Question about Arasaka/Mikoshi ending (spoilers)

+
Hey guys,

After recently completing the Arasaka ending I have these lingering questions I'd love to discuss and get other peoples thoughts on. I don't know if this is a plot hole, an intentional display of Arasaka's shadiness, or just me missing something, but I'm a bit puzzled.
So obviously, in the Arasaka ending, we find out Saburo had a copy of his consciousness saved in Mikoshi, and later it's used to revive himself in the body of his son. OK, that's great and all, but this means there was a copy of Saburo saved in Mikoshi for backup, while he was still alive? How was this possible? I thought Soukiller is the only way to create the engram, so did he have two engrams made, with one being put immediately back in his body and the other getting stored in Mikoshi? That feels like the only logical explanation to me...
So, if that was the case, why couldn't they do something similar for V in the end? If Saburo could somehow be alive and conscious while having an engram of himself stored away and saved for a rainy day, why did V have to literally halt their entire existence? Why couldn't they just keep a copy of V in Mikoshi, let V live out whatever time they had left, then revive their engram in a new body after they died, just like they did for Saburo?
Someone please help me make it make sense haha
 
Ok, it's my point of view (it could be interpreted differently)

-For Saburo : Arasaka have certainly used the same method that Liam wanted to use on Lizzie in "Violence". Probably a new version of SoulKiller (compared to the one used on johnny 50 years earlier). A version that could be used "simply" for a saving engram.

-For V : His body has been definitly modified by the biochip (nanites) and his brain can no longer function independently of it (unfortunately as Hellman said). So for V, it is either to enter mikoshi and "abandon" his body, or to stay that way but die (no other alternative). While Saburo was able to do so thanks to the similarity of his son's DNA. (i don't know if it's clear) :)
 
-For V : His body has been definitly modified by the biochip (nanites) and his brain can no longer function independently of it (unfortunately as Hellman said). So for V, it is either to enter mikoshi and "abandon" his body, or to stay that way but die (no other alternative). While Saburo was able to do so thanks to the similarity of his son's DNA. (i don't know if it's clear) :)

... and V die 3 times all along the story ( Dex's bullet, Voodoo boys who fry your brains and a third one I can't remember. But I remember exclaiming "oh but you actually die three times! ". As soon as i remember i'll come bacjk to you with this one ! ) which causes irreparable damages to his neural connections that are "repaired" by the biochip.

I ask myself a question.... If you try the Mikoshi's endding, do you think V will be replace in a new body like some clone or such....?
 
Ok, it's my point of view (it could be interpreted differently)

-For Saburo : Arasaka have certainly used the same method that Liam wanted to use on Lizzie in "Violence". Probably a new version of SoulKiller (compared to the one used on johnny 50 years earlier). A version that could be used "simply" for a saving engram.

-For V : His body has been definitly modified by the biochip (nanites) and his brain can no longer function independently of it (unfortunately as Hellman said). So for V, it is either to enter mikoshi and "abandon" his body, or to stay that way but die (no other alternative). While Saburo was able to do so thanks to the similarity of his son's DNA. (i don't know if it's clear) :)
I figured there is a way that the engram can be created without killing the person, so that still begs the question, why can't that be done to V? I know that V's body is already dying and all, but couldn't they just copy their soul, and let them stay in their body as long as possible to maybe try to find a cure, and keep the engram to use as a last resort? Either way, finding a new body for V to inhabit will be a significant challenge...but I still don't get why they couldn't let V stay in their body til they died, if the engram is able to be made and stored without killing them :/ rather than keeping V in soul prison and away from their loved ones
Post automatically merged:

... and V die 3 times all along the story ( Dex's bullet, Voodoo boys who fry your brains and a third one I can't remember. But I remember exclaiming "oh but you actually die three times! ". As soon as i remember i'll come bacjk to you with this one ! ) which causes irreparable damages to his neural connections that are "repaired" by the biochip.

