[Spoiler Alert] About the endings

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Do you want more RPGs with happy endings?


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I agree that the game could be about how you choose to live, but in what way is the sun epilogue further representing this, or the natural extension of that narrative? I also agree that it could be that V becomes a legend without intending to, but thats not really the crux of the problem.

lets say the game ends with the choice of well or bridge in mikoshi, maybe a short scene with V/Johnny getting up. Helped up by Panam, or getting up on their own, or going under the knife with arasaka. Would the game/story be any worse?

maybe the devil ending needs the epilogue narratively, but the others?

that's the thing, doesn't seem like the epilogue adds anything to those stories, or enhances the game.

which might be fine, epilogues are often about another story, or wrapping up threads outside the main conflict, or a final statement but here, they don't seem to be making players more engaged in another story, they definitely aren't wrapping up much, generally leaving questions, and only the devil ending makes a statement the narrative didnt already achieve before that.
Well as I've said my two canon endings are suicide and secret plus giving the body to Johnny. Those are the endings I think deliver on the game's thesis. But the one that stands out as *betraying* what the game is trying to do, to me, is the Nomad ending.

Regarding the sun, the point to me is that V had rather try and die than sit back doing nothing at all.

Ultimately the first two (and to a lesser extent the Sun ending) deliver a message to me of what is the point of existence and what does it mean to have a soul: to be true to yourself and to understand and appreciate the fundamentally transient gift of existence. The others, to greater or lesser degrees, do not.

(Sorry for multiple edits a bad habit of mine!)
 
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lets say the game ends with the choice of well or bridge in mikoshi, maybe a short scene with V/Johnny getting up. Helped up by Panam, or getting up on their own, or going under the knife with arasaka. Would the game/story be any worse?

maybe the devil ending needs the epilogue narratively, but the others?

that's the thing, doesn't seem like the epilogue adds anything to those stories, or enhances the game.
Something is missing in almost all endings, I think :)
Time missing before release ?
Intentional cut (for DLC) ?
It reminds me a little of the end of a season of a TV series, you're still hungry and you just want to see the next season... maybe intentional ?
 
If I understand this point (I could be wrong), in the Clouds if your V choose it obviously :)
"No, I haven't given up on my dreams, I still want to become a legend"
Same like before "The Heist".
"Dex, I want to be the one, whatever the price"
(only Street Kid path) "This is our chance Jackie, Dex needs us. We will use him to reach the major leagues"
If your V want to become a legend despite all the story events, the Sun ending make sense (naively maybe, I don't know).


The positive and "happy" point for me, it's the johnny's words in The columbarium.
"Thanks V for... crap... for all in fact. I will never forget what you did for me... How could I ? I walk around with your damn face... But I can't keep this..."

But as I said before, it would surely be better perceived, if you have a different way to choose the end (without changind anything to the endings).
On the roof :
- Method to reach Mikoshi (Johnny/Rogue, Aldecaldos/Panam).
- Help Arasaka.
- Bullet in the Head.
After become to Mikoshi as V :
- Leave Night City with Aldecaldos with Panam (maybe with Judy).
- Try to become a legend.
- Stay in Night City as a simple merc.

legend is mentioned again in clouds, but that has no real tie in to getting the sun ending, and its also generally pretty early on in the narrative. Not only that but you don't even have to choose that.

Nomads is tied to the content you do to unlock the ending, is highlighted during the post point of no return content
Arasaka is reinforced with hanako conversations, takemura's perspective, and developed post point of no return

the sun ending makes sense if you kept the legend focus, but content and overall gameplay in chapter 2-3 lean away from that focus.

regardless, watch some people play, and see how they feel about the game before and after the endings, it usually goes poorly, And like I said its not even about happy or sadness, Many works of fiction have the antagonist die, or struggle at the end, or not achieve everything, but so many people don't come away rejecting the whole experience. So I think they missed the mark.

