[SPOILERS] Evelyn Parker, wasted potential! Your Thoughts?

[tavellone]

You probably missed the part of the story, where things don't go the way the players wants for pretty much the whole game?

I'm not sure I understand why you are addressing me? I didn't say that this doesn't happen in the game, quite the opposite. I stated here and in the other thread that the OP made that games shouldn't feed players what they want and that it is good that this game doesn't do that.

I made an assumption that the OP is disappointed that you couldn't save Evelyn, given that he said some shit about paladinhood and my post was responding to that. Allowing your character to be some superhero that saves the day would be cheap shitty writing and this game does not do this, not should it.

 

[Hammerstein]

I'm not sure I understand why you are addressing me? I didn't say that this doesn't happen in the game, quite the opposite. I stated here and in the other thread that the OP made that games shouldn't feed players what they want and that it is good that this game doesn't do that.

I made an assumption that the OP is disappointed that you couldn't save Evelyn, given that he said some shit about paladinhood and my post was responding to that. Allowing your character to be some superhero that saves the day would be cheap shitty writing and this game does not do this, not should it.

Our protagonist is not even able to save their own life and V is at the mercy of greater forces for most of the main story. V is constantly being lied to by the likes of Hanako or AI Alt, with no options to retaliate. The only "power fantasy" in Cyberpunk is that you can gun down hordes of street thugs, a shallow experience.

You know what else is cheap writing? Edginess for edginess' sake, the whole game is full of awful antagonists, with rape, child murder, torture, snuff porn, mutilation and so on. Throwing Evelyn into the dumpster, as just another random corpse on the growing pile, was a bad decision - cause they threw away a chance at continuing a storyline featuring one of the more interesting characters in the game.

And it also makes V and Judy look like complete pieces of shit, for the reasons I stated in my previous post.

What makes it worse is that the characters we get to know during the prologue and before The Heist, are way more interesting and fleshed out than most of the characters that get introduced later.

It's the Game of Thrones problem - a writer trying to be edgy and grimdark, kills off half the roster in the first books. And is then incapable to fill in the gaps that were created, cause all the replacements are lame.

 

[_Fender_]

I think her death was very well written and yes, she was very intersting character which would be nice go explore deeper, but it doesnt mean that those kind or roles have to live on. It gives more drama and suprise element so I was enjoying her whole plot and how it went on.

Remember that V talk to her once so there was no special connection between them really.

Still still got way more attention and drama than any of nomads death where you dont really give a damn.

 

[tavellone]

Our protagonist is not even able to save their own life and V is at the mercy of greater forces for most of the main story. V is constantly being lied to by the likes of Hanako or AI Alt, with no options to retaliate. The only "power fantasy" in Cyberpunk is that you can gun down hordes of street thugs, a shallow experience.



You know what else is cheap writing? Edginess for edginess' sake, the whole game is full of awful antagonists, with rape, child murder, torture, snuff porn, mutilation and so on. Throwing Evelyn into the dumpster, as just another random corpse on the growing pile, was a bad decision - cause they threw away a chance at continuing a storyline featuring one of the more interesting characters in the game.



What makes it worse is that the characters we get to know during the prologue and before The Heist, are way more interesting and fleshed out than most of the characters that get introduced later.



It's the Game of Thrones problem - a writer trying to be edgy and grimdark, kills off half the roster in the first books. And is then incapable to fill in the gaps that were created, cause all the replacements are lame.

I don't think Evelyn dying is cheap or edgy. The whole point of the scene with Judy calling for her body to be disposed of was to point out that in that world she is just another random corpse. Only the hyper rich are able to be treat with any dignity, she was a prostitute. I think it was a good way to get this point across. Like I said, I think the writing here suffers from being unfinished. It seems to me that her character development, much like Jackie's has been removed, but her dying in and of itself isn't bad writing.



I also don't really agree that having all what you listed is being edgy for the sake of it or that it is cheap writing inherently, especially given that Night City is supposed to be a depraved place. Now, I will agree that some aspects of these subjects is pretty cheaply written. I don't like the stupid advertisements or the unviewable braindance names. I don't think it is as bad as game of thrones, though I admit the bodycount of characters from the prologue is quite ridiculous, it seems to me that there is a lot missing from the first part of the game. Maybe I am wrong, I don't think the writing in this game is particularly phenomenal and has a lot of issues, but I don't see any inherent issue with Evelyn's character dying. Frankly I thought the deaths of Jackie and T-bug were much cheaper. I mean who the fuck is T-bug anyway? She may as well not have been a character at all. That was cheap and stupid.

