 

[Czembro]

I wouldn't say that. For me, it's the most terrifying character in the game.

For some reasons:

Spoiler

- Alt kill every one in Mikoshi whitout any mercy (In Star ending, it's particularly explicit with Saul/Panam dialog)
- Alt help V, only to destroy Mikoshi. Whitout that, V could die without her moving a finger (In Sun ending, when Johnny talk to Alt, she's no longer Alt and doesn't give a damn about Johnny,V and everyone else).
- And the worst for me, If you listen well, when you said "Thank" to Alt in Mikoshi (after connecting to the access point), she answers "Are you sure...?". When i heared that, i said to myself "Oh no, what did I do !".

In my opinion, V frees a monster by helping Alt

Spoiler

• Alt doesn't kill them, she is freeing them,
• You're overlooking the whole thing about Johnny having chance at actually living his life in V's body. If Alt didn't give a damn about the two, she wouldn't even propose putting Johnny's engram back. Sure, she's AI, she lacks a lot of who she was as a human, but she cleraly sees a value in ones live, in being free,
• See, this is the thing - you are clearly projecting your own theories on her actions. This "Are you sure...?" could mean a lot of things, seeing how there is really no happy ending for V in any case. You just want to think that she is refering to what she will do with Mikoshi.

 

[LeKill3rFou]

Spoiler

• Alt doesn't kill them, she is freeing them,
• You're overlooking the whole thing about Johnny having chance at actually living his life in V's body. If Alt didn't give a damn about the two, she wouldn't even propose putting Johnny's engram back. Sure, she's AI, she lacks a lot of who she was as a human, but she cleraly sees a value in ones live, in being free,
• See, this is the thing - you are clearly projecting your own theories on her actions. This "Are you sure...?" could mean a lot of things, seeing how there is really no happy ending for V in any case. You just want to think that she is refering to what she will do with Mikoshi.

Nope, all what i said is in game (my only theorie is "She terrifying")

Spoiler

-> Alt kill all the civilians in the Arasaka tower whitout mercy (if you listen Panam and Saul, it's explicit, she's a cold killer).

-> When johnny talk to Alt (Sun ending), It's clear, Alt just help for destroy Mikoshi. But doesn't give a damn about them or everyone else (hence Johnny's reaction at the end of the dialogue).
During "Transmission"
V: "If we get you into Mikoshi safely, will you help me?"
Alt : "Yes, but how will you do ? I created armies that failed..."
She keeps her word to help V/Johnny whit bioship, that all.

-> And when she say "Are you sure...?", Considering what happened before, no I'm not too...
You say "thanks" to someone and he answer "Are you sure ?", personally, that scare me

Two little important details:
-I'm talking about the wild AI named "Alt" :
Alt : "The Alt that you knew no longer exists, I'm just using her engrammatic data. You should know johnny, since you're responsible for her death..."
-You can promise someone something and keep your word without liking him (and even hating him). It's two different thing for me

 

[Czembro]

Nope, all what i said is in game (my only theorie is "She terrifying")

Exactly, and you are inputing this on her every action. You want to see her as terrifying so whatever she does or says you are treating as suspicious or evil.

Spoiler

• You were refering to Mikoshi, not Arasaka Tower. Yes she kills all enemies in AT, but do you have any proof that also cyvilians? Calling someone "cold killer" doesn't really imply killing innocent people. Furthermore, she is helping V. Those she killed tried to kill V. If someone protect you by killing your attacker, would you call that person a monster?
• If that was true, she would kill V and Johnny the moment she was jacked-in into Mikoshi, yet she still creates and engram of V, tells them that Johnny have better chances of living in real world and even tries to convince V, that being an AI is an experience worth considering. Sorry, your theory doesn't add up at all. You just want to treat her like a monster.
• Yes, you are. She may very well be referring to what she does to V - treating him/her with Soulkiller, which in reallity kills him/her, and creating an engram. No wonders Alt is questioning any thanks for her. Again, you are just scared of her, because you don't understends her motives, so it's easier for you to simply paint Alt as monster/scary lady. It's pretty typical to be scared of something one doesn't understand, but it doesn't mean it's accurate.