I ask myself a question.... If you try the Mikoshi's endding, do you think V will be replace in a new body like some clone or such....?
That's what I still don't understand though. I thought the whole point of "Secure Your Soul" is to create a backup of your consciousness so that if anything happens to you, you can be brought back in a new body (I imagine it would have to be a clone in the average persons case since most people won't have their children murdered like Saburo lol). So why couldn't Arasaka make a copy of V, and then let them return to Earth, to live their life how they want and maybe try to find another solution? That way, V's consciousness isn't trapped in limbo, they can still live and be with their loved ones, and when they do ultimately die, Arasaka still has the engram to bring back in a new body. The more I think about it, the more I don't understand why the choice had to be one or the other, except for dramatic effect
 
Last edited:
just my conclusion on the topic
think of it in computer terms " copy" instead of "cut"....the whole concept is centered around the idea of organic to binary conversion so the commands we are all familiar with would/could be applied to a much more advanced system
Alt's "soul killer" was 1.0 not the final system...Arasaka would never take it as completed or perfected ...everything has potential for "more" and with their resources it becomes a very dangerously potentiated app with who knows how many new iterations
 
Hey guys,

After recently completing the Arasaka ending I have these lingering questions I'd love to discuss and get other peoples thoughts on. I don't know if this is a plot hole, an intentional display of Arasaka's shadiness, or just me missing something, but I'm a bit puzzled.
So obviously, in the Arasaka ending, we find out Saburo had a copy of his consciousness saved in Mikoshi, and later it's used to revive himself in the body of his son. OK, that's great and all, but this means there was a copy of Saburo saved in Mikoshi for backup, while he was still alive? How was this possible? I thought Soukiller is the only way to create the engram, so did he have two engrams made, with one being put immediately back in his body and the other getting stored in Mikoshi? That feels like the only logical explanation to me...
So, if that was the case, why couldn't they do something similar for V in the end? If Saburo could somehow be alive and conscious while having an engram of himself stored away and saved for a rainy day, why did V have to literally halt their entire existence? Why couldn't they just keep a copy of V in Mikoshi, let V live out whatever time they had left, then revive their engram in a new body after they died, just like they did for Saburo?
Someone please help me make it make sense haha

I don't know if V's main body dies if he gets soul killed, but its just the end of the story. Most likely that plotline would follow the engram of V's narrative. Much like the last scene we see in every other ending is also not the end, V probably still exists afterward.

The current soul killer doesn't require the killing of the original, as far as we know. They sell it to celebreties. That said, I'm not sure its as effective, the shard/email talking about it suggest that sometimes it fails and the engram is crazy or doesn't take. Thats maybe not as big a deal since they can try again if the Customer is alive.
Post automatically merged:

just my conclusion on the topic
think of it in computer terms " copy" instead of "cut"....the whole concept is centered around the idea of organic to binary conversion so the commands we are all familiar with would/could be applied to a much more advanced system
Alt's "soul killer" was 1.0 not the final system...Arasaka would never take it as completed or perfected ...everything has potential for "more" and with their resources it becomes a very dangerously potentiated app with who knows how many new iterations

actually alt's was 2.0 and they never got their hands on it, until the arasaka ending maybe (if V gave it/her to hanako as they asked) the current one is a version made by hanako, based on the original technology. The one they wanted alt to make, is currently part of alt, and can soul kill anyone anywhere in the old net she has access to. (its mobile, the old one they have to take them to a specific facility designed to hold all the data)

but yeah, you are right its a different and improved version as compared to the one they used on Johnny. Its more accurate to the original supposedly, and doesn't require killing, which was not necessarily ever supposed to be the case (from alt's original idea). However we don't have all the details, it is theoretically possible there are trade offs with the non fatal soulkiller version.
 
Last edited:
I thought when Alt was plugged in and "lost"..( during J.S. sequence ) that was when the acquisition of soul killer happened if not how did they later use it on Johnny?
 
I figured there is a way that the engram can be created without killing the person, so that still begs the question, why can't that be done to V? I know that V's body is already dying and all, but couldn't they just copy their soul, and let them stay in their body as long as possible to maybe try to find a cure, and keep the engram to use as a last resort? Either way, finding a new body for V to inhabit will be a significant challenge...but I still don't get why they couldn't let V stay in their body til they died, if the engram is able to be made and stored without killing them :/ rather than keeping V in soul prison and away from their loved ones
Important detail ;)
V is not Saburo, he does not represent anything in the eyes of Arasaka. Goro tell V that Hanako has already forgotten. V have not money for eventually to finance "Secure your soul". (reserved to the richest among the richest ).
If I understood correctly, to hear Goro, it is already a generous offer that Arasaka makes to V (join Mikoshi while waiting for a hypotethic solution)
 
Last edited:
I thought when Alt was plugged in and "lost"..( during J.S. sequence ) that was when the acquisition of soul killer happened if not how did they later use it on Johnny?

basically when alt was kidnapped, Arasaka already had soulkiller technology, but it was big, and slow, they needed a whole building to do it. It was also about 60-70% accurate to the original. They had to bring the person to the location. They wanted a faster mobile soulkiller technology where they could soulkill anyone connected to the Net. So they kidnapped Alt, she made the better version, she knew they were going to use it on her so she made herself the sole controller. When they used it on her, she attached her engram to the soulkiller AI. Johnny didnt realize she was an engram until 10 years later. At that point arasaka captured her AI. Thats when he attacked Arasaka the second time.