would you say personally, the epilogues after mikoshi improved the game for you?
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Something is missing in almost all endings, I think :)
Time missing before release ?
Intentional cut (for DLC) ?
It reminds me a little of the end of a season of a TV series, you're still hungry and you just want to see the next season... maybe intentional ?
yeah, but I think like 25% of people reach the ending and don't want the next season, unless they feel its going to be different. I'd say of those 25% maybe half still like the game, but they also aren't thirsty for more. (random numbers based on no data, just my feeling from feedback I ve seen)
 
Personally, I'm a big believer in satisfying *narrative* rather than investing in specific characters' outcomes, and I think CDP put an insane amount of work in the game into trying to make sure the game's philosophies were clearly articulated and lined up (e.g. the jaw-dropping amount of exploration on the nature of the soul, consciousness, the transient nature of corporeal life).
Alt ominously stating that "everything changes" after a lengthy discussion on how she might be able to "save" you with Soulkiller, only for the game to Chekhov's Gun that entire conversation is hardly part of a satisfying narrative and not exactly what I would call a "jaw dropping" exploration of consciousness.
I want characters to be true *to themselves and what the story has been trying to say*.
The problem is this is ostensibly an RPG, and none of the endings let *my V* stay true to the character that the game let me, in a sense, "create" over the course of the game.
But then, my two favourite endings for delivering a satisfying narrative resolution were actually suicide and secret + giving Johnny the body. They felt right in terms of giving the characters agency, consciousness and character evolution. They're the endings in which the characters take on board the game's themes and shoot them through the hoop.
Johnny getting to live an entire second life despite who he was is a contradiction of the game's themes.
 
would you say personally, the epilogues after mikoshi improved the game for you?
Improved, I don't said that :)
But, for me, so damn good (emotionally speaking)
Johnny in the columbarium, Judy at the Nomad's end or even in Arasaka space station when you look the earth, many many really good moments.
Just thinking about it I get chills :sad:

regardless, watch some people play, and see how they feel about the game before and after the endings, it usually goes poorly,
For said the truth, I don't care of that too much for their impression for a story or narration... I watch stream/videos for gameplay. Like for movies, I have many example of a movies I absolutely love where the majority of people find them "really bad"
Because I'm unic person with unic tastes... Nope, I'm joking... but it's a little bit true :)
 
I agree that the game could be about how you choose to live, but in what way is the sun epilogue further representing this, or the natural extension of that narrative? I also agree that it could be that V becomes a legend without intending to, but thats not really the crux of the problem.

lets say the game ends with the choice of well or bridge in mikoshi, maybe a short scene with V/Johnny getting up. Helped up by Panam, or getting up on their own, or going under the knife with arasaka. Would the game/story be any worse?

maybe the devil ending needs the epilogue narratively, but the others?

that's the thing, doesn't seem like the epilogue adds anything to those stories, or enhances the game.

which might be fine, epilogues are often about another story, or wrapping up threads outside the main conflict, or a final statement but here, they don't seem to be making players more engaged in another story, they definitely aren't wrapping up much, generally leaving questions, and only the devil ending makes a statement the narrative didnt already achieve before that.
PS I read the game as an abnormally thoughtful work (for a game) that is closer to a novel in its ambitions than a summer blockbuster movie. It constantly juxtaposes issues of fatalism -- that destiny is preordained -- against the questions of freedom of action and thought. If our worlds are predetermined, if we cannot effect change, how nonetheless can our consciousnesses be free, and what do we need to do to assert that. It's saying "if your life is a pointless rat race where you eat, f***, shop and die, what exactly IS it that means you have a soul". It is challenging the way we look at purpose and what a "happy ending" really is.

Granted, some of this may have ended up coming together in the game by accident. But a lot of it seems to be there by design. And if it IS an accident, it's a magnificent one.
 