 

[LeKill3rFou]

Exactly, and you are inputing this on her every action. You want to see her as terrifying so whatever she does or says you are treating as suspicious or evil.

Spoiler

• You were refering to Mikoshi, not Arasaka Tower. Yes she kills all enemies in AT, but do you have any proof that also cyvilians? Calling someone "cold killer" doesn't really imply killing innocent people. Furthermore, she is helping V. Those she killed tried to kill V. If someone protect you by killing your attacker, would you call that person a monster?
• If that was true, she would kill V and Johnny the moment she was jacked-in into Mikoshi, yet she still creates and engram of V, tells them that Johnny have better chances of living in real world and even tries to convince V, that being an AI is an experience worth considering. Sorry, your theory doesn't add up at all. You just want to treat her like a monster.
• Yes, you are. She may very well be referring to what she does to V - treating him/her with Soulkiller, which in reallity kills him/her, and creating an engram. No wonders Alt is questioning any thanks for her. Again, you are just scared of her, because you don't understends her motives, so it's easier for you to simply paint Alt as monster/scary lady. It's pretty typical to be scared of something one doesn't understand, but it doesn't mean it's accurate.

I give up, you don't read what I write
In Arasaka Tower (In Star Ending), if you listen Saul and Panam, there are civilians (in a car turned into a bomb for example).
All my quote are ingame dialogs.
But if you want to see Alt as a nice AI who cares about V / Johnny's fate, as you wish. To quote someone: "people understand what they want"

 

[Czembro]

I give up, you don't read what I write
In Arasaka Tower (In Star Ending), if you listen Saul and Panam, there are civilians (in a car turned into a bomb for example).
All my quote are ingame dialogs.
But if you want to see Alt as a nice AI who cares about V / Johnny's fate, as you wish. To quote someone: "people understand what they want"

I read what you write. You said yourself, Alt being scary is just your theory. All of your quotes of ingame dialogs are not providing enough context to unambiguously judge Alt as being malicious. They are for you, because as you said yourself, it's your theory that she is scary/bad, so you are adding your own context, so that your theory would make sense to you.

"people understand what they want"

Which is exactly what you're doing. You want for Alt to be scary, because it is in line with your view on her actions. Glad that you are at least aware of that.

 

[LeKill3rFou]

I read what you write. You said yourself, Alt being scary is just your theory. All of your quotes of ingame dialogs are not providing enough context to unambiguously judge Alt as being malicious. They are for you, because as you said yourself, it's your theory that she is scary/bad, so you are adding your own context, so that your theory would make sense to you.

-Alt kill everyone in the Arasaka tower (even the civilians) because after all, Arasaka are "the bad guys" and wanted to kill V/Johnny.
-Alt helps V/Johnny with the biochip, so she's necessarily friendly, nice and caring about their future.
For me, it's a somewhat simplistic and naive view of Alt (kind of like saying the Voodoo Boys are "nicer" than Netwatch because they help V/Johnny and Netwatch are the bad guys).
(And as far as I know, in CDPR's story, nothing is ever all black or all white)

 

[Czembro]

-Alt kill everyone in the Arasaka tower (even the civilians) because after all, Arasaka are "the bad guys" and wanted to kill V/Johnny.
-Alt helps V/Johnny with the biochip, so she's necessarily friendly, nice and caring about their future.
For me, it's a somewhat simplistic and naive view of Alt (kind of like saying the Voodoo Boys are "nicer" than Netwatch because they help V/Johnny and Netwatch are the bad guys).

• I still haven't seen any proof that the civilians were killed as well. You keep repeating that, but I still don't think it's true. Maybe if you find a video or something post it here.
• Wait, so now Alt helps them? Because before you said that she does nothing for them. You see, this is exactly what I'm talking about - you want to paint her as evil so you were even ignoring the fact that in the end, she helps one survive and takes the other with her. I'm not saying she is necessarily empathetic towards them, but ignoring that she actually tries to save V
  Spoiler

  , even though her view on how V would be saved (Soulkiller and endgram) is pretty much that V actually dies with endgram being the one who will carry V's legacy from now on (hence why she might say "Are you sure...?")
  is unfair.