Also I don't quite agree with your point about Judy and V not giving a shit. I know that in the actual game you can easily make a lot of money, but Judy clearly is poor and V is supposed to be poor narratively as well. It is a failure of gameplay that you can literally be a millionaire and still have the character act like they are struggling. Red dead Redemption 2 had the same problem and that does gripe me, but we have to go under the assumption that narratively neither can afford healthcare for Evelyn. I don't see what else either of them could have done in that situation as they couldn't afford to give her healthcare. Also from that point on Judy is a severely depressed person and her whole motivation from that point on is to enact revenge on the people that did this to Evelyn. Not the actions of someone who doesn't give a shit. As for V not caring, well I agree that V's character is way too restricted in how you control their motivations and this is a problem I have with the game overall, however just for the sake of playing devil's advocate, why would s/he necessarily give a shit about Evelyn? S/he knew her for all but five minutes and essentially got V killed because of her stupid ham hashed plan, even asking V to betray Dexter. Frankly I can see why V would not care about Evelyn, she had a bad plan that went to shit and her response to V's questions about the efficacy of the plan or the idea about betraying Dexter was 'ah don't worry about it'. She even betrayed the Voodoo Boys, which is hilarious. She tried to screw over multiple powerful groups as one person without any serious strategy and ended up getting crushed by it. I think to that extent, it was very unlikely Evelyn would end up any other way. At the very least I saw Evelyn as a serious hindrance.

I agree with a lot about what you are saying in terms of the narrative design, but I don't think Evelyn's character arc is a particularly egregious case of an bad writing, though thinking about what you said I will agree it is somewhat a case of bad role playing, though CDPR have realised that they failed to make an RPG and have been calling Cyberpunk an action adventure for the past few months.

Frankly I agree with most of what you say, but I don't have a huge problem with the way Evelyn's story turns out at least from a general narrative perspective.

As a side note, I realise now why you addressed me. My original post was directed at the thread starter, not at you, sorry for the confusion.

 

[kthompsen]

I think this is one of my biggest dissapointment with the game to be completely honest. One of the reasons why I loved CDPr products were the way they built up characters and how they used them to tell intricate stories.
While the characters are still great in CP77, most of them feel wasted potentional, including the protagonist, V.

Everything about this game is a waste of potential. Except Johnny Silverhand. Even the whole city itself. I wish I was exaggerating or talking about some parody.

Post automatically merged: Feb 9, 2021

that the OP made that games shouldn't feed players what they want and that it is good that this game doesn't do that.

Ideally, games are supposed to reflect story changes based on performance. Not simply give all players what they want. Just reward people who don't suck. No different than winning more chips in poker. You don't give everyone more chips. You give the winner more chips. Same should go with a heavily narrative based game like this. Adjust the story according to performance.

RPGs increasingly changed though when the industry started hiring more and more writers who aspired more towards Hollywood or novel writing. They brought in all of the formulas from those mediums into a field where it never belonged. The industry is now flooded with bad "moviegames", written by writers who only think about themselves as the drivers of the story, and not the performance of players. One little adjustment on this issue alone would improve something like Evelyn's story. For example, if you did Judy's questline first instead of Rogue's at the beginning of Act 2, you could tally up chances of possibly changing some of Evelyn's fate - or at least, the details of the story (you could also put penalties on Rogue's quest if you don't do it early enough, where Panam finds herself in a worse situation by trying to go after the Wraiths alone). But since the writers only care about themselves, it'll never change, no matter what order or how quickly you complete Judy's quests.

I don't expect this to be done across the board, but it could and has been done on major characters. Even Bioware did that much, in a railroaded game like ME3. You could wait too long to do the Grissom station quest, and Cerberus would end up kidnapping the kids and Jack. You'd later find them tortured and turned into indoctrinated slaves at the end of the game. But if you did it quickly enough, you saved the kids, and if you romanced Jack, got a lot of great content there too.

