You would have a point here IF choosing one over the other actually mattered. When it happened for the first time in my playthrough it did made me stop for a second, because I thought that ignoring one while traveling to other will have consequences, but seeing that in reality they will always wait for me, no matter how long, makes the whole ordeal rather lackluster. There is no weight and no purpose past that revelation, because player knows, that there is no difference, no choice that would matter. Which is a shame, because they could have done so much more with it, but instead went with the easiest solution of making things like that meaningless.
But Alt's Soulkiller is the reason they are able to put Johnny on the chip. The story could easily diverge to either go with Arasaka, meet with Hanako, etc. or to completely ditch them and find Voodoo Boys and Alt. V will probably still end up in Arasaka Tower to access Mikoshi, but working with Takemura, parade, meeting Hanako isn't really necessary for it to happen. I mean, if you chose either Sun or Star ending, everything you did with Takemura doesn't really matter, so why force it on player? When I played CP77 I thought the conversation with Takemura in the diner was some sort of crossroads, where you can choose to either go with Takemura's plan and find Hellman or to go with investigating Evelyn's part in the heist. I don't understand why we need to complete both roads to get to the ending, other than that probably from CDPR's perspective only one would make the story too short, but it's on them for creating such a brief storyline, and artificially prolonging it isn't really helping here.
I think its true they easily could have made separate paths. The connection between the 3 major plotlines isn't that deep.
Well, it kinda makes sense from an Arasaka point of view. finding hellman, and getting them alt is a major win. And hellman is directly incorporated in Arasaka plot.
but, from the nomad and afterlife side you don't need them.
ultimately they decided on a base narrative that would expose you to all the options, and also seem pretty full. and then optional narratives that you can develop, which they exposed you to.
a sun path that never touches the star related plotlines would seem pretty bare. I think they just wanted the minimum amount of story not to be small, and they didnt want to have a weird main mission paradigm that couldn't guide players to the ending.
personally I find takemura plotline to be comparitively boring, and wish I could skip it. But its probably needed for a base playthrough.
I agree the story could be different
But how gigantic will be the work for that kind of multiple way story ?
It's insane and not possible (or yes, but the game will be released in 5 years)
And it's not that intrusive (The Relic's malfunction). Apart in the main quests, you don't see often johnny and have relic malfunction.
If you play like me (lot of replay) :
You rush the Heist.
- Either you rush through the main quests and reach the point of no return without doing anything else.
- Ethier you don't do any main quests before clear the map (like me).
By doing that, it gives you a lot of playtime without having to go through Johnny or the Relic problems.
You would have a point here IF choosing one over the other actually mattered. When it happened for the first time in my playthrough it did made me stop for a second, because I thought that ignoring one while traveling to other will have consequences, but seeing that in reality they will always wait for me, no matter how long, makes the whole ordeal rather lackluster. There is no weight and no purpose past that revelation, because player knows, that there is no difference, no choice that would matter. Which is a shame, because they could have done so much more with it, but instead went with the easiest solution of making things like that meaningless.
Eh, players like to see exaggerated consequences. the truth is takamura has no choice but to wait for V, and Judy or pan am would be bad partners if putting them off for a day made them drop you. The important thing is the feeling of the choice, where you decide whats more important to you.
If you call out of work to spend time with your wife, or you go in to help finish the project, that one choice rarely will have large consequences. However it tells you a lot about what type of person you are. And what type of person you are, is actually what leads to what happens in the long term.
and in the moment, that feeling of knowing, this is whats important is the point.
and as a side note, I have seen a lot of complaints about every exclusive choice they put in, I don't think overall players prefer being locked out based on their decisions. Many people would prefer the decision on the roof not to effect your ending options. Or find takamura hidden survival option evil. Or a car you need to lose panam to get bad.
The consequences are mostly based on what you choose to do, not really on certain choices eliminating others.
I think they decided players don't really want to be locked out much
Eh, players like to see exaggerated consequences. the truth is takamura has no choice but to wait for V, and Judy or pan am would be bad partners if putting them off for a day made them drop you. The important thing is the feeling of the choice, where you decide whats more important to you.
