Minor spoilers: Act 2 and narrative coherence / urgency

[northwold]

*Aside from vague character references I've TRIED to avoid spoilers but if you're ultra cautious I'd avoid this post.*

I've just completed act 2 and have a few thoughts based on having got there the long way round (I've taken my time and am at level 50, having enjoyed peppering the main story with side quests and just wandering around).

As a preface, I really, really enjoy this game and don't want it to end. I'm emotionally invested in the characters and the story. So I consider it very far from a fail.

But there is something about the way the act 2 quests have been laid out that doesn't quite land, emotionally. Certain things feel as if they run too quickly to have an impact.

Most notably, the Voodoo Boys segment, although it does take some playing time, in actual story terms seems very, very compressed when it should take pride of place as *the* core driver of the act 2 narrative. They did, after all, set the events of the game in motion.

So far in my playthrough, nothing has come close to the ominous vibe of looking for Brigitte. But, just as soon as they've arrived, the Boys disappear from the story. It feels perfunctory and (unlike the complaints regarding Evelyn Parker, whom I do think had a proper arc and to whom a lot of story time is dedicated), the manner of their departure feels limp and underwhelming.

More generally, Act 2 just feels rather confused: the story baton passes between Arasaka and the Voodoo Boys via Parker without properly linking the two strands. The few lines of dialogue that would be needed properly to jump between the plots and connect their stories together simply are not there so the experience feels rather random.

I wonder whether this has come about because the developers wanted to make sure the main quest can run quickly for the most casual players, without having to play the various story side quests? Because the side quests are optional, they can't be used to develop the main story. The result is that the main story is supposed to stand alone with too little material to make it flow properly.

I also wonder, at a more practical level, if much of this couldn't be improved by a different approach to the journal.

Cyberpunk is a big game with a lot of side content. But the journal is written from the point of view of a character who knows exactly what is happening *right now*. Maybe it would have been better to have the journal remind you what the hell is going on so that the plot points really land whenever you pick up the main quest.

For instance, everyone was going on about Mikoshi at one point in my play. But I couldn't actually remember what (or who) Mikoshi was. The journal would be a useful tool to make sure those points land for a player who isn't playing the main story in one gallop, and also a tool to remind players how, for instance, the Voodoo Boys fit to Alt and how Alt fits to the Arasaka strand.

At various points I felt the story would really benefit from my being able to look at the journal and see "you're doing this because this happened and that happened".

Sorry for the rambling. Something didn't feel quite right about how act 2 fits together that I find hard to put into words, like it's teetering just shy of greatness, and I was interested in what others think about it all.

 

[LeKill3rFou]

I find it hard to see what you think is weird (but I've replayed the game quite a few times, so it certainly plays).

More generally, Act 2 just feels rather confused: the story baton passes between Arasaka and the Voodoo Boys via Parker without properly linking the two strands. The few lines of dialogue that would be needed properly to jump between the plots and connect their stories together simply are not there so the experience feels rather random.

For me, it's seem to be quite well linking (with some readings here and there).

Spoiler

-Yorinobu steals the Relic from Arasaka (no reason given).
-The heist fails, V ends up with the Relic in his head.
-Evelyn mission:
V learns that it was the VDBs who wanted the Relic and Evelyn and betray them .
-Mission with the VDBs:
V learns that Evelyn wanted to sell the Relic to Netwatch to leave Night City and and betray everyone (With Judy).
V learns that the VDBs want to access Alt to break through the black wall (with johnny's engram).
-Arasaka's Endding, V learns that Yorinobu wanted to end his father's reign much like Johnny by selling the Relic to Netwatch.

But i agree, if you play on a long time (lot of little cessions), it could be hard to follow and nothing exactly reminds the past facts. More details in the journal could be good (much more than Johnny comments).

 

[northwold]

I find it hard to see what you think is weird (but I've replayed the game quite a few times, so it certainly plays).

For me, it's seem to be quite well linking (with some readings here and there).