 

[Ayinde_Palmer]

Yeah because in the Judy questline you get to indirectly learn more about Evelyn, her background, her strengths and weaknesses of character, and you do learn a whole lot about her there actually, and you can start to make a judgement about her as a human being and to care about her. None of which is present with T-bug or Jackie - like I can't really make an informed opinion of Jackie or T-bug and what types of people they really were. Like, ok I "get them" on the surface maybe, but I never really get to know how they would act when put between a rock and a hard place, and still have some degree of control to act a certain way (because in the Heist things were pretty much spontaneous and everyone was reacting rather than acting). I thing such it is in the later - when one can act and not just react that defines character.

did you ever do the Jackie funeral. We never get as clear a picture as with Evelyn, but through the funeral, the openings, conversations with misty and mama Welles, we get a decent idea of Jackie I think

Post automatically merged: Feb 9, 2021

I don't think Evelyn dying is cheap or edgy. The whole point of the scene with Judy calling for her body to be disposed of was to point out that in that world she is just another random corpse. Only the hyper rich are able to be treat with any dignity, she was a prostitute. I think it was a good way to get this point across. Like I said, I think the writing here suffers from being unfinished. It seems to me that her character development, much like Jackie's has been removed, but her dying in and of itself isn't bad writing.



I also don't really agree that having all what you listed is being edgy for the sake of it or that it is cheap writing inherently, especially given that Night City is supposed to be a depraved place. Now, I will agree that some aspects of these subjects is pretty cheaply written. I don't like the stupid advertisements or the unviewable braindance names. I don't think it is as bad as game of thrones, though I admit the bodycount of characters from the prologue is quite ridiculous, it seems to me that there is a lot missing from the first part of the game. Maybe I am wrong, I don't think the writing in this game is particularly phenomenal and has a lot of issues, but I don't see any inherent issue with Evelyn's character dying. Frankly I thought the deaths of Jackie and T-bug were much cheaper. I mean who the fuck is T-bug anyway? She may as well not have been a character at all. That was cheap and stupid.

Also I don't quite agree with your point about Judy and V not giving a shit. I know that in the actual game you can easily make a lot of money, but Judy clearly is poor and V is supposed to be poor narratively as well. It is a failure of gameplay that you can literally be a millionaire and still have the character act like they are struggling. Red dead Redemption 2 had the same problem and that does gripe me, but we have to go under the assumption that narratively neither can afford healthcare for Evelyn. I don't see what else either of them could have done in that situation as they couldn't afford to give her healthcare. Also from that point on Judy is a severely depressed person and her whole motivation from that point on is to enact revenge on the people that did this to Evelyn. Not the actions of someone who doesn't give a shit. As for V not caring, well I agree that V's character is way too restricted in how you control their motivations and this is a problem I have with the game overall, however just for the sake of playing devil's advocate, why would s/he necessarily give a shit about Evelyn? S/he knew her for all but five minutes and essentially got V killed because of her stupid ham hashed plan, even asking V to betray Dexter. Frankly I can see why V would not care about Evelyn, she had a bad plan that went to shit and her response to V's questions about the efficacy of the plan or the idea about betraying Dexter was 'ah don't worry about it'. She even betrayed the Voodoo Boys, which is hilarious. She tried to screw over multiple powerful groups as one person without any serious strategy and ended up getting crushed by it. I think to that extent, it was very unlikely Evelyn would end up any other way. At the very least I saw Evelyn as a serious hindrance.

I agree with a lot about what you are saying in terms of the narrative design, but I don't think Evelyn's character arc is a particularly egregious case of an bad writing, though thinking about what you said I will agree it is somewhat a case of bad role playing, though CDPR have realised that they failed to make an RPG and have been calling Cyberpunk an action adventure for the past few months.

Frankly I agree with most of what you say, but I don't have a huge problem with the way Evelyn's story turns out at least from a general narrative perspective.

As a side note, I realise now why you addressed me. My original post was directed at the thread starter, not at you, sorry for the confusion.

I think V is actually doing pretty well, especially mid/late story. hes not top class, but he can make a lot of money, the problem is his job is pretty dangerous. (he basically died like 3 times in 3 weeks). I think Judy actually is OK as well. in our world my guess is she's making like 50k+

Post automatically merged: Feb 9, 2021

When replaying pre-heist missions and later Judy's storyline, I keep thinking how big of an wasted potential is Evelyn Parker as a character and her storyline.
The real kicker is that Evelyn's final fate is not necessary to drive Judy's story.
Worst-case scenario attempted suicide would've worked just as well (even if she survives just in a vegetative state).
Best-case scenario Evelyn's survival and recovery could open up possibilities of her involvement in the revenge plot not only against Woodman but also Voodoo Boys.
IMHO Evelyn Parker could have been this game's Keira Metz instead, we get a linear tragic tale that drives another storyline.
Somewhere between 2016 and 2020 CDPR forgot how to design interconnected non-linear storylines.

Your Thoughts?

