Do you think CDPR will improve the AI in future updates?

[MrGuyton]

well, the approach they chosen is very old, does not scale, gets complicated very quickly, it was used in 00s. It will be very hard to implement competent ai with it. Also with this approach ai will get stuck and do pretty stupid things easier to build from scratch, simply speaking it is not able to adapt to player actions. And FSM approach they choosen is not favored by devs, as it is not interesting work.

Hey, what does sme and fsm mean please? (Where I'm from that's small to medium enterprises and free school meals but obviously not in ai and coding )

 

[a3n3a]

Hey, what does sme and fsm mean please? (Where I'm from that's small to medium enterprises and free school meals but obviously not in ai and coding )

Could be that he's referencing https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Finite-state_machine
---

You know, I was optimistic that CDPR would be able to fix the underlying AI issues. I've listened to one of the first 'leaked' investors board meetings where they said the AI deficiencies are viewed as bugs, and they would fix them.

But then they released the police fix and this really dialed down my expecations by a lot.
The "fix" they published only seems to make the cops spawn a bit further away.... I was really disappointed by this.
Disappointment which was increased because they seemed to have but quite a bit of marketing into hyping the fix. Again, there seems to be a BRICK WALL between these teams, it's like they are two completely DISCONNECTED entities within the CDPR machinery: they do NOT see eye to eye. WHY would you ever hype this fix, if basically all that is happening is an increase to the spawn radius??

Though I can only hope i'm just deadwrong and we get a nice update which actually tries to solve some of the fundamental issues .

 

[Spockprime]

I'm not sure how to vote on this one. I think the answer is yes, but not until the next game. I don't anticipate many significant improvements to the AI in the present game. Not sure where that fits in the poll.

 

[MrGuyton]

Could be that he's referencing https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Finite-state_machine
---

You know, I was optimistic that CDPR would be able to fix the underlying AI issues. I've listened to one of the first 'leaked' investors board meetings where they said the AI deficiencies are viewed as bugs, and they would fix them.

But then they released the police fix and this really dialed down my expecations by a lot.
The "fix" they published only seems to make the cops spawn a bit further away.... I was really disappointed by this.
Disappointment which was increased because they seemed to have but quite a bit of marketing into hyping the fix. Again, there seems to be a BRICK WALL between these teams, it's like they are two completely DISCONNECTED entities within the CDPR machinery: they do NOT see eye to eye. WHY would you ever hype this fix, if basically all that is happening is an increase to the spawn radius??

Though I can only hope i'm just deadwrong and we get a nice update which actually tries to solve some of the fundamental issues .

@somewherebeyond

Assuming @a3n3a is correct and you mean Finite state machines, I don't understand what massive difference they would make? Looking at the Wikipedia article, they seem to be a type of decision matrix?

@Darkibone or @simon_brooke could you explain? (These guys had some really helpful input on this thread https://forums.cdprojektred.com/index.php?threads/how-does-ai-work-and-is-it-really-ai.11083648/ )

 

[tru3story]

Voted for 'Superficial fixes only' as I don't really see how npc's "AI" could actually be improved since it's non-existent in a first place. I mean, it's not actually learning anything per se. It's just following the path. As I see it, they could add more dialogue options, so crowd feels more 'alive', even if it leads nowhere. And clones... something could be done about the clones.
As for cars, I really like how cars behave in certain missions - becoming more of an obstacle. Even in normal playthrough you can notice how vehicles bump into you, if you're driving too close, or out of your lane - accidental or not, think it's a nice touch! But it's nothing new.

 

[Guest 4564903]

I voted superficial but even that is near impossible for me to really expect.

So glad I never bought this game when it released and never believed the hype as in its current state with mods I am really loving the game so in reality I don't care if they fix things like AI which is probably a good thing as I doubt they will so I won't get disappointed.

 

[Darkibone]

Assuming @a3n3a is correct and you mean Finite state machines, I don't understand what massive difference they would make? Looking at the Wikipedia article, they seem to be a type of decision matrix?