Spoiler

-Yorinobu steals the Relic from Arasaka (no reason given).
-The heist fails, V ends up with the Relic in his head.
-Evelyn mission:
V learns that it was the VDBs who wanted the Relic and Evelyn and betray them .
-Mission with the VDBs:
V learns that Evelyn wanted to sell the Relic to Netwatch to leave Night City and and betray everyone (With Judy).
V learns that the VDBs want to access Alt to break through the black wall (with johnny's engram).
-Arasaka's Endding, V learns that Yorinobu wanted to end his father's reign much like Johnny by selling the Relic to Netwatch.

But i agree, if you play on a long time (lot of little cessions), it could be hard to follow and nothing exactly reminds the past facts. More details in the journal could be good (much more than Johnny comments).

I think it's that the stories end up played as small bits rather than being smoothed into a single dramatic arc.

I also think the Voodoo Boys feel like an afterthought and are wasted when they should have been the glue holding it all together.

The wider worldbuilding sets up the VBs as this never seen, terrifying force. The Evelyn arc reveals the chapel almost as if the game is going to switch to a horror story and manages to create a real sense of unease. Brigitte is nowhere to be found. Who is this woman, what does she want, how scary can she possibly be.

And then, there she is, their base is a static location, their motive is simply to be a bit ahead of everyone else, and then bang bang bye bye.

It's just... Odd. Especially after devoting such a spectacular set piece (the Parade) to the Arasaka strand.

 

[LeKill3rFou]

I think it's that the stories end up played as small bits rather than being smoothed into a single dramatic arc.

I also think the Voodoo Boys feel like an afterthought and are wasted when they should have been the glue holding it altogether.

The wider worldbuilding sets up the VBs as this never seen, terrifying force. The Evelyn arc reveals the chapel almost as if the game is going to switch to a horror story and manages to create a real sense of unease. Brigitte is nowhere to be found. Who is this woman, what does she want, how scary can she possibly be.

And then, there she is, their base is a static location, their motive is simply to be a bit ahead of everyone else, and then bang bang bye bye.

It's just... Odd. Especially after devoting such a spectacular set piece (the Parade) to the Arasaka strand.

Yes, I join you on everything and I would have liked more VDBs (of everything in fact).
And who knows, the VDBs may be back in a DLC (They pierce the black wall or not ? Does Alt help them or not ?)

 

[Ayinde_Palmer]

*Aside from vague character references I've TRIED to avoid spoilers but if you're ultra cautious I'd avoid this post.*

I've just completed act 2 and have a few thoughts based on having got there the long way round (I've taken my time and am at level 50, having enjoyed peppering the main story with side quests and just wandering around).

As a preface, I really, really enjoy this game and don't want it to end. I'm emotionally invested in the characters and the story. So I consider it very far from a fail.

But there is something about the way the act 2 quests have been laid out that doesn't quite land, emotionally. Certain things feel as if they run too quickly to have an impact.

Most notably, the Voodoo Boys segment, although it does take some playing time, in actual story terms seems very, very compressed when it should take pride of place as *the* core driver of the act 2 narrative. They did, after all, set the events of the game in motion.

So far in my playthrough, nothing has come close to the ominous vibe of looking for Brigitte. But, just as soon as they've arrived, the Boys disappear from the story. It feels perfunctory and (unlike the complaints regarding Evelyn Parker, whom I do think had a proper arc and to whom a lot of story time is dedicated), the manner of their departure feels limp and underwhelming.

More generally, Act 2 just feels rather confused: the story baton passes between Arasaka and the Voodoo Boys via Parker without properly linking the two strands. The few lines of dialogue that would be needed properly to jump between the plots and connect their stories together simply are not there so the experience feels rather random.

I wonder whether this has come about because the developers wanted to make sure the main quest can run quickly for the most casual players, without having to play the various story side quests? Because the side quests are optional, they can't be used to develop the main story. The result is that the main story is supposed to stand alone with too little material to make it flow properly.

I also wonder, at a more practical level, if much of this couldn't be improved by a different approach to the journal.

Cyberpunk is a big game with a lot of side content. But the journal is written from the point of view of a character who knows exactly what is happening *right now*. Maybe it would have been better to have the journal remind you what the hell is going on so that the plot points really land whenever you pick up the main quest.

