Open world in support of/working against the story

[BionicDance]

The story, even if well written, was out of touch with that 'open-world' aspect and I think I get it... It's not so easy, but everyone keeps trying to do 'open-world' because GTA got good at it.

"GTA".
What a strange way to spell "Fallout and Skyrim".

GTA ain't an RPG, and its open world is about as superficial as CP2077's in my never-humble opinion. GTA's maps tend to be a lot of repeated buildings, repeated NPCs, and a lot of inappropriate humor; they feel like a stylized satire of the real world, rather than worlds unto themselves.

Fallout 4, on the other hand, didn't feel quite so stand-offish. Same with Skyrim.
Even though they're not so street-and-car based, I think they're better models from which to make comparisons.

Here... It doesn't make much sense and by that I could say that aspect kind of failed.

Said it before, say it again: CDPR mis-judged the audience, failed to read them room.
They made the game they wanted to play, forgetting that they're a business...or at least, that's how it seems; they managed to alienate a lot of people, and I think it's down mostly to CDPR's focus on certain aspects of the game, while treating others like they don't really matter...even though, given user comments, those aspects clearly matter a great deal to a lot of players.

It worked on my first playthrough to an extent when I IMMEDIATELY deviated from the main story (before the heist and rush for a solution), where I was limited in my space, but I wasn't dying... Just earning cash for myself, getting geared for more gigs. Then the heist happens, THEN in the Afterlife I get asked that 1,5K or 15K creds (can't remember) and it burns a little hole in the pocket.

On my first playthrough, I didn't do any of that.
I followed the story because I thought I kinda had to--much of the story sclaimed to be time-critical, even though the under-the-hood parts of the game didn't agree--and so I ended up doing a lot of early missions--like The Heist--way under-powered.

This feels like either shouldn't have gone with the death clock or Should have added money roadblocks to push us doing sidegigs for dirty cash even if we're on the death timer.

Well, I'm glad they didn't have a death-clock; games that impose a time limit on players tend to be stressful, especially if the player's skill at gaming is bad, or they like taking their time and exploring the game's possibilities, like me.

 

[Didacgomez]

I would say that open world is there in this game for two reasons:
1)Old nostalgic people like me that have gone through Night City in tabletop (see the supplement from CP2020) and were waiting to "see"NC, the CP2020 or CPRED rulesets description of the city are a scratch to the surface of the effort that Rtalsorian did to create their Cyberpunk setting.

2)Tabletop Cyberpunk emphasizes the urban/street story and this is difficult to achieve in a hub based design.

For 1) if I compare my old book with CP2077 Night City I would say that computer is stronger and weaker at the same time.
In book you have a description,places of interest,NPCs in each district, description of city government etc... but you and the players need to make up the "detail", the description of a dark alley ...and lot is left to the imagination (this is good for me,but some people want more detailed things). In computer you have visual and sound input with a lot of detail; you don´t need to describe how you traverse from a decaying industrial area to corpo plaza this is feed to you by the game (this is also good,but is the artist view).
The problem with the computer (as it is now, might be improved or not in a future) is that its more static, if my players decided to destroy a couple of buildings my NC was able to track that in my notes and adapt it "live" and still be able to go through a story (NPC1 killed, need NPC2 to provide the clue in another way); so in this regard an open-world computer NC is worse than my old tabletop.
Still 80%-90% of the time we used NC as the "background" for the story and maybe 10%-20% free roaming with dice generated encounters, that the book provides or you can adjust/create with little effort-this should have been in-game-.

For 2)-which is related to 1)-, if I compare a hub based approach like "Shadowrun"/Deus Ex computer with CP2077 a hub fails to transmit properly the urban setting. You have nice graphical depiction of a neighbourhood, or harbor and some text describing it. But fails to transmit things like: is the city with a doughnut effect(downtown clean, then crime, then rich)? is it like some cities were slums are wall to wall with the rich? is a gradient?... the hub doesn't feel "organic" or a part of something bigger no matter how detailed is.

In the case of cp2077, for me open world works well with story because I'm not trying to "clean" the map or actively try to break the game limits . I follow story and stop here and there when I see something interesting or i need some cash or street cred and I hit point of no return roughly at 90 hours mark that in-game is few weeks so is not thar far from Vik prediction(and never used fast travel).

My main complain with cp2077 is that doesn't feel dangerous enough...the player should be assaulted just for exploring a dark alley or being in Corpo plaza dressed as a punk. But i think that this "randomness" is something that CDPR will be able to put in the next iteration.

PS: this poor book survived 20 something years of unspeakable horrors of pizza,cola,beer and God knows what .

 

[MrGuyton]

DISCLAIMER : I'm starting a thread on this subject because I haven't seen this discussion coming up a lot ; most of the open world talks are about what it does good/bad, the lack of features and such. I don't want this thread to be about this.

I've finished the game two times, and I've been feeling the need to post about my experience because I think it has something to do with how the industry feels the need to develop games currently.

On my first playthrough, I did everything I could that was thrown at me by the game, from the most mundane thing to the most important of tasks. The story unfolded in what I'd call a great way (in my opinion) but I also felt like all the side content (by side content I mean : gigs, NCPD, pretty much all "mercenary" stuff) I did was somehow unnecessary. I couldn't really pinpoint why though. Sometimes I'd think it was because some of those were just filler content, but by my second time of playing I found out it wasn't really because of that.