Guest 4519094

Guest
definitly yes,
love how polarized opinions are on the issue of endings, almost like it's treating a modern and very relevant set of topics about people's dreams and aspirations and who should or shouldn't be allowed to achieve those. Almost like the entire field of human culture is shifting into something more binary because it's more profitable ....
quick aside on the topic of streamers enjoying the game, you have to remember that they play it for about 50 hours and read chat as soon as a dialogue starts so they can catch up, so 50h of toxic chat insulting them for playing the game and when it finally ends all they're thinking about is "how the hell do i get rid of all those horrible people" ... 90% of the time they trash the game to no end praying the trolls are appeased and any fan of the game left,
imagine if Ciri Empress ending attracted that much ire, or no, even better, Ciri getting her witcher sword ending being treated like some here are treating the nomad ending, would that feel right/good ?
 
definitly yes,
love how polarized opinions are on the issue of endings, almost like it's treating a modern and very relevant set of topics about people's dreams and aspirations and who should or shouldn't be allowed to achieve those. Almost like the entire field of human culture is shifting into something more binary because it's more profitable ....
quick aside on the topic of streamers enjoying the game, you have to remember that they play it for about 50 hours and read chat as soon as a dialogue starts so they can catch up, so 50h of toxic chat insulting them for playing the game and when it finally ends all they're thinking about is "how the hell do i get rid of all those horrible people" ... 90% of the time they trash the game to no end praying the trolls are appeased and any fan of the game left,
imagine if Ciri Empress ending attracted that much ire, or no, even better, Ciri getting her witcher sword ending being treated like some here are treating the nomad ending, would that feel right/good ?
I'm an explorer in games and I played CP that way, which maybe allowed for a lot more narrative immersion. But I think it was the meditation quests that really got me to thinking: "Hold on, what is that even doing in this game? They're really trying to say something here, first with the tarot and now with *this*, and I really don't think it's 'corpos are bad' or anything that basic."

PS Takemura's cat is another prominent example.
 
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The problem is this is ostensibly an RPG, and none of the endings let *my V* stay true to the character that the game let me, in a sense, "create" over the course of the game.
Yeah exactly this. They made and marketed a game on the basis of choice. Instead what we've got is something which at the end allows little ability to stay true to the character we have played for 100 plus hours. That's completely unsatisfying imo.
 
PS I read the game as an abnormally thoughtful work (for a game) that is closer to a novel in its ambitions than a summer blockbuster movie. It constantly juxtaposes issues of fatalism -- that destiny is preordained -- against the questions of freedom of action and thought. If our worlds are predetermined, if we cannot effect change, how nonetheless can our consciousnesses be free, and what do we need to do to assert that. It's saying "if your life is a pointless rat race where you eat, f***, shop and die, what exactly IS it that means you have a soul". It is challenging the way we look at purpose and what a "happy ending" really is.

Granted, some of this may have ended up coming together in the game by accident. But a lot of it seems to be there by design. And if it IS an accident, it's a magnificent one.

I don't doubt the game is good, and there were many successes in what the devs/writers were trying to achieve, there was a lot of depth in the game. However I can't ignore that the endings alienated many people, and I'm not sure they added much in exchange. The arasaka ending works for its themes, but its not supposed to be what most people get out of the game. The Johnny ending is a decent epilogue

The best part of the game is everything except the final scenes, but a significant portion disengage after that, so they never experience the rest, or have the desire to look deeper into what the game has to say.
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definitly yes,
love how polarized opinions are on the issue of endings, almost like it's treating a modern and very relevant set of topics about people's dreams and aspirations and who should or shouldn't be allowed to achieve those. Almost like the entire field of human culture is shifting into something more binary because it's more profitable ....
quick aside on the topic of streamers enjoying the game, you have to remember that they play it for about 50 hours and read chat as soon as a dialogue starts so they can catch up, so 50h of toxic chat insulting them for playing the game and when it finally ends all they're thinking about is "how the hell do i get rid of all those horrible people" ... 90% of the time they trash the game to no end praying the trolls are appeased and any fan of the game left,
imagine if Ciri Empress ending attracted that much ire, or no, even better, Ciri getting her witcher sword ending being treated like some here are treating the nomad ending, would that feel right/good ?