So essentially they soul killed Johnny with generation 1 technology. Hanako, after that studied Alt's work, and the other creator, and came up with her own improved version over the course of 50 years. However, they never got the functionality of the Alt AI level soulkiller. Of course since the net was abandoned, her skillset was less useful.

so there is like two different evolutions of the soulkiller program. the Alt version. and the Hanako version. Johnny got hit with the ancient version, the precursor to both the Alt and Hanako versions.

Alt can soulkill remotely, Hanako version still needs the person to go to a facility
 
Hey guys,

After recently completing the Arasaka ending I have these lingering questions I'd love to discuss and get other peoples thoughts on. I don't know if this is a plot hole, an intentional display of Arasaka's shadiness, or just me missing something, but I'm a bit puzzled.
So obviously, in the Arasaka ending, we find out Saburo had a copy of his consciousness saved in Mikoshi, and later it's used to revive himself in the body of his son. OK, that's great and all, but this means there was a copy of Saburo saved in Mikoshi for backup, while he was still alive? How was this possible? I thought Soukiller is the only way to create the engram, so did he have two engrams made, with one being put immediately back in his body and the other getting stored in Mikoshi? That feels like the only logical explanation to me...
So, if that was the case, why couldn't they do something similar for V in the end? If Saburo could somehow be alive and conscious while having an engram of himself stored away and saved for a rainy day, why did V have to literally halt their entire existence? Why couldn't they just keep a copy of V in Mikoshi, let V live out whatever time they had left, then revive their engram in a new body after they died, just like they did for Saburo?
Someone please help me make it make sense haha

It is possible indeed, but I guess V's brain is too damaged.
 
Last edited:
so there is like two different evolutions of the soulkiller program. the Alt version. and the Hanako version. Johnny got hit with the ancient version, the precursor to both the Alt and Hanako versions.
Totally agree, except on one point. Not Hanako, but Saburo's version of soulkiller :)
 
I figured there is a way that the engram can be created without killing the person, so that still begs the question, why can't that be done to V? I know that V's body is already dying and all, but couldn't they just copy their soul, and let them stay in their body as long as possible to maybe try to find a cure, and keep the engram to use as a last resort? Either way, finding a new body for V to inhabit will be a significant challenge...but I still don't get why they couldn't let V stay in their body til they died, if the engram is able to be made and stored without killing them :/ rather than keeping V in soul prison and away from their loved ones
Post automatically merged:


That's what I still don't understand though. I thought the whole point of "Secure Your Soul" is to create a backup of your consciousness so that if anything happens to you, you can be brought back in a new body (I imagine it would have to be a clone in the average persons case since most people won't have their children murdered like Saburo lol). So why couldn't Arasaka make a copy of V, and then let them return to Earth, to live their life how they want and maybe try to find another solution? That way, V's consciousness isn't trapped in limbo, they can still live and be with their loved ones, and when they do ultimately die, Arasaka still has the engram to bring back in a new body. The more I think about it, the more I don't understand why the choice had to be one or the other, except for dramatic effect
In my opinion, "secure your soul" is a formula for advertising. As Hanako half explains, it is not meant to be a real persona (you realise that when you comes to talk to jacky !) but a copy of the memories that reproduce more or less a personality. We must not forget that the first goal of this program is to be sold and, we know it well, the advertising always lies !

V case is an exception because of Johnny and because of the circonstences.
Saburo is really the first one to fully benefit from this technology and to be transplanted.
Moreover the pnj explain it well: the technology does not allow them to unravel the personality of V and the traces that Johnny left to keep only V and to make a copy of it, the process would kill him since the connections of replacement which were made in the brain of V have a clean signature. They explain that it takes time for the Arasaka researchers to deal with this problem.
Besides, the contract that V signs if he accepts to be stored in Mikoshi while waiting for the researchers to achieve this feat obliges him to literally give up his humanity (he gives up his legal rights as a person and this is very symbolic).