On my second playthrough I decided to give a more "streamlined" approach to how I played, so I went with the main story bits, plus the side character stories, plus some other quests I picked and did along without really thinking about it (Peralez, Delamain, Sinnerman to name a few). My experience felt far more organic and eventually satisfying. When I reached the ending, I felt way more emotionnaly connected and invested in my character because I hadn't spent so much time "dragging" in Night City.

Which brings me to talk about the underlying issue here : I came to ask myself, would the game be better without it being open world ? Again, at the risk of repeating myself, I don't want this topic to be about the open world being broken or lacking features. I'm talking about overall design in games in general and the decision to make open worlds in narrative driven games. I can't keep wondering why open worlds designs are so popular despite being almost all the time working against the story mechanics. I felt the same when playing RDR2, I felt the same when playing basically every open world game there is (Horizon, every AC, Ghost of Tsushima...), and even to some extent while playing the Witcher 3 (I found the expansions, being way smaller in size, to be better paced and to tell a tighter story).

My point is, why investing so much in work and time in working around implementing an open world, when your game would feel far more tight and have a better pacing as a narrative experience ?

I bought the game on preorder and I'm 50 hours into my third attempt to play through the whole game. The first attempt was abandoned because of "issues" my second was the dog's fault for pulling my ps4 off the side and mine for not having backed-up.

My point is that the protracted nature of my progression has given me a lot of time to think about the game, and has changed how I'm playing it.

In my first two attempts, I was distracted by the things I felt should be filling up the open world, radiant quests, unscripted interactions etc and trying out perks and combat. I got a couple of quests in to Panam's story on my second attempt and I was also viewing the side quests and ncpd crimes as map filler. I hadn't appreciated the level of thought and narrative storytelling involved in these side elements.

This time round, I guess because I'm so pleased it's playable and having been frustrated for so long I have been really taking my time, and making sure I complete as many side quests, gigs and crimes as possible. I decided to have a sofa day today and played for 7 hours straight. I've just finished all the ncpd quests in Watson and I've done quite a few for Wakako and the captain.

I think I'm starting to understand why CDPR have taken the approach they did. Each side quest embellishes elements that are touched on in the main quests and all of the crimes add detail and consequences for some of the "little people" in those situations. For each assault in progress there are at least two shards and sometimes emails that give context and expand on the lore and the background and back-stories.

Someone (well I guess a whole writing team) has gone into extreme lengths to consider the whole context of a situation and what the knock on effects would be.

/spoilers/

The stallholder who grassed on the tigers from the market investigation who's trying to leave night city to save his skin only to be told there's no funding for his witness protection and so he's getting on a boat only to be sold out by bent policemen to the very same tigers.

We're introduced to relationships between fixers, dealers, pimps, netrunners, good people trying to get by and bad people trying to take advantage.
Now I've realised all that detail is there I think it adds to the city.

There is a but though whilst it's amazing at the first encounter now I've decided to take the time to read all the shards and listen to the incidental conversations, I'm not sure what it means for replayability, or actually how many people will take the time required to digest it.

Most players don't finish every quest in a game, even fewer replay the game again in search of alternative outcomes or trophy hunt.

If you don't take the time to digest the information then you're faced with a quick fight, some loot and then a barren area of map that there's no point returning to. To be honest, I'm not sure how many of the reported crime missions I'll do on my future runs,
but I know I'll play through the other life paths and make different decisions in the story. I'm sure I won't have found every hidden gem in one run.

So I'm on the fence here really. I really like the extra stories, I really appreciate the effort that's gone in to them, but I missed them on my first play and if it wasn't for the wait becuase of the bugs I would have probably finished the game by the time I hit 50hrs and been complaining about the lack of content in the open world.

 

[Pufty]

GTA ain't an RPG, and its open world is about as superficial as CP2077's in my never-humble opinion. GTA's maps tend to be a lot of repeated buildings, repeated NPCs, and a lot of inappropriate humor; they feel like a stylized satire of the real world, rather than worlds unto themselves.

It still feels like it tried to be GTA. It has those open-ended quests and Skyrim (haven't played fallout) had an actual RolePlay feel. I don't feel that in Cyberpunk. V is a pretty defined character and I like V's character, but he isn't such a blank slate like in Skyrim. For me it separates the games where in one you're an important and defined story piece within that story (Story about the character) and the others have an adventure with multiple shorter stories. My time in skyrim can be very different between multiple playthroughs, but it never made me question why was I rushing it or taking it slow. In Cyberpunk the rush illusion didn't work for long. Once the illusion is broken, I questioned it's necessity and whether sidegigs were really necessary if we're looking for answers.

So you play the game once, didn't break the death clock illusion and played the mostly linear story. It was a good story, pretty driven and interesting to see unfold. That idea clicks and it's more GTA esque. SOME diverging options, but overall a good linear story with emotional beats. It did click for me, which was nice.

Play the game again, but this time you engage the side gigs. Death clock illusion just breaks as you realize you can take your time with these things. Side content is less sparkly, more RPG esque. Some quests introduce multiple approaches and such. Overall good for just questing, not so polished like the story would be. You go back to the main story without the thin veil of pressure, so the main story's got less effect on you. Anytime you cough up blood or someone is worried about your death, you're likely going to "Yeah, well... not really"

 

[BionicDance]

It still feels like it tried to be GTA. It has those open-ended quests and Skyrim (haven't played fallout) had an actual RolePlay feel.

I feel like the only reason GTA comparisons get made is because there is a lot of crime and driving in a city.