If you call out of work to spend time with your wife, or you go in to help finish the project, that one choice rarely will have large consequences. However it tells you a lot about what type of person you are. And what type of person you are, is actually what leads to what happens in the long term.
and in the moment, that feeling of knowing, this is whats important is the point.
and as a side note, I have seen a lot of complaints about every exclusive choice they put in, I don't think overall players prefer being locked out based on their decisions. Many people would prefer the decision on the roof not to effect your ending options. Or find takamura hidden survival option evil. Or a car you need to lose panam to get bad.
The consequences are mostly based on what you choose to do, not really on certain choices eliminating others.
I think they decided players don't really want to be locked out much
Of course Takemura has no choice but to wait, but here's a kicker - I don't want to work with him. That's the choice I make, but the game force me to work with him, even though everything we do together doesn't matter for any ending other than The Devil. It could easily be done so that you could completely ignore Takemura's plan and go on to find Alt, cause these storylines aren't really connected. That's why this whole story is completely, utterly artificial and rather boring - there are really no stakes here.
How can I choose what's important for me, when it doesn't matter? I choose not to answer Takemura, cause I want to investigate Evelyn involvement? Too bad, says the game, you still need to go with Takemura, cause I don't give a sh*t of what's important to you.
Its been a while(if i messed up please correct,i'm getting old and memory fails),but it is not Hanako who tells V about Mikoshi point of access location in Arasaka tower? V knows about Mikoshi etc... but doesn't know where is situated which makes sense since is an Arasaka top-secret.
V is not a defined person. There are reasons why certain versions of V wouldn't rush the MQ. No solution V is offered is anything but a gamble.
The story is designed that the V who chooses to live life, while trying to survive feels more fulfilled than the onewho only focuses on survival. Thats not an accident, its kinda the point.
at the end of the day, death is not avoidable, once you realize that, the question is how, and why did you live. They wanted you to feel that pressure, pushing you to the obvious/least fulfilling path. To master that fear, and live an entertaining life in spite of it. Thats not to say don't try to live, but do it your way.
That said, that's not something people understand easily, and it goes against some of the paradigms of human life, to search for stability, take the beaten path, that if you do the recommended thing, you will be rewarded.
Rebelling, facing insurmountable odds, and doing it your own way is one of the big ideas of Pondsmith's cyberpunk.
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ehh, Jackie isn't actually that average, he lights up the shitfest that is NC and makes people feel hope, like they could make a difference, or change things for themselves. Which in NC is super rare. People are attracted to him, and want to see him succeed. He takes V out the gutter, gives him a home/job/etc. He is also probably fairly capable as a solo.
If done well, the time spent with Jackie could have been excellent.
however, this isn't that game. This game is mostly about crawling from the gutter with nothing in a world that tries to destroy you every day. With death around the corner.
And if they let you live the dream with Jackie longer, the focus changes, also the fall might be too hard for players to want to keep playing. Imagine you spend 20 hours with this guy, building up to a great success, putting in work, having a blast, maybe a romance(t bug?). then he dies, your dreams die, t-bug dies, reputations done. I think even more people would rage at the story's pessimism.
I would love that extra time with Jackie and to feel deeper his death. The effect of Jackie's death is rippled throughout the rest of the game. It would be great to have had the player experience of this alongside the narrative development (I mean in the proportion, a longer begining of story gameplay).
That feeling you describe is developed well but the game is, fortunately, multilayered and could afford (in my view) to make us feel the dream part a bit longer (could even be a lot of the gigs that are available in the map now, be available in that section. And just some extra are done with Jackie, so storywise V and Jackie did solo jobs as well as the two of them when a fixer so wished).
Its been a while(if i messed up please correct,i'm getting old and memory fails),but it is not Hanako who tells V about Mikoshi point of access location in Arasaka tower? V knows about Mikoshi etc... but doesn't know where is situated which makes sense since is an Arasaka top-secret.
yes, but its something a number of the players involved would have probably figured out on their own
1)Alt who has superior network capabilities and has attacked multiple times.