the one I saw, the chat wasn't toxic, some were clearly fans, or interested in seeing the streamer play more, but the streamer felt the game overall didnt have enough high points to make you feel the bad, and while there were probably some quests that might provide that break, they weren't going to seek out more gameplay. They said they might watch some other endings, but had no desire to play them out. and in this game its easy to play a different ending. Also, since the game is good at letting the player choose how they see the focus of the game, it was weird to them that the natural result of the johnny/v friendship (us against the world)is V dying, Johnny and rogue dead, V lonely, and the world unchanged and V seemingly rudderless. They weren't interested in a better ending with nomads, they didnt particularly connect with them. I couldn't say, hey if you play longer and build up your char more, you can at least save rogue, because they clearly lost interest. Even though right before, they were entertained, and they appeared to enjoy the characters.

As a person who likes the game, thats not a great result. And I'm sure as a writer/dev that would be a similarly unsatisfying feedback.
 
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I don't doubt the game is good, and there were many successes in what the devs/writers were trying to achieve, there was a lot of depth in the game. However I can't ignore that the endings alienated many people, and I'm not sure they added much in exchange. The arasaka ending works for its themes, but its not supposed to be what most people get out of the game. The Johnny ending is a decent epilogue

The best part of the game is everything except the final scenes, but a significant portion disengage after that, so they never experience the rest, or have the desire to look deeper into what the game has to say.
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the one I saw, the chat wasn't toxic, some were clearly fans, or interested in seeing the streamer play more, but the streamer felt the game overall didnt have enough high points to make you feel the bad, and while there were probably some quests that might provide that break, they weren't going to seek out more gameplay. They said they might watch some other endings, but had no desire to play them out. and in this game its easy to play a different ending. Also, since the game is good at letting the player choose how they see the focus of the game, it was weird to them that the natural result of the johnny/v friendship (us against the world)is V dying, Johnny and rogue dead, V lonely, and the world unchanged and V seemingly rudderless. They weren't interested in a better ending with nomads, they didnt particularly connect with them. I couldn't say, hey if you play longer and build up your char more, you can at least save rogue, because they clearly lost interest. Even though right before, they were entertained, and they appeared to enjoy the characters.

As a person who likes the game, thats not a great result. And I'm sure as a writer/dev that would be a similarly unsatisfying feedback.
I think my biggest problem with Cyberpunk has been, from the get go, that if you take the game at face value you do not see the extent of what the developers created. It's maddening.

The main quest tells you to go fast and content that really is part of it has been parcelled up as side quests. The fast travel points and the prepopulated quests and gigs on the map tell you never to explore.

It means you can miss not only the primary side content but all the lore and detailing in the world that contributes to the game's narrative themes.

I'm not surprised the endings go awry for a lot of people because the way the game is offered up immediately handicaps the narrative that it tries to deliver. I wish it didn't, but I'm never going to think people who find the game shallow and inconsequential stupid for doing so: that is the experience it offers up by default, and how people feel about the endings is going to be affected directly by that.

I was level 50 when I got to the end. I've seen people on steam who got there at the low 20s.
 
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Guest 4519094

Guest
I don't doubt the game is good, and there were many successes in what the devs/writers were trying to achieve, there was a lot of depth in the game. However I can't ignore that the endings alienated many people, and I'm not sure they added much in exchange. The arasaka ending works for its themes, but its not supposed to be what most people get out of the game. The Johnny ending is a decent epilogue

The best part of the game is everything except the final scenes, but a significant portion disengage after that, so they never experience the rest, or have the desire to look deeper into what the game has to say.
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the one I saw, the chat wasn't toxic, some were clearly fans, or interested in seeing the streamer play more, but the streamer felt the game overall didnt have enough high points to make you feel the bad, and while there were probably some quests that might provide that break, they weren't going to seek out more gameplay. They said they might watch some other endings, but had no desire to play them out. and in this game its easy to play a different ending. Also, since the game is good at letting the player choose how they see the focus of the game, it was weird to them that the natural result of the johnny/v friendship (us against the world)is V dying, Johnny and rogue dead, V lonely, and the world unchanged and V seemingly rudderless. They weren't interested in a better ending with nomads, they didnt particularly connect with them. I couldn't say, hey if you play longer and build up your char more, you can at least save rogue, because they clearly lost interest. Even though right before, they were entertained, and they appeared to enjoy the characters.