I don't feel that in Cyberpunk. V is a pretty defined character and I like V's character, but he isn't such a blank slate like in Skyrim.

And I see that as a real problem with a game marketed as an RPG (even if only initially).

So you play the game once, didn't break the death clock illusion and played the mostly linear story. It was a good story, pretty driven and interesting to see unfold. That idea clicks and it's more GTA esque.

I don't see how you're getting GTA out of that.
To me, GTA was just an open-world shooter, with zero RP elements.

Play the game again, but this time you engage the side gigs. Death clock illusion just breaks as you realize you can take your time with these things. Side content is less sparkly, more RPG esque. Some quests introduce multiple approaches and such. Overall good for just questing, not so polished like the story would be. You go back to the main story without the thin veil of pressure, so the main story's got less effect on you. Anytime you cough up blood or someone is worried about your death, you're likely going to "Yeah, well... not really"

Thing is, I reached that point on my first playthrough.

 

[Pufty]

I feel like the only reason GTA comparisons get made is because there is a lot of crime and driving in a city.



And I see that as a real problem with a game marketed as an RPG (even if only initially).



I don't see how you're getting GTA out of that.
To me, GTA was just an open-world shooter, with zero RP elements.



Thing is, I reached that point on my first playthrough.

I see it as GTA toward how the story is presented. It's not an 'adventure' quest, it's got a strong story to go with it. From the player being a clear-cut story character to a movie-like story with that Open World. The difference, GTA's open world has got things to do that aren't the same thing, but different

Not like I'm a fan of Rockstar because of the torment that was Gta online, but they did make couple of good games

 

[BionicDance]

I see it as GTA toward how the story is presented. It's not an 'adventure' quest, it's got a strong story to go with it.

Maybe we played different versions of GTA, but I always felt like the stories were there because the designers thought they had to be; the story always seemed in service of starting missions, rather than missions being in service of moving the story like they are in CP2077.

Like, I only played from III to V, but I could barely tell you the story of any GTA game.
Vice City...? Uhh, mob dude in 80s Florida, obviously meant to be "Miami Vice". Don't remember why, or any characters. Hell, barely remember the main character's name. Tommy Frezetti, or something? I might be mixing that up with Joe Pesci's character in "Goodfellas".
San Andreas...? Gang dude who loves his mom does stuff in what I suppose is pseudo-LA? Really don't remember anything else.
GTA V...? Clearly meant to be "The Sopranos", but it changes characters every few missions. It's weird.

...and like that. The stories were completely unremarkable.
CP2077's story, however, is fairly memorable; certainly moreso by comparison to any GTA game. I can name characters, describe what they're like, describe how they look, etc... I was never invested in any of the GTA characters; goodness knows I never teared up at their deaths the way I did with Jackie's.

So, I mean...that's why the comparisons to GTA fall flat for me. Sure, we drive around a big city and kill people because we're totally a criminal, but that's where the comparison ends.
(SIDE NOTE: I'd give a lot for "Grand Theft Astro", where it's GTA in a futuristic setting, preferably a retro Googie/Ray Gun Gothic style, a la The Jetsons and Futurama. I would buy the ever loving crap outta that game!)

 

[elmetnuter]

The open world is essential to the experience but the game having been rushed out, everything that is there to support character leveling is badly implemented or inconsistent outside of certain gigs that tie into the main story.

Approach to missions.
Although, there is lore to be found in every district with side missions having a lot of depth with an overarching plot leading from one mission to another (Watson district and the snuff BD factory continuity, Netrunners dens with email to Regina, etc.), the fact that the map is pre-filled with gigs and the impossibility to solve any missions by talking to local bosses first or straight up discovering or investigating building and places, completely negate the immersion.
We can talk to Dum Dum and Royce into taking credits for buying the spider-bot and leave peacefully but we can't present ourselves the same manner, or even try into any other scenarios.

-----

FIxers

The Fixers are the reason we are going out in the world in between the main story moments. They are suppose to be the pillars of our leveling but might as well just be existing only on your phone. Outside of the main story, there is no incentive to pay them a visit. Why do we have to go visit Wakako after The Heist, just to be wired the money few feet away from her? Because she is part of the main story later on. That's the only reason.

You know at least Padre and Wakako from the 6 month montage of your introduction to Night City. If you don't play Street Kid, Padre does not remember you after the Heist and introduces himself even though you and Jacky made him a lot of money.
Padre is local mafioso with the Valentinos under him, Wakako has the Tygerclaws. Although it's understood that local gangs have a certain autonomy, contrarian or not to their fixer's plan and way to do business; you can murder everyone of them, disrupt all of their petty crimes and daily racketing, the fixers will never call you or go after you.
For working with a fixer, you don't get their minion's support or neutral state of engagement. The police scanner forces you de facto to be at war with any criminal activity even though you should be able to profit from it yourself, under the fixer's blessing in his/her own district. It makes sense when faction are infringing on other districts (Tygerclaws in Watson, Maelstrom in Heywood, etc.) but it's not otherwise. Watson should be the only district where no crime is welcome because Regina has no tie to any gangs.

With no faction/gang system, the map for gigs and side jobs feels daunting and superfluous at the same time.

> What would be good incentives to work for a fixer:
1-Possibility to rent an apartment or hotel room in the fixer's district.
2-Being able to take jobs directly from him/her instead all locations marked on the map.
3-Gaining reputation that gives you access to more important-dangerous gigs over time. (Would set a good approach to leveling and difficulty).
4-Getting daily cuts from the local racketeers as extra money / and-or / being neutral to them
5-Having the Legendary Set of clothes being a reward for completing all the important tasks from the fixer.