2)Johnny and rogue, who last couple of times, it was in the basement of arasaka tower(of the time). As well, rogue is connected to Michiko arasaka, and mentions she's been in the general area before.
3)the nomads, who were planning to infilitrate arasaka, and had plans of the area. And from a text someone posted in this forum, panam was working this angle for v's benefit as well.
Its more obviously a loose connection to make it all come together somewhat, rather than a deeply connected plot point. Likewise the hellman part in relation to the sun ending. you don't really need hellman or his info for alt's plan. Although it doesn't hurt.
I'm not saying they have to change it, but its not really narratively necessary to get the info from hanako. They decided they wanted all paths to converge at hotel hanako for various reasons. Mostly game structure I would guess.
I would love that extra time with Jackie and to feel deeper his death. The effect of Jackie's death is rippled throughout the rest of the game. It would be great to have had the player experience of this alongside the narrative development (I mean in the proportion, a longer begining of story gameplay).
That feeling you describe is developed well but the game is, fortunately, multilayered and could afford (in my view) to make us feel the dream part a bit longer (could even be a lot of the gigs that are available in the map now, be available in that section. And just some extra are done with Jackie, so storywise V and Jackie did solo jobs as well as the two of them when a fixer so wished).
I think that developing Jackie/hopeful V past what we saw, isn't a bad idea, but its also story structure wise, not a great choice. Its actually more like a prequel than a part of this story. in a different medium it would have worked.
season 1 Vs origin->to dex betrayal
season 2 current title card --> decision in mikoshi
season 3 epilogues--->future
but combining one and two in one story(with more weight) makes the narrative structure weird, two climaxes, etc. They already dealt with this a bit, but it would be even more so.
Of course Takemura has no choice but to wait, but here's a kicker - I don't want to work with him. That's the choice I make, but the game force me to work with him, even though everything we do together doesn't matter for any ending other than The Devil. It could easily be done so that you could completely ignore Takemura's plan and go on to find Alt, cause these storylines aren't really connected. That's why this whole story is completely, utterly artificial and rather boring - there are really no stakes here.
How can I choose what's important for me, when it doesn't matter? I choose not to answer Takemura, cause I want to investigate Evelyn involvement? Too bad, says the game, you still need to go with Takemura, cause I don't give a sh*t of what's important to you.
Alt's only solution is to soul kill V and during the conversation with her is clear that this changes a lot things. It is logical that V wants to check if Arasaka can offer a better solution. Alt is the creator of soul killer, but the relic is created by Arasaka and they have also the best probability to remove the relic without killing V. Only after the parade and especially after the meeting with Hanako is clear that looking for help from Arsaka is maybe not the best solution. Of course, it is possible to make Arasaka's path skippable and it would be good for the people who don't want to follow this path, but it still has to be done in a way that makes sense.
Alt's only solution is to soul kill V and during the conversation with her is clear that this changes a lot things. It is logical that V wants to check if Arasaka can offer a better solution. Alt is the creator of soul killer, but the relic is created by Arasaka and they have also the best probability to remove the relic without killing V. Only after the parade and especially after the meeting with Hanako is clear that looking for help from Arsaka is maybe not the best solution. Of course, it is possible to make Arasaka's path skippable and it would be good for the people who don't want to follow this path, but it still has to be done in a way that makes sense.
But this should be player's agency to seek different solution if, while roleplaying our V, we don't find Alt's plan satisfactory. Otherwise, Cyberpunk 2077 shouldn't be constructed or considered an RPG at all.
But this should be player's agency to seek different solution if, while roleplaying our V, we don't find Alt's plan satisfactory. Otherwise, Cyberpunk 2077 shouldn't be constructed or considered an RPG at all.
thats why they official changed the genre from rpg to action adventure pretty fast after release. cause it just isnt a rpg like they thought it would be on release.