For instance, everyone was going on about Mikoshi at one point in my play. But I couldn't actually remember what (or who) Mikoshi was. The journal would be a useful tool to make sure those points land for a player who isn't playing the main story in one gallop, and also a tool to remind players how, for instance, the Voodoo Boys fit to Alt and how Alt fits to the Arasaka strand.

At various points I felt the story would really benefit from my being able to look at the journal and see "you're doing this because this happened and that happened".

Sorry for the rambling. Something didn't feel quite right about how act 2 fits together that I find hard to put into words, like it's teetering just shy of greatness, and I was interested in what others think about it all.

I would say, the VDB plotline is a bit under developed. They brush against the themes and ideas they are trying to develop, but not in depth. However, its kind of runs well in terms of tight story telling. Its more like a film pacing, than a series. I will say they could have developed the VDB/pacifica narrative more outside of MQ.

As for the 2nd chapter as a whole, its got three main plotlines. Personally the arasaka one was pretty weak at this point, and the Hellman part was mostly just an intro to the aldecados.

But thats subjective, some people love hanging with takemura and see the Arasaka plot as the important one.

I kinda wish the VDB plot/lore/story was expanded, possibly with more branches and repurcussions, but at the same time, the tension, uncertainty, and semi mystical/mysterious vibe is partially due to the lack of information, and is consistent with how they present how the VDBs interact with the outside world.

 

[northwold]

Yes, I join you on everything and I would have liked more VDBs (of everything in fact).
And who knows, the VDBs may be back in a DLC (They pierce the black wall or not ? Does Alt help them or not ?)

Here's hoping. I find them the most intriguing (and menacing) of all the players in the game.

Post automatically merged: May 10, 2021

I would say, the VDB plotline is a bit under developed. They brush against the themes and ideas they are trying to develop, but not in depth. However, its kind of runs well in terms of tight story telling. Its more like a film pacing, than a series. I will say they could have developed the VDB/pacifica narrative more outside of MQ.

As for the 2nd chapter as a whole, its got three main plotlines. Personally the arasaka one was pretty weak at this point, and the Hellman part was mostly just an intro to the aldecados.

But thats subjective, some people love hanging with takemura and see the Arasaka plot as the important one.

I kinda wish the VDB plot/lore/story was expanded, possibly with more branches and repurcussions, but at the same time, the tension, uncertainty, and semi mystical/mysterious vibe is partially due to the lack of information, and is consistent with how they present how the VDBs interact with the outside world.

In fact i think the way to resolve this if you were plotting it all from scratch would be to join the Arasaka and VB stories into a single story instead of consecutive episodes. It would need an almost wholly different plot, of course, to make their actions involve one another, but you have a second act which spins all over the place at the moment but feels heavily imbalanced towards the least narratively interesting element (Arasaka).

 

[Ayinde_Palmer]

I think it's that the stories end up played as small bits rather than being smoothed into a single dramatic arc.

I also think the Voodoo Boys feel like an afterthought and are wasted when they should have been the glue holding it all together.

The wider worldbuilding sets up the VBs as this never seen, terrifying force. The Evelyn arc reveals the chapel almost as if the game is going to switch to a horror story and manages to create a real sense of unease. Brigitte is nowhere to be found. Who is this woman, what does she want, how scary can she possibly be.

And then, there she is, their base is a static location, their motive is simply to be a bit ahead of everyone else, and then bang bang bye bye.

It's just... Odd. Especially after devoting such a spectacular set piece (the Parade) to the Arasaka strand.

ehh not exactly, the end of the VDBs is link to the whole old net/alt/digital afterlife. The final piece is a spooky foray into the net, with possibilities of betrayal, and a deal with a djinn. The VDBs are, from the lore supposed to disappear and be hard to find/deal with. Their goal isn't simply to be ahead of everyone, but a rejection of the NC corporate, and real world paradigm. A belief that the digital world will supplant the material. It introduces a whole new aspect of the game world, rarely developed elsewhere.


I agree that there is a lot more that could be developed, and some pretty compelling stories from that perspective. But it is kind of a totally different story than the rest of the game, and in the context of V's material survival, its just a smaller ghost story.