-----

There is many other other things I want to talk about but the bed is calling.

Thx for reading.

 

[Ayinde_Palmer]

I bought the game on preorder and I'm 50 hours into my third attempt to play through the whole game. The first attempt was abandoned because of "issues" my second was the dog's fault for pulling my ps4 off the side and mine for not having backed-up.

My point is that the protracted nature of my progression has given me a lot of time to think about the game, and has changed how I'm playing it.

In my first two attempts, I was distracted by the things I felt should be filling up the open world, radiant quests, unscripted interactions etc and trying out perks and combat. I got a couple of quests in to Panam's story on my second attempt and I was also viewing the side quests and ncpd crimes as map filler. I hadn't appreciated the level of thought and narrative storytelling involved in these side elements.

This time round, I guess because I'm so pleased it's playable and having been frustrated for so long I have been really taking my time, and making sure I complete as many side quests, gigs and crimes as possible. I decided to have a sofa day today and played for 7 hours straight. I've just finished all the ncpd quests in Watson and I've done quite a few for Wakako and the captain.

I think I'm starting to understand why CDPR have taken the approach they did. Each side quest embellishes elements that are touched on in the main quests and all of the crimes add detail and consequences for some of the "little people" in those situations. For each assault in progress there are at least two shards and sometimes emails that give context and expand on the lore and the background and back-stories.

Someone (well I guess a whole writing team) has gone into extreme lengths to consider the whole context of a situation and what the knock on effects would be.

/spoilers/

The stallholder who grassed on the tigers from the market investigation who's trying to leave night city to save his skin only to be told there's no funding for his witness protection and so he's getting on a boat only to be sold out by bent policemen to the very same tigers.

We're introduced to relationships between fixers, dealers, pimps, netrunners, good people trying to get by and bad people trying to take advantage.
Now I've realised all that detail is there I think it adds to the city.

There is a but though whilst it's amazing at the first encounter now I've decided to take the time to read all the shards and listen to the incidental conversations, I'm not sure what it means for replayability, or actually how many people will take the time required to digest it.

Most players don't finish every quest in a game, even fewer replay the game again in search of alternative outcomes or trophy hunt.

If you don't take the time to digest the information then you're faced with a quick fight, some loot and then a barren area of map that there's no point returning to. To be honest, I'm not sure how many of the reported crime missions I'll do on my future runs,
but I know I'll play through the other life paths and make different decisions in the story. I'm sure I won't have found every hidden gem in one run.

So I'm on the fence here really. I really like the extra stories, I really appreciate the effort that's gone in to them, but I missed them on my first play and if it wasn't for the wait becuase of the bugs I would have probably finished the game by the time I hit 50hrs and been complaining about the lack of content in the open world.

right, but the way I see it, the people who miss this, don't really want it. Its meant to be there for people who want to relax, and read and understand the context. For some other people it slows them down, and dullens their focus.

I think the biggest problem is when people play the game in ways they don't want to play it, because they believe they are supposed to. Some of these people run through all these side quests, and they don't really care, and others want to slow down. but feel like aren't supposed to. The game is designed such that you get as much or as little as you desire from it.

I don't think there is many solutions to this, just by tracking and describing quests as main or side quests, or gigs, people take their own preconceived ideas about how they should approach them, from a meta standpoint. Also people bring their own ideas about how to play the game, from other games they have played. Some see every aggressive npc as some one you are supposed to kill. Or the fact that Guns drop, means the best way to get items is to kill non stop, picking up everything and hoping for a rare drop.

Maybe we played different versions of GTA, but I always felt like the stories were there because the designers thought they had to be; the story always seemed in service of starting missions, rather than missions being in service of moving the story like they are in CP2077.

Like, I only played from III to V, but I could barely tell you the story of any GTA game.
Vice City...? Uhh, mob dude in 80s Florida, obviously meant to be "Miami Vice". Don't remember why, or any characters. Hell, barely remember the main character's name. Tommy Frezetti, or something? I might be mixing that up with Joe Pesci's character in "Goodfellas".
San Andreas...? Gang dude who loves his mom does stuff in what I suppose is pseudo-LA? Really don't remember anything else.
GTA V...? Clearly meant to be "The Sopranos", but it changes characters every few missions. It's weird.

...and like that. The stories were completely unremarkable.
CP2077's story, however, is fairly memorable; certainly moreso by comparison to any GTA game. I can name characters, describe what they're like, describe how they look, etc... I was never invested in any of the GTA characters; goodness knows I never teared up at their deaths the way I did with Jackie's.

So, I mean...that's why the comparisons to GTA fall flat for me. Sure, we drive around a big city and kill people because we're totally a criminal, but that's where the comparison ends.
(SIDE NOTE: I'd give a lot for "Grand Theft Astro", where it's GTA in a futuristic setting, preferably a retro Googie/Ray Gun Gothic style, a la The Jetsons and Futurama. I would buy the ever loving crap outta that game!)

mercs aren't exactly criminals, in night city stealing is normal. Its like insulting/lying about someone, the law generally won't get involved. Murder is acceptable unless they are unarmed and harmless. (and a large part of the population is armed). Or i

this is one of the reasons they pay mercs, someone to enforce what they consider justice to be. Or stealing. Heck even the heist, you are robbing yorinobu, who is robbing Arasaka, who robbed Alt.