I think Evelyn fulfilled her potential as a charachter, Shes a bit of a character you have to investigate, but we get a pretty clear picture of how things would have went. They could have wrote her differently, but what would the story gain? Like in a failed suicide/vegatable what is added to the story? I mean I found it sad, and wished it didnt go down the way it did, but thats the point of a story like her's right? its a tradgedy.

I think if things didn't go the way they did though, she'd probably be an enemy to most of you. Its highly likely she would have betrayed V. Her goal was clearly to get as much money as possible, burn all bridges, and disappear, possibly with Judy.

 

[tru3story]

For me it was the shocking bit: to see someone so driven to basically organize the Heist to attempt and create a better future not only for themselves (for Judy, too) and then getting so reduced by the traumatic events, so the only way out was ultimate self destruction (even though, she knew the Heist succeeded! ).

Evelyn can remain a tragic character (fine by me), but there could've been more to this. She deserved more 'screen time'

 

[Guest 4375874]

For me it was the shocking bit: to see someone so driven to basically organize the Heist to attempt and create a better future not only for themselves (for Judy, too) and then getting so reduced by the traumatic events, so the only way out was ultimate self destruction (even though, she knew the Heist succeeded! ).

Evelyn can remain a tragic character (fine by me), but there could've been more to this. She deserved more 'screen time'

But that is kinda the point, to see the dark side of what being a doll means and BD by extension. If her story didn't go this way she would be a mostly forgettable character that people wouldn't really care enough about. There would be no point in giving her more screen time because her tragic story already had the intended effect, that's why this topic exists. Because it was just enough

 

[Moonroccs]

eve was set to take off and run off. you think ripping off arasaka, voodoo boys and dex would be a good idea. oh let me stick around nite city. Eves character had the same fate saskia did in witcher 2. theyre just catalyst for a bigger plot. also the story would have been short, because eve was planning to sell the relic to the voodoo boys since they wanted the relic in the first place and just skip the entire game story

 

[LeKill3rFou]

eve was set to take off and run off. you think ripping off arasaka, voodoo boys and dex would be a good idea. oh let me stick around nite city. Eves character had the same fate saskia did in witcher 2. theyre just catalyst for a bigger plot. also the story would have been short, because eve was planning to sell the relic to the voodoo boys since they wanted the relic in the first place and just skip the entire game story

Hu, you have played CP ?
Evy simply had to film a BD for the Voodoo Boys, but she wanted to sell the Relic to Netwatch (you can find a message in the computer in the GIM)

 

[Moonroccs]

Hu, you have played CP ?
Evy simply had to film a BD for the Voodoo Boys, but she wanted to sell the Relic to Netwatch (you can find a message in the computer in the GIM)

oh your right about that, i mixed up that part. i remember now and Mr hands was also a potential buyer. but like i said eve would been hunted down by extremely power groups that would want the relic or revenge for cutting out the middle man. also wouldnt have romance option with judy if you played a female V. like i said she had to die or else she would have just lead V to netwatch and sold out V like she cut out Dex and just run off with judy maybe? nah she would have ditched judy too just disappear all together. eve is greedy though. she used everyone to get what she wanted in the end and in the end she got fried to hell.

 

[LeKill3rFou]

In a message in Judy's computer, Evy told Judy that she found a way out of Night City and that they could live quietly elsewhere (Judy could continue to edit / create BD without having to worry about money or anything else). So Evy would never have given up Judy (for V, we don't know). And if she had sold the Relic to Netwatch they would have received new identities, protection and money (well if Netwatch kept their word, which is not sure)
But yes, sadly Evy must Die for the story

 

[AikoHayashi]

In a message in Judy's computer, Evy told Judy that she found a way out of Night City and that they could live quietly elsewhere (Judy could continue to edit / create BD without having to worry about money or anything else). So Evy would never have given up Judy (for V, we don't know). And if she had sold the Relic to Netwatch they would have received new identities, protection and money (well if Netwatch kept their word, which is not sure)
But yes, sadly Evy must Die for the story

I'm not sure how much Evelyn cared for Judy. In the beginning, Evelyn tells V about Judy

Spoiler

...But she is a Max, not the latest member of our crew. Try not to forget. ... keep that tongue on a leash.

 

[LeKill3rFou]

I'm not sure how much Evelyn cared for Judy. In the beginning, Evelyn tells V about Judy

Spoiler

...But she is a Max, not the latest member of our crew. Try not to forget. ... keep that tongue on a leash.