It would be some dlc, i would be interested in engaging with even if its not after the ending dlc though. The VDB's/pacifica's culture is fascinating, and the overlap with the digital world, netwatch, corporations, net would be great. Especially if they could further develop their perspective.

 

[Didacgomez]

ehh not exactly, the end of the VDBs is link to the whole old net/alt/digital afterlife. The final piece is a spooky foray into the net, with possibilities of betrayal, and a deal with a djinn. The VDBs are, from the lore supposed to disappear and be hard to find/deal with. Their goal isn't simply to be ahead of everyone, but a rejection of the NC corporate, and real world paradigm. A belief that the digital world will supplant the material. It introduces a whole new aspect of the game world, rarely developed elsewhere.


I agree that there is a lot more that could be developed, and some pretty compelling stories from that perspective. But it is kind of a totally different story than the rest of the game, and in the context of V's material survival, its just a smaller ghost story.

It would be some dlc, i would be interested in engaging with even if its not after the ending dlc though. The VDB's/pacifica's culture is fascinating, and the overlap with the digital world, netwatch, corporations, net would be great. Especially if they could further develop their perspective.

+ VDBs are just a giant tribute to "Count Zero", is why i'm not sure they are gonna be developed much more. Their purpose as you said was to provide a story link with one of the endings.

 

[Ayinde_Palmer]

Here's hoping. I find them the most intriguing (and menacing) of all the players in the game.

Post automatically merged: May 10, 2021

In fact i think the way to resolve this if you were plotting it all from scratch would be to join the Arasaka and VB stories into a single story instead of consecutive episodes. It would need an almost wholly different plot, of course, to make their actions involve one another, but you have a second act which spins all over the place at the moment but feels heavily imbalanced towards the least narratively interesting element (Arasaka).

It may tie in with the digital side of arasaka, netrunners, and hanako/mikoshi. But its a very different type of story in that case, not as grounded in reality and survival. It probably works better if the main narrative was from a more netrunner standpoint. I agree its worth developing to me. But to be honest, for most people that plotline is just about getting alt to save you, and getting revenge for Evelyn.

A minority seem to want to know the VDB perspective, more details about the old net, netwatch, etc

But yeah, I think it would be worth a whole game/story to explore that stuff. There is a whole aspect missing from this version of the cyberpunk world

Post automatically merged: May 10, 2021

+ VDBs are just a giant tribute to "Count Zero", is why i'm not sure they are gonna be developed much more. Their purpose as you said was to provide a story link with one of the endings.

I think they serve greater purpose in the overall story of NC/the world, but in this solo heavy story there is not much more for them to do.

 

[northwold]

It may tie in with the digital side of arasaka, netrunners, and hanako/mikoshi. But its a very different type of story in that case, not as grounded in reality and survival. It probably works better if the main narrative was from a more netrunner standpoint. I agree its worth developing to me. But to be honest, for most people that plotline is just about getting alt to save you, and getting revenge for Evelyn.

A minority seem to want to know the VDB perspective, more details about the old net, netwatch, etc

But yeah, I think it would be worth a whole game/story to explore that stuff. There is a whole aspect missing from this version of the cyberpunk world

Post automatically merged: May 10, 2021

I think they serve greater purpose in the overall story of NC/the world, but in this solo heavy story there is not much more for them to do.

I think to me what struck me as odd is that, if you have decided to go down that plot route, why draw it to such a perfunctory close. Given the very effective narrative work done to introduce Brigitte, why on earth can I then simply shoot her in the head and carry on merrily with the rest of my life. Even having her escape would have been more satisfactory: the threat would still be out there, somewhere, even if it was never touched again by the story.

 

[Didacgomez]

It may tie in with the digital side of arasaka, netrunners, and hanako/mikoshi. But its a very different type of story in that case, not as grounded in reality and survival. It probably works better if the main narrative was from a more netrunner standpoint. I agree its worth developing to me. But to be honest, for most people that plotline is just about getting alt to save you, and getting revenge for Evelyn.