Notice how NCPD was never involved in any of that.

The open world is essential to the experience but the game having been rushed out, everything that is there to support character leveling is badly implemented or inconsistent outside of certain gigs that tie into the main story.

Approach to missions.
Although, there is lore to be found in every district with side missions having a lot of depth with an overarching plot leading from one mission to another (Watson district and the snuff BD factory continuity, Netrunners dens with email to Regina, etc.), the fact that the map is pre-filled with gigs and the impossibility to solve any missions by talking to local bosses first or straight up discovering or investigating building and places, completely negate the immersion.
We can talk to Dum Dum and Royce into taking credits for buying the spider-bot and leave peacefully but we can't present ourselves the same manner, or even try into any other scenarios.

-----

FIxers

The Fixers are the reason we are going out in the world in between the main story moments. They are suppose to be the pillars of our leveling but might as well just be existing only on your phone. Outside of the main story, there is no incentive to pay them a visit. Why do we have to go visit Wakako after The Heist, just to be wired the money few feet away from her? Because she is part of the main story later on. That's the only reason.

You know at least Padre and Wakako from the 6 month montage of your introduction to Night City. If you don't play Street Kid, Padre does not remember you after the Heist and introduces himself even though you and Jacky made him a lot of money.
Padre is local mafioso with the Valentinos under him, Wakako has the Tygerclaws. Although it's understood that local gangs have a certain autonomy, contrarian or not to their fixer's plan and way to do business; you can murder everyone of them, disrupt all of their petty crimes and daily racketing, the fixers will never call you or go after you.
For working with a fixer, you don't get their minion's support or neutral state of engagement. The police scanner forces you de facto to be at war with any criminal activity even though you should be able to profit from it yourself, under the fixer's blessing in his/her own district. It makes sense when faction are infringing on other districts (Tygerclaws in Watson, Maelstrom in Heywood, etc.) but it's not otherwise. Watson should be the only district where no crime is welcome because Regina has no tie to any gangs.

With no faction/gang system, the map for gigs and side jobs feels daunting and superfluous at the same time.

> What would be good incentives to work for a fixer:
1-Possibility to rent an apartment or hotel room in the fixer's district.
2-Being able to take jobs directly from him/her instead all locations marked on the map.
3-Gaining reputation that gives you access to more important-dangerous gigs over time. (Would set a good approach to leveling and difficulty).
4-Getting daily cuts from the local racketeers as extra money / and-or / being neutral to them
5-Having the Legendary Set of clothes being a reward for completing all the important tasks from the fixer.

-----

There is many other other things I want to talk about but the bed is calling.

Thx for reading.

The truth is, mercs don't solve crimes, especially before they happen. That does mean V's insight into the world is almost completely through the lens of crime scenes, and being nosey on cases. I can see why people miss the rpg trope of being an adventurer, who solves people's problems and makes their lives better, thats usually not the job. There are a couple of rescues, but mostly the merc is called after the fact, or with a task that isn't helping anyone other than their client.

As far as the fixers,
Padre probably wasn't paying attention to V, at that point you were a nobody, just some muscle that Jackie was working with. You weren't a known merc, Jackie was. If you were a nomad, no one had ever seen you before. If you pick corpo, you are middle management who grew up in the better side of town.

Also Padre doesn't have the Valentinos under him, He is his own faction, with connections to everyone in Heywood. Valentinos, NCPD, politicians. He works with them sometimes and sometimes against them. The top fixers play the game of trying to control the balance of power of the area, they don't want anyone getting too powerful, but they generally need to maintain relationships. So Padre sometimes works for six street, sometimes for Valentinos sometimes with Government. He does seem to have a slightly soft spot for Valentinos lives. But the Valentinos dont answer to him, and from some shards, are actually bothered by his influence

Wakako is Similar, but she appears to have deeper famial ties to the tigerclaws, at the same time she seems to care less about V attacking them. It actually seems like she only really values her personal connections, Her personal gigs seem to involve helping her mercs. Outside of that, it seems to be only about the cash.

Dino seems to be closer to a normal fixer, doesn't seem like he controls the politics of his area like wakako and Padre. El Capitan seems like he is trying to be more like a wakako/padre but slightly less jaded.


I will say, it feels like there should be at least a little more convo with fixers, especially as you work with them more. Going to see them should be a little more than it is.

 

[LeKill3rFou]

Also Padre doesn't have the Valentinos under him, He is his own faction, with connections to everyone in Heywood. Valentinos, NCPD, politicians. He works with them sometimes and sometimes against them. The top fixers play the game of trying to control the balance of power of the area, they don't want anyone getting too powerful, but they generally need to maintain relationships. So Padre sometimes works for six street, sometimes for Valentinos sometimes with Government. He does seem to have a slightly soft spot for Valentinos lives. But the Valentinos dont answer to him, and from some shards, are actually bothered by his influence

Rogue said that in one GIG : "the role of the fixers is to maintain the balance of power. It's time to make a little readjustment...". And wakako send you to steal/kill Tygers without any qualms (same for Padre for Gustavo Orta or other Valentinos)

 

[AikoHayashi]

The open world is essential to the experience but the game having been rushed out, everything that is there to support character leveling is badly implemented or inconsistent outside of certain gigs that tie into the main story.