I think @somewherebeyond meant that Cyberpunk is using finite state machines, as opposed to the more "modern" hirarchical behaviour trees.

Dunno if that is true, but it matters little: Finite state machines and behaviour trees are functionally equivalent. The latter require less repitition and are therefore a bit easier to handle by humans, but thats about it. You can even write code which will convert (flatten) a behaviour tree into a "pure" fsm, which might even be part of CDPRs internal toolchain.

I dunno if CDPR is going to provide improved AI scripts eventually, but from a technical standpoint the engine seems to already contain enough features to do any AI behaviour you might want it to...

And if CDPR doesn't, modders should be able to pick up the slack...

 

[GogRelvas]

Could be that he's referencing https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Finite-state_machine
---

You know, I was optimistic that CDPR would be able to fix the underlying AI issues. I've listened to one of the first 'leaked' investors board meetings where they said the AI deficiencies are viewed as bugs, and they would fix them.

But then they released the police fix and this really dialed down my expecations by a lot.
The "fix" they published only seems to make the cops spawn a bit further away.... I was really disappointed by this.
Disappointment which was increased because they seemed to have but quite a bit of marketing into hyping the fix. Again, there seems to be a BRICK WALL between these teams, it's like they are two completely DISCONNECTED entities within the CDPR machinery: they do NOT see eye to eye. WHY would you ever hype this fix, if basically all that is happening is an increase to the spawn radius??

Though I can only hope i'm just deadwrong and we get a nice update which actually tries to solve some of the fundamental issues .

I'm with you. Inicially CDPR stated the AI state as a bug (thank you I didn't remember it was at the board meeting), which made me optimistic, then the police fix could just be a place holder AI fast remix but still a place holder.
But recently Pawel Sazco on his live streams talked about the AI as in "we're not trying to make smarter AI, that would be easy to do but we are trying to simulate people who make mistakes and flawed decisions, otherwise tge game would get incredibly difficult". Something along those lines. So I hear this as a deflection. He's obviously only talking about combat AI but that's not the main discussion around AI. It excludes traffic AI, pedestrians AI and even in combat, netrunner combat is lacking a lot, there has to be more they can do without causing an overwhelming difficulty to combat.
But all this to say that now I don't know what kind of changes to expect in terms of AI

 

[Guest 4564903]

What Pawel Sazco said basically means in my mind AI in terms of NPC's and police is not going to change and combat AI is not going to have any really meaningful changes.

Thank god for modders!

 

[LeKill3rFou]

For NPCs and cars, i agree could be better (if it's considered like an AI) and I really hope CDPR will improve it.
For enemies (in/out of combat), with my little experience, I find them not that stupid. If it stays like that, it doesn't really bother me.

 

[_Fender_]

Yeah, I know that some people have high expectations towards how smart AI can be in combat, but I dont think its CDP goal to make it very demanding and hard. If we take into account how many different styles of combat we may have - stealth, guns blazing, hacks, melee weapons, I think overall AI responds to all of that pretty well. Yeah I find it quite easy in a lot of places but this is speaking from a perspective of a person who spend +300hours in game and knows system by now. Most of people will probably find it rather difficult to go fully stealth at most part of they playthrough. This is also not a game only for FPP shooters audience so they cant go too deep with how hard it is.

 

[GogRelvas]

Yeah, I know that some people have high expectations towards how smart AI can be in combat, but I dont think its CDP goal to make it very demanding and hard. If we take into account how many different styles of combat we may have - stealth, guns blazing, hacks, melee weapons, I think overall AI responds to all of that pretty well. Yeah I find it quite easy in a lot of places but this is speaking from a perspective of a person who spend +300hours in game and knows system by now. Most of people will probably find it rather difficult to go fully stealth at most part of they playthrough. This is also not a game only for FPP shooters audience so they cant go too deep with how hard it is.