A minority seem to want to know the VDB perspective, more details about the old net, netwatch, etc

But yeah, I think it would be worth a whole game/story to explore that stuff. There is a whole aspect missing from this version of the cyberpunk world

Post automatically merged: May 10, 2021

I think they serve greater purpose in the overall story of NC/the world, but in this solo heavy story there is not much more for them to do.

They might elaborate later on them, but really they felt exactly as Lucas and Beavoir in the novel . The interesting stuff on the Net,doesn't need them.
And depending on player actions,they receive a serious blow.

 

[LeKill3rFou]

Come to think of it, a lot of things are underdeveloped for me (the VDBs, Alt/VDBs, Dream On, Behind the Black Wall...), but there may be a reason behind (DLCs) or just that I love Cyberpunk and how says "when you love, there is never enough".

 

[Ayinde_Palmer]

I think to me what struck me as odd is that, if you have decided to go down that plot route, why draw it to such a perfunctory close. Given the very effective narrative work done to introduce Brigitte, why on earth can I then simply shoot her in the head and carry on merrily with the rest of my life. Even having her escape would have been more satisfactory: the threat would still be out there, somewhere, even if it was never touched again by the story.

Most likely birgittes story is over, unless she becomes a ghost in the net somehow. 2 out of 3 possible progressions lead to her demise. Probably if the VDB plotlines continue, it would be through placide or a new group within VDBs. Even should she survive, she would probably be an antagonist in that side story. Its suggested that she may not be living up to the VDB ideals, and be more self oriented. However, her death isnt guaranteed, you can still walk away. Though its implied netwatch may attack them again.

 

[AikoHayashi]

I think to me what struck me as odd is that, if you have decided to go down that plot route, why draw it to such a perfunctory close. Given the very effective narrative work done to introduce Brigitte, why on earth can I then simply shoot her in the head and carry on merrily with the rest of my life. Even having her escape would have been more satisfactory: the threat would still be out there, somewhere, even if it was never touched again by the story.

You can kill Bridgitte, Alt can kill her, you can let her live. If you let her live Placide sends the warning to watch your back.
I personally would like to see more Night Corpo, Netwatch, Peralez, or Gary quests continued. We all have long wishlists. Let's hope that we'll see some stuff in future DLC.

 

[Ayinde_Palmer]

They might elaborate later on them, but really they felt exactly as Lucas and Beavoir in the novel . The interesting stuff on the Net,doesn't need them.
And depending on player actions,they receive a serious blow.

they are essentially the main most highly skilled humans on the net representing the pro convergence of AI and humans. If they were going to explore the blackwall and the old net. The VDBs would definitely be a faction in that plotline.

You got netwatch, the anti group, the VDBs the pro group, and the NC netrunners, the outsiders between both trying to unlock the secrets. Outside of the net they have some of the best pirate old net tech. Politically they create and maintain a community in Pacifica that isn't dominated by commercialism, or corporation, or even a corrupt government. They have a different hidden culture within NC.

there is a lot to explore there, if they choose to do so.

That said within this games story, and focus, they are just V's weird brush with the old net, and a mysterious unfathomable culture. Which does kind of suck. V within this plotline is a bit dense. They brush aside the major implications of the deal with Alt, they never try to understand whats going on in Pacifica, and with the net, and netwatch, and AIs. Its clear there is a lot more to this corner of the universe.

But V just seeks to stay ignorant.

Post automatically merged: May 10, 2021

Come to think of it, a lot of things are underdeveloped for me (the VDBs, Alt/VDBs, Dream On, Behind the Black Wall...), but there may be a reason behind (DLCs) or just that I love Cyberpunk and how says "when you love, there is never enough".

to be honest, within V's story, this is probably not going to be developed. Blue Eyes seems to be a part of the future, but I dunno about the rest. Its one reason I wouldn't mind some different POV charachters, there are somethings it seemed like V just won't really explore/engage with, based on their story at this point.

 

[northwold]

You can kill Bridgitte, Alt can kill her, you can let her live. If you let her live Placide sends the warning to watch your back.
I personally would like to see more Night Corpo, Netwatch, Peralez, or Gary quests continued. We all have long wishlists. Let's hope that we'll see some stuff in future DLC.