Approach to missions.
Although, there is lore to be found in every district with side missions having a lot of depth with an overarching plot leading from one mission to another (Watson district and the snuff BD factory continuity, Netrunners dens with email to Regina, etc.), the fact that the map is pre-filled with gigs and the impossibility to solve any missions by talking to local bosses first or straight up discovering or investigating building and places, completely negate the immersion.
We can talk to Dum Dum and Royce into taking credits for buying the spider-bot and leave peacefully but we can't present ourselves the same manner, or even try into any other scenarios.

-----

FIxers

The Fixers are the reason we are going out in the world in between the main story moments. They are suppose to be the pillars of our leveling but might as well just be existing only on your phone. Outside of the main story, there is no incentive to pay them a visit. Why do we have to go visit Wakako after The Heist, just to be wired the money few feet away from her? Because she is part of the main story later on. That's the only reason.

You know at least Padre and Wakako from the 6 month montage of your introduction to Night City. If you don't play Street Kid, Padre does not remember you after the Heist and introduces himself even though you and Jacky made him a lot of money.
Padre is local mafioso with the Valentinos under him, Wakako has the Tygerclaws. Although it's understood that local gangs have a certain autonomy, contrarian or not to their fixer's plan and way to do business; you can murder everyone of them, disrupt all of their petty crimes and daily racketing, the fixers will never call you or go after you.
For working with a fixer, you don't get their minion's support or neutral state of engagement. The police scanner forces you de facto to be at war with any criminal activity even though you should be able to profit from it yourself, under the fixer's blessing in his/her own district. It makes sense when faction are infringing on other districts (Tygerclaws in Watson, Maelstrom in Heywood, etc.) but it's not otherwise. Watson should be the only district where no crime is welcome because Regina has no tie to any gangs.

With no faction/gang system, the map for gigs and side jobs feels daunting and superfluous at the same time.

> What would be good incentives to work for a fixer:
1-Possibility to rent an apartment or hotel room in the fixer's district.
2-Being able to take jobs directly from him/her instead all locations marked on the map.
3-Gaining reputation that gives you access to more important-dangerous gigs over time. (Would set a good approach to leveling and difficulty).
4-Getting daily cuts from the local racketeers as extra money / and-or / being neutral to them
5-Having the Legendary Set of clothes being a reward for completing all the important tasks from the fixer.

-----

There is many other other things I want to talk about but the bed is calling.

Thx for reading.

5-Having the Legendary Set of clothes being a reward for completing all the important tasks from the fixer.
-it could be great to get special rewards

2-Being able to take jobs directly from him/her instead all locations marked on the map.
- it could be nice to have more reasons to meet personally the fixers, but I don't see why it is necessary to go and personally accept jobs. Even nowadays people can receive tasks by phone, Skype and etc. and activating a quest by being close to it is more comfortable

 

[Pufty]

Maybe we played different versions of GTA, but I always felt like the stories were there because the designers thought they had to be; the story always seemed in service of starting missions, rather than missions being in service of moving the story like they are in CP2077.

Like, I only played from III to V, but I could barely tell you the story of any GTA game.
Vice City...? Uhh, mob dude in 80s Florida, obviously meant to be "Miami Vice". Don't remember why, or any characters. Hell, barely remember the main character's name. Tommy Frezetti, or something? I might be mixing that up with Joe Pesci's character in "Goodfellas".
San Andreas...? Gang dude who loves his mom does stuff in what I suppose is pseudo-LA? Really don't remember anything else.
GTA V...? Clearly meant to be "The Sopranos", but it changes characters every few missions. It's weird.

...and like that. The stories were completely unremarkable.
CP2077's story, however, is fairly memorable; certainly moreso by comparison to any GTA game. I can name characters, describe what they're like, describe how they look, etc... I was never invested in any of the GTA characters; goodness knows I never teared up at their deaths the way I did with Jackie's.

So, I mean...that's why the comparisons to GTA fall flat for me. Sure, we drive around a big city and kill people because we're totally a criminal, but that's where the comparison ends.
(SIDE NOTE: I'd give a lot for "Grand Theft Astro", where it's GTA in a futuristic setting, preferably a retro Googie/Ray Gun Gothic style, a la The Jetsons and Futurama. I would buy the ever loving crap outta that game!)

Not denying the good story of Cyberpunk. I did make a video a while back on Cyberpunk (Tried only mentioning the good), but GTA's stories were (for me) really great too. I'd count San Andreas and V great games with great stories that I've replayed multiple times. Can't say the same for Vice City, but that's where this point comes in - I guess it's just taste.

What I did want to say is that GTA's SIDE-Activities were much more engaging and kid me... adult me still thinks there's a lot to do in these older Open-World games. I think Cyberpunk does great as a fairly linear story and flops in it's open world where the suggested possibilities are beyond what there actually is to do

 

[northwold]

I bought the game on preorder and I'm 50 hours into my third attempt to play through the whole game. The first attempt was abandoned because of "issues" my second was the dog's fault for pulling my ps4 off the side and mine for not having backed-up.

My point is that the protracted nature of my progression has given me a lot of time to think about the game, and has changed how I'm playing it.

In my first two attempts, I was distracted by the things I felt should be filling up the open world, radiant quests, unscripted interactions etc and trying out perks and combat. I got a couple of quests in to Panam's story on my second attempt and I was also viewing the side quests and ncpd crimes as map filler. I hadn't appreciated the level of thought and narrative storytelling involved in these side elements.