Saburo has not been invested with a second consciousness which replaced his spirit, he died only once and his "transfer" happened differently since Yorinibu was sacrificed.
One comes to wonder then, to what extent Saburo had planned to be killed by his son that evening at Kompeki? And then we have the right to ask ourselves another question : We think that Hanako has hesitations about the guilt of her brother but couldn't these hesitations come from the fact that she knew ? And so she wonders about the sacrifice which is planned for Yorinobu and especially about the relevance of offering immortality to her father ? because it is Hanako's responsibility to make Saboru Arasaka the immortal god he is trying to be by sacrificing his son. .... Very mythical !
 
(you realise that when you comes to talk to jacky !)
For jackie, it's not the same :(
It's an engram made from a dead poeple, not complete but still an engram (Goro's words).

One comes to wonder then, to what extent Saburo had planned to be killed by his son that evening at Kompeki? And then we have the right to ask ourselves another question : We think that Hanako has hesitations about the guilt of her brother but couldn't these hesitations come from the fact that she knew ? And so she wonders about the sacrifice which is planned for Yorinobu and especially about the relevance of offering immortality to her father ? because it is Hanako's responsibility to make Saboru Arasaka the immortal god he is trying to be by sacrificing his son. .... Very mythical !
She's the Arasaka's heart and she know where is her place (and she don't want to change it). And she discuss with Saburo's engram after his dead, the plan was certainly planned at this moment (or maybe early in Saburo mind) :)
"Make the good choices with incomplete knowledge, that's what it takes to become the most powerful man in the world" (also Goro's Words)

And since the relic is a special order from Saburo, he must have considered "kicking" someone out of his body before his own dead :)
 
In my opinion, "secure your soul" is a formula for advertising. As Hanako half explains, it is not meant to be a real persona (you realise that when you comes to talk to jacky !) but a copy of the memories that reproduce more or less a personality. We must not forget that the first goal of this program is to be sold and, we know it well, the advertising always lies !

V case is an exception because of Johnny and because of the circonstences.
Saburo is really the first one to fully benefit from this technology and to be transplanted.
Moreover the pnj explain it well: the technology does not allow them to unravel the personality of V and the traces that Johnny left to keep only V and to make a copy of it, the process would kill him since the connections of replacement which were made in the brain of V have a clean signature. They explain that it takes time for the Arasaka researchers to deal with this problem.
Besides, the contract that V signs if he accepts to be stored in Mikoshi while waiting for the researchers to achieve this feat obliges him to literally give up his humanity (he gives up his legal rights as a person and this is very symbolic).

Saburo has not been invested with a second consciousness which replaced his spirit, he died only once and his "transfer" happened differently since Yorinibu was sacrificed.
One comes to wonder then, to what extent Saburo had planned to be killed by his son that evening at Kompeki? And then we have the right to ask ourselves another question : We think that Hanako has hesitations about the guilt of her brother but couldn't these hesitations come from the fact that she knew ? And so she wonders about the sacrifice which is planned for Yorinobu and especially about the relevance of offering immortality to her father ? because it is Hanako's responsibility to make Saboru Arasaka the immortal god he is trying to be by sacrificing his son. .... Very mythical !
Ofcourse you have to stress it that V is first person technology was succesful and even then it was more or less a miracle.
For arasaka to figure out how it works within fews weeks is questionable at the very least, and it was mewest chip to boot.
It should have been explained better in game
 
I desagree. I think it's ok to have to deal with subtility. I don't like to have to much explanations. For me the player may have to think about it and ask his self questions.
 
For jackie, it's not the same :(
It's an engram made from a dead poeple, not complete but still an engram (Goro's words).


She's the Arasaka's heart and she know where is her place (and she don't want to change it). And she discuss with Saburo's engram after his dead, the plan was certainly planned at this moment (or maybe early in Saburo mind) :)
"Make the good choices with incomplete knowledge, that's what it takes to become the most powerful man in the world" (also Goro's Words)

And since the relic is a special order from Saburo, he must have considered "kicking" someone out of his body before his own dead :)

The goal they have been working towards was clone bodies. For some reason the clone brains rejected engrams. So they eventually came up with relic, to alter the clone brains most likely.
 