Going back to the point of the original post, my beef is more that how the main story quests interact together feels rather scattergun and inconsistent. I didn't get the sense, when playing, that they properly lined up in terms of either emotional or storytelling weight, nor indeed that they'd been sufficiently linked in the narrative to be coherent as a whole. It's in that context that the Voodoo Boys strand really stands out to me as "so we got one of the biggest set pieces in the game for Arasaka and the scary Voodoo people who've been built up almost since the get-go get THAT?"

Some of that impression, perhaps, could be helped by giving the player a better sense of place in the journal entries. If the core purpose of these story points is reminded to the viewer (VBs are about Alt, not the VBs themselves, for instance), it can be made to feel less random.

 

[AikoHayashi]

Going back to the point of the original post, my beef is more that how the main story quests interact together feels rather scattergun and inconsistent. I didn't get the sense, when playing, that they proper lined up in terms of either emotional or storytelling weight. It's in that context that the Voodoo Boys strand really stands out to me as "so we got one of the biggest set pieces in the game for Arasaka and the scary Voodoo people get THAT?"

Some of that impression, perhaps, could be helped by giving the player a better sense of place in the journal entries.

I guess this is all about players' perception. For me for example this part was really good, but I totally can understand why people can have a problem with it. The good thing is that CDPR are really checking de feedbacks from the players and I hope that they will have the chance to do some things in this game better, or at least keep it in mind for the next games.

 

[LeKill3rFou]

Some of that impression, perhaps, could be helped by giving the player a better sense of place in the journal entries. If the core purpose of these story points is reminded to the viewer (VBs are about Alt, not the VBs themselves, for instance), it can be made to feel less random.

Just about the red text (maybe i misunderstood)
V don't know about VDB and Alt until Brigitte tells him, so impossible to mention it before. So if CDPR announced in the journal (or somewhere else) for "M'ap Tann Pèlen" or for "I walk The Line" that it is for Alt that the VDBs wanted the Relic, that would break the surprise

 

[northwold]

Just about the red text (maybe i misunderstood)
V don't know about VDB and Alt until Brigitte tells him, so impossible to mention it before. So if CDPR announced in the journal (or somewhere else) for "M'ap Tann Pèlen" or for "I walk The Line" that it is for Alt that the VDBs wanted the Relic, that would break the surprise

Indeed - - I know. And that's part, I think, of why it feels rather scattergun. Alt herself is underdeveloped and seems to be established only at the last point possible. Indeed, that contributed to the very uneven treatment I felt when dealing with different aspects of the main story.

If they set up the VBs as this big thing and then say "oh actually it was this all along and we fooled you", the switch needs to be at least as impressive as the bait. It needs to be earned.

To be honest, it's possible that this is a plot that actually needed to be on rails, rather than thrown into an open world.

 

[Didacgomez]

Indeed - - I know. And that's part, I think, of why it feels rather scattergun. Alt herself is underdeveloped and seems to be established only at the last point possible. Indeed, that contributed to the very uneven treatment I felt when dealing with different aspects of the main story.

If they set up the VBs as this big thing and then say "oh actually it was this all along and we fooled you", the switch needs to be at least as impressive as the bait. It needs to be earned.

To be honest, it's possible that this is a plot that actually needed to be on rails, rather than thrown into an open world.

I'm not really sure that the story (story coherence perhaps?) would have changed that much in a hub based design , I mean the story writing would have been the same.
Some of the complains that I see about underdeveloping VDBs (just to use the topic under discussion as example, could be other plotlines that people felt too open ended) I think are more rooted in the style of the source RPG and the base literature than in the open world vs hub based design.
Many times the protagonist is just a mr/mrs/miss nobody that get caught in something bigger and tries to survive/escape from that situation, with limited resources and visibility of what is going on in the background and under risk of being manipulated by one or other "power actor". In terms of the world as a whole nobody cares about them, even if by accident they are involved in some big world event.

Maybe the game would have benefitted by an actual journal written by V that as you progress the story unfolds and summarizes it?