In my opinion in Very Hard mode it could be harder. Ideally the difficulty level should separate the players who view themselves as wanting a challenge in the FPS gameplay department or less so.
The enemy netrunners are missing a lot for me and (i play on console) I saw there's a cool mod for it, I also wish, like in the witcher 3, they add an option to have weaker enemies level up to player level. It's always more satisfying to see that our dominion of the gameplay got better with the enhancements also, rather then now the enemies die faster. Don't allow us to even "practice" our gameplay development...

 

[Guest 4564903]

In my opinion in Very Hard mode it could be harder. Ideally the difficulty level should separate the players who view themselves as wanting a challenge in the FPS gameplay department or less so.
The enemy netrunners are missing a lot for me and (i play on console) I saw there's a cool mod for it, I also wish, like in the witcher 3, they add an option to have weaker enemies level up to player level. It's always more satisfying to see that our dominion of the gameplay got better with the enhancements also, rather then now the enemies die faster. Don't allow us to even "practice" our gameplay development...

Its a real pity console players cannot get access to mods as the Netrunner mod and level scaling mod would do exactly what you want. I use them and they really add a lot to the game.

 

[Satori88]

Nah, braindead AI that reacts to you standing in front of them 4 seconds later apparently is "by design" when you listened to the developer talk. Or AI stuck into the pavement after you shoot them ones. Chugging infinite amounts of inhalers without any downsides makes all of this even worse, literally no challenge in this game.

 

[Netrunner2go]

Nah, braindead AI that reacts to you standing in front of them 4 seconds later apparently is "by design" when you listened to the developer talk. Or AI stuck into the pavement after you shoot them ones. Chugging infinite amounts of inhalers without any downsides makes all of this even worse, literally no challenge in this game.

everything whats cut or halfebaked is claimed as "design choice" - what should they say? "we know its boring, below standart and not working at all but we didnt care cause xmas cash was more important?" cmn... "by design" or "design choice" is abused kinda hard for excuses in this game. and actually we all know it. lifepaths, street creed, openworld activities, vehicle ai, police ai, gangs, apartments, monorail, etc etc etc are all "design choices" because of missing time to complete and quality check them by time. nothing more nothing less. "design choice" in cp is more a meme like anything else.

 

[BabaBooey88]

• * "AI" as in the behaviour of crowds and cars, how they react to environmental changes, disappear/change when you turn 360°, etc.

I fear that after the game breaking bugs are fixed, CDPR will let the AI be as it is right now: braindead.
Even though I truly enjoy this game, I find this deficit to be a serious blocking factor for replays, because you tend to notice these things more and more.

That's very likely. They may be so lacking in capability that just paying back the government grant and whatever fines turn out cheaper than delivering on the promised results of the grant in the first place.

 

[offonoffon30]

Would be pretty cool if they did, superficial changes alone would change the way how the game feels for the better.

 

[Franc_Kaos]

Dying Light (2015) by another Polish Developer had NPCs that if you rescued them from zombies would thank / reward you and run off (sometimes straight into another bunch of zombies) - it made you feel like part of the world. In 2077 if you rescue some civilian's from a gang they generally just stand there and are completely uninteractive (or they just walk off) or stay in the kneeling pose... It utterly rips you out of the fantasy.

I don't understand how anyone can defend these broken mechanics. The AI is broken!

You made millions so ask Rockstar or that other Polish developer to help fix (or actually create?) the AI (and give 'em some of that 28 million you got in bonuses (management not the devs)).

We don't need every npc to have a full routine, we don't need every car to have a destination, we don't need police to drive from the station when a crime gets reported - but we do need smoke and mirrors to believe that might be happening.

 

[CP20771010]

I would hope so, if only I still had faith in this developer.
But I don't see why it should fix something that should already be working today.

Some players just doesn't see the issues, or they doesn't have consumer standard.
So why they should bother?
Do lesser and no complaints from a cut of a community.