This time round, I guess because I'm so pleased it's playable and having been frustrated for so long I have been really taking my time, and making sure I complete as many side quests, gigs and crimes as possible. I decided to have a sofa day today and played for 7 hours straight. I've just finished all the ncpd quests in Watson and I've done quite a few for Wakako and the captain.

I think I'm starting to understand why CDPR have taken the approach they did. Each side quest embellishes elements that are touched on in the main quests and all of the crimes add detail and consequences for some of the "little people" in those situations. For each assault in progress there are at least two shards and sometimes emails that give context and expand on the lore and the background and back-stories.

Someone (well I guess a whole writing team) has gone into extreme lengths to consider the whole context of a situation and what the knock on effects would be.

/spoilers/

The stallholder who grassed on the tigers from the market investigation who's trying to leave night city to save his skin only to be told there's no funding for his witness protection and so he's getting on a boat only to be sold out by bent policemen to the very same tigers.

We're introduced to relationships between fixers, dealers, pimps, netrunners, good people trying to get by and bad people trying to take advantage.
Now I've realised all that detail is there I think it adds to the city.

There is a but though whilst it's amazing at the first encounter now I've decided to take the time to read all the shards and listen to the incidental conversations, I'm not sure what it means for replayability, or actually how many people will take the time required to digest it.

Most players don't finish every quest in a game, even fewer replay the game again in search of alternative outcomes or trophy hunt.

If you don't take the time to digest the information then you're faced with a quick fight, some loot and then a barren area of map that there's no point returning to. To be honest, I'm not sure how many of the reported crime missions I'll do on my future runs,
but I know I'll play through the other life paths and make different decisions in the story. I'm sure I won't have found every hidden gem in one run.

So I'm on the fence here really. I really like the extra stories, I really appreciate the effort that's gone in to them, but I missed them on my first play and if it wasn't for the wait becuase of the bugs I would have probably finished the game by the time I hit 50hrs and been complaining about the lack of content in the open world.

Yes the little police encounters are stuffed to the gills with references to matters that are relevant to and add to the central plot elements of the game. It's a real shame that people have just assumed they're random encounters with no context because a lot of thought (and work) clearly went into them.

Somehow, the sheer amount of narrative thinking that has gone into the game doesn't seem to come across and seems not to get noticed by the most casual players. I really do wonder if it's because, between fast travel and showing everything on the map, the UI accidentally encourages a "bang bang, next" play style that means the details never get seen.

 

[LeKill3rFou]

Not denying the good story of Cyberpunk. I did make a video a while back on Cyberpunk (Tried only mentioning the good), but GTA's stories were (for me) really great too. I'd count San Andreas and V great games with great stories that I've replayed multiple times. Can't say the same for Vice City, but that's where this point comes in - I guess it's just taste.

What I did want to say is that GTA's SIDE-Activities were much more engaging and kid me... adult me still thinks there's a lot to do in these older Open-World games. I think Cyberpunk does great as a fairly linear story and flops in it's open world where the suggested possibilities are beyond what there actually is to do

It is on these points that our opinions differ

In Rock Star Game (in general), stories are goods (special mention to RDR2). But for me, it's hard to replay on those games (i don't really like multiplayer). I have the impression of doing the exact same thing again. I do not have the impression that I have with CP to be able to say to myself "I will try to do that differently than the time before" (and in Rock Star open worlds, there is nothing to loot, it can also affect my impression).

And for the activities, honestly playing golf, tennis, hunting or base jumping... I didn't find it particularly interesting. One time, yes, but no more (but that's just my opinion). In GTA V for example, after the last mission, the map feel so empty and i quit the game...

 

[BionicDance]

I think the biggest problem is when people play the game in ways they don't want to play it,

Actually, I disagree.

The biggest problem is when the game won't let you play it the way you want to play it...even though it looks like you should be able to.
Or it lets you play how you like, but it breaks things if you do.

PRIME EXAMPLE: I spent a lot of my first playthrough exploring the world, and doing various quests and things the way I wanted to do them. And when I wanted to do them. Basically, I played much of the game the way I play a Bethesda game, cuz that's the previous experience that most cleanly maps onto playing CP2077.
However, because I left the Judy missions until much, much later in the game than CDPR obviously intended, Judy left town, gave me her apartment, and was immediately back and reminiscing with V about being away for so long...all because I didn't play the game just the way CDPR intended, and didn't do the Judy missions the instance they became available.

(This actually leads me to a couple of suspicions: CDPR expected conformity to their intended playstyle and didn't make allowances for players with more independent minds, and CDPR didn't do any independent testing prior to release and it was instead done entirely in-house, thus leaving out any independent perspectives on whether the game is good.)

because they believe they are supposed to. Some of these people run through all these side quests, and they don't really care, and others want to slow down. but feel like aren't supposed to. The game is designed such that you get as much or as little as you desire from it.

Again, disagree...I desire a lot from this game that it does not provide.
Some of it comes from expectations based on playing other recent games, some of it is simply CDPR's own promo material, but needless to say, I don't get as much as I desire from this game. I get a very hollow experience that's pretty on the surface but which lacks the nutrients necessary for a complete gaming meal. It's all dessert, no meat and potatoes.

 

[LeKill3rFou]

However, because I left the Judy missions until much, much later in the game than CDPR obviously intended, Judy left town, gave me her apartment, and was immediately back and reminiscing with V about being away for so long...all because I didn't play the game just the way CDPR intended, and didn't do the Judy missions the instance they became available.