And comparing Alt to Voodoo Boys is another mistake on your side. VB literally betrays V, they know very well they can't help him/her and just use V's for their own purposes to toss him/her like garbage afterwards. Alt actually tries to save V and/or Johnny, even though after entering Mikoshi she doesn't need neither of them anymore.

(And as far as I know, in CDPR's story, nothing is ever all black or all white)

And this is exactly in line with what I'm saying about Alt from the very beginning - her motivations and actions are really unknown to us, so we can't say if she is good or bad. She does her own thing, but she keeps her promise as best as she can. It doesn't make her benevolent, but she isn't definitely bad as well. You are the one calling her monster, so you are the one who tries to make her unambiguously evil.

 

[LeKill3rFou]

Last post for me here, for this subject
- Civilians : Do yourself the star ending, and listen Panam and Saul after introduce Alt into Arasaka network.
- Alt help V/Johnny : because she promise to help them IF they introduce her into Mikoshi (for destroy it). She just keeps her word, nothing more, nothing less.
-Alt says "Are you sure...?", it's in relation with "Thanks". (Are you sure to want to thanks me ?) If this answer is there, it's not just to look pretty. It's not CDPR's style. It has nothing to do with whether or not V survives by going back into his body... by the time she says that, she doesn't know V is actually going to die no matter what (she know that only after use the soulkiller on V)
If you don't agree, as you wish, subject closed

 

[Jb-104]

Oh please, spare the sanctimonious judging where everyone who doesn't think the way you do doesn't role-play...

Maybe.. JUST maybe.. some of us..
get assaulted by johnny...
have him ridicule and insult Judy..

Oh, poor little thing...

 

[northwold]

I wouldn't say that. For me, it's the most terrifying character in the game.

For some reasons:

Spoiler

- Alt kill every one in Mikoshi whitout any mercy (In Star ending, it's particularly explicit with Saul/Panam dialog)
- Alt help V, only to destroy Mikoshi. Whitout that, V could die without her moving a finger (In Sun ending, when Johnny talk to Alt, she's no longer Alt and doesn't give a damn about Johnny,V and everyone else).
- And the worst for me, If you listen well, when you said "Thank" to Alt in Mikoshi (after connecting to the access point), she answers "Are you sure...?". When i heared that, i said to myself "Oh no, what did I do !".

In my opinion, V frees a monster by helping Alt

Alt has no morality in any sense a human being would understand, feels no need to explain or justify "her" actions to anyone but herself, and is immensely powerful. Yes, she's pretty scary!

 

[LeKill3rFou]

Alt has no morality in any sense a human being would understand, feels no need to explain or justify "her" actions to anyone but herself, and is immensely powerful. Yes, she's pretty scary!

Yes
Alt considers herself (rightly or not) above humanity.
When we ask her to get off his Estale foot and explain to us. She tells us that's useless, that we could not understand... That we cherchs simple answers where there is none... That any answer who would make us feel better, would be enough for us (it's very "human").
In short, Alt does what she wants without needing to explain herself (and especially not to us poor mortal). And that, it's little scary

 

[cl656]

Yes
Alt considers herself (rightly or not) above humanity.
When we ask her to get off his Estale foot and explain to us. She tells us that's useless, that we could not understand... That we cherchs simple answers where there is none... That any answer who would make us feel better, would be enough for us (it's very "human").
In short, Alt does what she wants without needing to explain herself (and especially not to us poor mortal). And that, it's little scary

ALT is basically Skynet.
Alexa will probably be Alt one day.

 

[bcraig6010]

I think for the Johnny/V relationship to work better there need to be a few more scripted interactions that set the tone, because you have slightly jarring encounters like the one at Tom's Diner where V is rather hostile, then 60 seconds later in Human Nature V is talking to Johnny like they're longtime buddies.