The goal they have been working towards was clone bodies. For some reason the clone brains rejected engrams. So they eventually came up with relic, to alter the clone brains most likely.
I'm not sure about clone, i could be worst :)
If i understand Hellman, he said:
V: "The chip had to eject people from their own bodies ?"
Hellman: "we assumed that the bodies were indifferent during implantation"
V: "Indifferent ? Dead you mean ?"
Hellman : "Yes, that's why what happened to you is so interesting..."
For me, it seem Arsaka's tests concerned unfortunate peoples, not clones (if i understand correctly) :(
 
In my opinion, "secure your soul" is a formula for advertising. As Hanako half explains, it is not meant to be a real persona (you realise that when you comes to talk to jacky !) but a copy of the memories that reproduce more or less a personality. We must not forget that the first goal of this program is to be sold and, we know it well, the advertising always lies !

V case is an exception because of Johnny and because of the circonstences.
Saburo is really the first one to fully benefit from this technology and to be transplanted.
Moreover the pnj explain it well: the technology does not allow them to unravel the personality of V and the traces that Johnny left to keep only V and to make a copy of it, the process would kill him since the connections of replacement which were made in the brain of V have a clean signature. They explain that it takes time for the Arasaka researchers to deal with this problem.
Besides, the contract that V signs if he accepts to be stored in Mikoshi while waiting for the researchers to achieve this feat obliges him to literally give up his humanity (he gives up his legal rights as a person and this is very symbolic).

Saburo has not been invested with a second consciousness which replaced his spirit, he died only once and his "transfer" happened differently since Yorinibu was sacrificed.
One comes to wonder then, to what extent Saburo had planned to be killed by his son that evening at Kompeki? And then we have the right to ask ourselves another question : We think that Hanako has hesitations about the guilt of her brother but couldn't these hesitations come from the fact that she knew ? And so she wonders about the sacrifice which is planned for Yorinobu and especially about the relevance of offering immortality to her father ? because it is Hanako's responsibility to make Saboru Arasaka the immortal god he is trying to be by sacrificing his son. .... Very mythical !

Jackie is below secure your soul level probably, due to him being dead. Saburo is probably a pre existing copy. He probably wasn't planning to take yorinobu's body, they didnt even know that would help.

Hanako essentially gave his engram life, she says after everything was going poorly, she consulted Saburo at Mikoshi. She never really wanted to run Arasaka, in fact in her younger days she was waiting for yorinobu to make good on the promise to free her. The yorinobu body stealing plan was likely hatched close to the coup. Up until the parade, she was willing to let yorinobu rule.
I'm not sure about clone, i could be worst :)
If i understand Hellman, he said:
V: "The chip had to eject people from their own bodies ?"
Hellman: "we assumed that the bodies were indifferent during implantation"
V: "Indifferent ? Dead you mean ?"
Hellman : "Yes, that's why what happened to you is so interesting..."
For me, it seem Arsaka's tests concerned unfortunate peoples, not clones (if i understand correctly) :(

he was saying the bodies were neurally dead. They had a shard somewhere we they say explicitly that it only worked on subjects whose brain functions ceased.

the clone thing is from background in 2020 and cyberpunk red. Its possible they gave up on clones, but unlikely. Takemura mentions they have problems trying the clone method on you because your DNA is altered, which suggests they still are trying clone tech.
 
There is literately no reason why they can't give V a new body. There is no DNA modification, only the brain is gone with nano machines. Also cloning was a thing in 2040 in cp2020, why the devs would make such a big mistake to say, its not possible. So i think its part of the story. Even when it is a disappointing ending, that in the end... all endings are only a simulation in Mikoshi. Relic 3.0 the Afterlife alpha.

After you enter the Tower, V has a breakdown and get in the lab to know how the survival of the relic 2.0 was so long possible. Then both johnny and V gets uploaded to the new 3.0 test environment. But Arasaka has now a problem, the rogue AI ALT is after miskoshi, V is the only one who ever has encountered her and have lifed long enough with a second engram. So V gets a new body with a new ghost in the head. She must team up with T-Bug to hunt ALT. That would a logical real ending/aftermath for an ADDON.
 
She must team up with T-Bug to hunt ALT.
Haha, that would be amusing, but I doubt it. But now that you mentioned T bug I now remember that I forgot to watch the YT video about whether she was alive or dead. Damn it. Oh well...probably dead:)
 
Top Bottom