Evy said (if i remember correctly and if my english is not too bad) :
"Judy has always been there for me, I trust her and she's a Mox, so... bla bla... your last member of your team".
And on all message in Judy's computer, we feel that Evy really cares about Judy

 

[DC9V]

They probably wanted to nib things in the bud* so we don't expect too much when it comes to future DLCs. Same with Jackie.

*is this an adequate circumlocution for: to prevent expectations (by letting her die early)? I'm not a native english speaker...

 

[tru3story]

But that is kinda the point, to see the dark side of what being a doll means and BD by extension. If her story didn't go this way she would be a mostly forgettable character that people wouldn't really care enough about. There would be no point in giving her more screen time because her tragic story already had the intended effect, that's why this topic exists. Because it was just enough

True that. Makes sense. It's just a little conflicting (for me), as I liked the character, but did not care that much about her at the same time. If not her relation to Judy, she'd be nothing more but a strong tragic side mission. But she made the Heist happen - I wanted to get to know her better. (or maybe I just need to read more emails in game xD )
But..maybe it was enough. As it already has intended effect, as you mentioned.

 

[bcraig6010]

Our protagonist is not even able to save their own life and V is at the mercy of greater forces for most of the main story. V is constantly being lied to by the likes of Hanako or AI Alt, with no options to retaliate. The only "power fantasy" in Cyberpunk is that you can gun down hordes of street thugs, a shallow experience.

You know what else is cheap writing? Edginess for edginess' sake, the whole game is full of awful antagonists, with rape, child murder, torture, snuff porn, mutilation and so on. Throwing Evelyn into the dumpster, as just another random corpse on the growing pile, was a bad decision - cause they threw away a chance at continuing a storyline featuring one of the more interesting characters in the game.

And it also makes V and Judy look like complete pieces of shit, for the reasons I stated in my previous post.

What makes it worse is that the characters we get to know during the prologue and before The Heist, are way more interesting and fleshed out than most of the characters that get introduced later.

It's the Game of Thrones problem - a writer trying to be edgy and grimdark, kills off half the roster in the first books. And is then incapable to fill in the gaps that were created, cause all the replacements are lame.

Almost like the game we saw the the extended preview years ago was vastly changed from that time? Change camera angle to force total reanimating of scenes and possible cutting, doubling Silverhands role making more edits, cuts and rewrites...

One can easily envision a game were the Jackie, T-Bug, Evelyn characters and storylines were far longer with much deeper delving.

 

[AikoHayashi]

Almost like the game we saw the the extended preview years ago was vastly changed from that time? Change camera angle to force total reanimating of scenes and possible cutting, doubling Silverhands role making more edits, cuts and rewrites...

One can easily envision a game were the Jackie, T-Bug, Evelyn characters and storylines were far longer with much deeper delving.

Doubled the part of Silverhand, changed the story... That is very interesting. Can you tell us more about this, please? Always nice to hear firsthand experience!

 

[bcraig6010]

Doubled the part of Silverhand, changed the story... That is very interesting. Pawel Sasko confirmed that they didn't plan a bigger role for Evelyn and Jackie, but probably you know better than him. Can you tell us more about this, please? Always nice to hear firsthand experience!

Such snark!! Bring it.

For a game released so unfinished do you honestly think the were able to finish all the scenes they had in mind when switching from 3rd person to 1st person?
Do you honestly think there were not changes and rewrites when they expended the silverhand role? By the very definition of expanding the role and lines (please see Keanu's own interview ) things will change in the story.

But then again is you want to take everything CDPR told us as gospel well I'm sure there was just an imaginary in my own head reaction to CDPR releasing a complete full game that was not unfinished and not laden with bugs and issues and CDPR never EVER had to release any I'm sorry messages anywhere after saying the game was finished and would absolutely work on old consoles.

 

[AikoHayashi]

Such snark!! Bring it.

For a game released so unfinished do you honestly think the were able to finish all the scenes they had in mind when switching from 3rd person to 1st person?
Do you honestly think there were not changes and rewrites when they expended the silverhand role? By the very definition of expanding the role and lines (please see Keanu's own interview ) things will change in the story.

But then again is you want to take everything CDPR told us as gospel well I'm sure there was just an imaginary in my own head reaction to CDPR releasing a complete full game that was not unfinished and not laden with bugs and issues and CDPR never EVER had to release any I'm sorry messages anywhere after saying the game was finished and would absolutely work on old consoles.

I still don't see what this has to do with Evelyn's role in the game.