But this should be player's agency to seek different solution if, while roleplaying our V, we don't find Alt's plan satisfactory. Otherwise, Cyberpunk 2077 shouldn't be constructed or considered an RPG at all.
rpg doesnt mean you do whatever you want. No videogame rpg has lived up to that concept. I get you would prefer different choices were made, but at the end of the day, people creating something must make choices, there's no point in consuming art expecting that it will get it right for you specifically, all the time.
Its not mechanically wrong to connect the stories instead of separate them, there are pluses and minuses to either choice.
thats why they official changed the genre from rpg to action adventure pretty fast after release. cause it just isnt a rpg like they thought it would be on release.
But this should be player's agency to seek different solution if, while roleplaying our V, we don't find Alt's plan satisfactory. Otherwise, Cyberpunk 2077 shouldn't be constructed or considered an RPG at all.
I guess is not easy to make everybody completely happy. I like the paths and the story at all, I don't like the behavior of my V at the Sun ending. I would like better romance options while some people say that the game is not a dating SIM. Some people want more Jackie, some people want more Evelyn, some people would like to shut down Johnny from the beginning. For CDPR this will be a process of learning what they could do better while staying true to their principles and make more players satisfied.
For me, the game is RPG and not because it has this tag on Steam or GOG, but because I feel it like RPG.
thats why they official changed the genre from rpg to action adventure pretty fast after release. cause it just isnt a rpg like they thought it would be on release.
I don't actually agree with that because the time you spend with Jackie would quickly devolve into treading water waiting to get to the main plot, and while I'm sure some players have an interest in playing around at little crime jobs with someone who is, to all intents and purposes, a complete nobody, there are other players to whom that is simply not interesting (me included) and who want a proper narrative arc. There would be nothing in the opening that would make me interested enough to keep playing.
Personally, I like Jackie, but he's not exactly the most interesting character in the game. He's there to be your mate and your introduction, to hold your hand while you learn how to fire a gun and jump on things, do just enough for you to get fond of him, and then to disappear. His inherent averageness would become a problem if you had to engage in meaningless quests with him for a protracted period of time.
What I did think could have benefited from more shaping is how the Act 2 story threads overlap and develop. I thought the use of the Voodoo Boys as a menacing unseen force was fantastic, for example, but the manner of their despatch so perfunctory as to be almost insulting. The balance between the different strands of Act 2 didn't feel quite right to pull the main relic story along.
I agree. Jackie pretty much has received the unfortunate role and fate of "the first man to die".
He's the character that introduces you to the world and some of the main people and the role of their type of which you will encounter more of later on. He introduces you to a ripperdoc, he introduces you to the having and driving of a car, he introduces you to combat and sneakyness and lastly he is the commen thread that does the initial build of the narrative. But that also means his 'usage' becomes irrelevant from the point where it's gonna be about you. The only thing that could fix that, is if they were actual companions that you could bring along like Fallout or Outer Worlds. They would however be transformed from a character into more of a secondary weapon (which can both help or screw things up)
I personally also have no issues with jackie clearing the field after his times was up. He got a cliché send-off, but it was still a worthy one inside the boundaries of the story. And the entire offrenda is the first time I have ever seen a funeral rite being done for an NPC, so for me, he gets the proper goodbyes to make you feel it has some significance. Its up to the player to judge wether they did experience it as such or not
I agree they could solve it in this way. But I think the main reason they added the clock is because they wanted to create the tension, desperation, and make the player face death (regular game death creates no tension because we can reload saves, etc)
the primary premise of the game is what would you do when death comes knocking. The problem is that most player's answer is nothing except things people tell me might make me survive. Also players think like players, and look for objectives, and signs on the proper way to win the game. They are also used to npcs telling universal truths, not opinions or perspectives.
However, I think the message/intent and drama is worth it. Going to see Judy while takamura is calling you adds weight and purpose to those meetings. Jumping in the water while you could get a relic malfunction shows trust, and a willingness to risk for this person. Likewise your own death looming may give an added dimension to helping a random civilian. V says, in one of the iterations of the mikoshi ending, that they just want to live and enjoy every moment they have. Thats a possible response the narrative is trying to create for V.