Just a little free reflexion. How it's possible to manage every possibilities of interaction with Judy (if you go in her apartment rigth after "Pyramid Song", if you wait few days or if you wait a very long time) and and to plan a specific dialog for each case.
And that for each character, each quest... there are as many ways to play as there are players...
For me, it seem impossible.

 

[BionicDance]

Just a little free reflexion. How it's possible to manage every possibilities of interaction with Judy (if you go in her apartment rigth after "Pyramid Song", if you wait few days or if you wait a very long time) and and to plan a specific dialog for each case.

Unnecessary.

Make the game have a delay. A counter. A timer.
I haven't done coding since high school--I'm an artist by trade and training--but if they put in something like...

WHEN player_finishes_Judy_quest, BEGIN Timer A;
IF Timer A reaches 'X in-game days', THEN Judy_Returns = TRUE;

Badabing, badabang, Bob's your uncle.
Since Judy returning seems to have very little effect on the game and can therefore happen at any time, this solution works in more or less any scenario regardless of whatever shenanigans the player may've pulled.

And that for each character, each quest... there are as many ways to play as there are players...
For me, it seem impossible.

Then they should have left it out.
If the player could easily break the game simply by playing in ways the game allows, then CDPR either should have left out that part of the game or found a way to keep the player on rails (without being too obvious about it!)...

 

[Ayinde_Palmer]

Actually, I disagree.

The biggest problem is when the game won't let you play it the way you want to play it...even though it looks like you should be able to.
Or it lets you play how you like, but it breaks things if you do.

PRIME EXAMPLE: I spent a lot of my first playthrough exploring the world, and doing various quests and things the way I wanted to do them. And when I wanted to do them. Basically, I played much of the game the way I play a Bethesda game, cuz that's the previous experience that most cleanly maps onto playing CP2077.
However, because I left the Judy missions until much, much later in the game than CDPR obviously intended, Judy left town, gave me her apartment, and was immediately back and reminiscing with V about being away for so long...all because I didn't play the game just the way CDPR intended, and didn't do the Judy missions the instance they became available.

(This actually leads me to a couple of suspicions: CDPR expected conformity to their intended playstyle and didn't make allowances for players with more independent minds, and CDPR didn't do any independent testing prior to release and it was instead done entirely in-house, thus leaving out any independent perspectives on whether the game is good.)



Again, disagree...I desire a lot from this game that it does not provide.
Some of it comes from expectations based on playing other recent games, some of it is simply CDPR's own promo material, but needless to say, I don't get as much as I desire from this game. I get a very hollow experience that's pretty on the surface but which lacks the nutrients necessary for a complete gaming meal. It's all dessert, no meat and potatoes.

honestly I think the Judy always being home is a bug. She sends texts saying she is in Oregon. Keep in mind as well, the game happens over the course of 2-3 weeks after the heist. Even if you rushed Judy's plotline, its still usually close to the end, due to her needing days between events.

They definitely don't expect everyone to complete the game in similar ways, they have different dialogs at different parts based on what you ve already done.

game's got bugs though.

 

[BionicDance]

honestly I think the Judy always being home is a bug. She sends texts saying she is in Oregon.

Disagree. I think it's a poorly implemented feature.

Maybe I should give a little more detail...I was at the Point of No Return and decided to finish a few things before I did it. I was at the very end of the game.
I suspect that Judy returning is triggered by certain missions being completed...but because I left the Judy quest until the very last minute, her return was triggered immediately.

Basically, after doing her missions, there was no time for her to text me because I went to her apartment right the heck away, after she gave it to me.

Keep in mind as well, the game happens over the course of 2-3 weeks after the heist. Even if you rushed Judy's plotline, its still usually close to the end, due to her needing days between events.

My point. The game assumed more time had passed after Judy gave me her apartment than actually had passed, simply because I didn't do the quest as soon as it was available. CDPR assumed I'd do those quests immediately; I guess they misjudged my feelings toward Judy, and expected me to go after the hot chick because...hot chick.

And I didn't.

This is one of the many, many reasons I think CDPR mis-judged their audience. I think they assumed we'd all play the game they way they did, the way they wanted, the way they expected, and didn't make allowances for people who don't conform.
I seriously think that this is a design flaw, not a bug.

 

[Ayinde_Palmer]

Disagree. I think it's a poorly implemented feature.

Maybe I should give a little more detail...I was at the Point of No Return and decided to finish a few things before I did it. I was at the very end of the game.
I suspect that Judy returning is triggered by certain missions being completed...but because I left the Judy quest until the very last minute, her return was triggered immediately.

Basically, after doing her missions, there was no time for her to text me because I went to her apartment right the heck away, after she gave it to me.



My point. The game assumed more time had passed after Judy gave me her apartment than actually had passed, simply because I didn't do the quest as soon as it was available. CDPR assumed I'd do those quests immediately; I guess they misjudged my feelings toward Judy, and expected me to go after the hot chick because...hot chick.

And I didn't.

This is one of the many, many reasons I think CDPR mis-judged their audience. I think they assumed we'd all play the game they way they did, the way they wanted, the way they expected, and didn't make allowances for people who don't conform.
I seriously think that this is a design flaw, not a bug.

I also saw Judy in the house, and I didnt play that long on any game. Others have also commented about Judy never leaving, but sending phone messages that she is in Oregon. She stays in town if you are romantic, pretty sure its a bug, but only the devs know for sure, maybe they'll explain one way or the other eventually