All this time playing since release day and I'm still not 100% on board with the Silverhand thing. Don't like the focus the character is given, is it his story, not V's? I keep getting the impression that he's the square peg in a round hole. You have this weird disconnect where the stakes are: gotta get rid of the engram/chip of I'll die, so you do just that and then die anyway, and in one ending it was apparently appropriate to give a dead man [or his likely impaired engram] a second chance at life in a stranger's body.

In the end I feel my V became friends with Johnny because the game forced me to. Sorry, Johnny, I wouldn't take a bullet for you, no.

Maybe because it was rushed and not thought out? His role was doubled late in development which has many many affects on the game.

The fact that no matter how well or poorly you get along with Johnny - every scene with him stays the same. (except his responses to what you say in them) - but every other scene no matter your choices returns to him claiming to be your friend and how he addresses V. Try going to your car as soon as it appears and you start going help me johnny just a half hour after waking up after he tries to murder you. Vast disconnect where the game doesn't take into consideration how well you and johnny are getting along

No matter what choices you make along the way Johnny's lines and delivery in each new cut scene along the way stay the same. All the statements he makes making comments on side missions stay the same. No matter if johnny approval is 0% or 70% This is what happens when you remove player agency from the game.

Post automatically merged: May 22, 2021

the dude was talking about people who don't reject Johnny but do the Johnny friendly content anyway hating him. If you dislike or hate Johnny that is fine RP, they write a bunch of dialog with that in mind.

Also Johnny has no problem with sex workers, he specifically dislikes dolls because they give up their consciousness to a chip that makes them puppets to some one else's subconscious desires. Now, wether thats good or bad is up to each person, but for a person like Johnny who values free will, self determination and willful rebellion. And says arasaka's biggest sin is altering people's minds, its not surprising he is not a fan of doll technology.

Regardless, you are free and encouraged in some plotlines to hate Johnny.

Actually he questions helping them.. says why are we helping a bunch of whores... not people.. not individuals.. but he calls them whores.. every.. single.. scene... and questions why V is helping the "whores" as if not deserving of help
then after helping them he walks off in disgust and V immediately has a relic malfunction as Johnny is unhappy you helped mere "whores"

he shows disgust and annoyance when outside of judys after getting Evelyn and you want to give her a moment with her GF who has been through absolute horrible hell - but it annoys mr. silverhand. Why? she's a "whore"

 

[CP20771010]

In my first playtrought before going to Takemura I went to take my car.
After "Delamain ecnounter" V say "Hey Johnny u saw that?" (like we were pal)
I was like WTF just happened.
This guy (Jhonny) just wanted to kill me, and now I speak to him like we are friends?
In that point I already new I was forced to became his friend in the end.

 

[northwold]

• I still haven't seen any proof that the civilians were killed as well. You keep repeating that, but I still don't think it's true. Maybe if you find a video or something post it here.
• Wait, so now Alt helps them? Because before you said that she does nothing for them. You see, this is exactly what I'm talking about - you want to paint her as evil so you were even ignoring the fact that in the end, she helps one survive and takes the other with her. I'm not saying she is necessarily empathetic towards them, but ignoring that she actually tries to save V
  Spoiler

  , even though her view on how V would be saved (Soulkiller and endgram) is pretty much that V actually dies with endgram being the one who will carry V's legacy from now on (hence why she might say "Are you sure...?")
  is unfair.

And comparing Alt to Voodoo Boys is another mistake on your side. VB literally betrays V, they know very well they can't help him/her and just use V's for their own purposes to toss him/her like garbage afterwards. Alt actually tries to save V and/or Johnny, even though after entering Mikoshi she doesn't need neither of them anymore.


And this is exactly in line with what I'm saying about Alt from the very beginning - her motivations and actions are really unknown to us, so we can't say if she is good or bad. She does her own thing, but she keeps her promise as best as she can. It doesn't make her benevolent, but she isn't definitely bad as well. You are the one calling her monster, so you are the one who tries to make her unambiguously evil.

In several of the endings the companions and V make a big deal of the fact Alt has used Arasaka security systems to wipe out unarmed civilians to get you to the core safely. If you walk around the areas rather than heading straight to the Mikoshi, you can both scan corpses and hear dialogue about it.