That said, its not the only way a V can take it, and for some people the devil ending is the only way things can be. Trapped railroaded, a feeling of no options, bitter and cursing the world. The player brings a lot to this game. Thats its genius imo.
I'm just saying that IF the clock is a bother to a specific player, that woud've been my idea to try and solve in within the regions the game currently seems to have. Its not perfect, but alas.
That being said, I don't have much issues with it myself.
First playthrough I fell for the trap, causing me to play like 50 hours and having seen only 10% of the game. The story I created for that first character however was a journey by itself. Now I'm treating it slightly different in that I'm doing things much more torough and I create my own little stories based on what and how I decide to do a certain gig, mission or just roaming the field. I have less effect of the clock that way anyhow and I find my enjoyment out of those little stories I create for myself in between the actual story the game is telling.
"The player brings a lot to this game. Thats its genius imo."
Like I just described so couldn't agree more!
pg doesnt mean you do whatever you want. No videogame rpg has lived up to that concept. I get you would prefer different choices were made, but at the end of the day, people creating something must make choices, there's no point in consuming art expecting that it will get it right for you specifically, all the time.
Its not mechanically wrong to connect the stories instead of separate them, there are pluses and minuses to either choice.
I guess is not easy to make everybody completely happy. I like the paths and the story at all, I don't like the behavior of my V at the Sun ending. I would like better romance options while some people say that the game is not a dating SIM. Some people want more Jackie, some people want more Evelyn, some people would like to shut down Johnny from the beginning. For CDPR this will be a process of learning what they could do better while staying true to their principles and make more players satisfied.
For me, the game is RPG and not because it has this tag on Steam or GOG, but because I feel it like RPG.
Both of you are completely missing the point. You are saying as if I'm requesting something completely new to be implemented, whereas what I'm saying is to not force people to do some quest if they are not necessary for specific ending. If anything this is the simplest solution to make everyone happy - you want to do all content on one playtrough, then you still can go both Evelyn and Takemura ways. You want to roleplay and choose only one - you can, but you will be blocking yourself from some endings. It's a win-win for everybody, but you are saying as if I would like to take something from someone, which is complete BS.
Its funny how people ignore this:
Its clearly on the official Cyberpunk 2077 site which is made by CDPR: "Cyberpunk 2077 is an open-world, action-adventure story set in Night City,"
Not open world RPG but "action-adventure".
The game is akin to Assassins Creed Origins action-adventure with light RPG elements.
Its funny how people ignore this:
Its clearly on the official Cyberpunk 2077 site which is made by CDPR: "Cyberpunk 2077 is an open-world, action-adventure story set in Night City,"
Action-Adventure and Action-RPG are almost interchangeable, if you have some form of character progression.
CP2077 is more of an RPG than Witcher, e g.
In the Witcher you can only play as what would translate in DnD-Terms to an elven-orc (heightened senses, improved and toughened body), background raised in a monastery, with fighter/wizard maybe Eldritch knight multiclass.
No possibility to deviate from this template.
In CP2077 you have the choice to start as an urchin, spy, nomad confers to some kind of tinkerer or veteran and are absolutely not restricted "class" wise. You can be everything from wizard to meatshield.*
One could argue that different load outs in cyberware are akin to different races in DnD, ArmouredSkin/Berserk --> Orc, Kerenzikov/Deck --> elven, and so on.
Everytime I read about the Witcher it is labelled as an RPG though.
A story with (meaningful) choices does not define an RPG, story and choices can be part of a platformer or shooter too.
*Edit: The problem in CP2077 is that gameplay mechanics are terribly lacking or broken. So they decided to paint over with the label action adventure.
But everybody can see through the wet paint that for about 7,5 years it was labelled as an RPG below.
Rather than ignore it, I would just say "I don't care".
As I already said before on this subject (RPG or not), when we can see Terraria (or Yakuza LAD) as RPG on Xbox Store, practically all the games could be RPG...
No matter what category people choose to put it in, that won't change my opinion on the game