As a person who likes the game, thats not a great result. And I'm sure as a writer/dev that would be a similarly unsatisfying feedback.
holy cow seen a small streamer enjoy the game for 50h straight even taking it on himself to tell the random trolls to chill and enjoy the good vibes, did the whole nine yard, chose only the arasaka ending because he feared getting his girlfriend (panam) and her family killed, went through the entire arasaka ending enjoying every minute of the nightmare but with a strong bitter after taste ...

He then clicked on the "one more gig" button saw the "we've gifted you stuff" panel, went to check what was the gift (arasaka ending no gift, more bitter) , then as you described above in your experience started saying that the game was awesome but the ending that he chose for his character fit quite well his personal story but didn't give him any will what so ever to replay the game at all ...

you can imagine the chat reaction at that point, so he jumped on jackie's bike and started riding while engaging the positive and negative people in chat, and while he was riding and talking to people
..... *drum roll*
Rogue called, told him she found ebunike and finally gonna get smasher, the reaction was "hehe i know we won't kill smasher Rogue" so he did the mission real quick and enjoyed it, immediatly went to johnny's grave with his porsche still enjoying the game and engaging chat.

After the graveyard scene he went, "you know what chat, i'm glad i did all that, we finally are getting some quality time with jonny, i'm curious now to see what's behind that part of the game we might come back and do that after all, drop everything i said about the endings ealier"

felt pretty nice :D

TL;DR: insane stroke of luck saved a playthrough from being yet another bitter ending to something really really awesome (given the streamer actually did put the work to enjoy the game and his time playing and streaming it)
 

Guest 4412420

Guest
I don't think that people who feel dissatisfied with the endings feel that way because they rushed through the game or didn't pay enough attention to the themes side content explores, it does apply to some sure, but I finished every single side quest in the game, didn't skip dialogue, read datashards, etc. It wasn't lack of engagement that soured my experience with the endings.

Some of us feel this way because the endings aren't equally balanced, some take player's agency away by railroading V into pursuing goals they had options to reject, they're different levels of vague which can feel frustrating, the timeline is inconsistent and you can get V who either feels consistent and in understandable state of mind (the Devil) or pretty much divorced from the type of V you played as throughout the game (the Sun and to a lesser degree the Star).
 
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It wasn't lack of engagement that soured my experience with the endings.
Same. My first and only playthrough was excessively long and I read every shard I got my grubby little mercenary hands on. Through bugs and random instant kills and cars falling from the sky, I was pretty content until what you describe in your next paragraphs.
Some of us feel this way because the endings aren't equally balanced, some take player's agency away by railroading V into pursuing goals they had options to reject, they're different levels of vague which can feel frustrating, the timeline is inconsistent and you can get V who either feels consistent and in understandable state of mind (the Devil) or pretty much divorced from the type of V you played as throughout the game (the Sun and to a lesser degree the Star).
^All of that. I felt like I did something wrong when I got my first ending (Star, romanced River.) I didn't want to leave Night City, had never implied that was the end goal, and thought I had built up a pretty good friendship with Misty, Vik, Joss, and obviously River, but V was waxing poetic about the hellhole she couldn't wait to leave behind and then I got dumped out of nowhere. There was nothing implying that calling Panam to cash in a favor meant you were committing to anything other than a heist, but off we went. Until that point I had been able to play a V that was an ex-Nomad that got burnt out on the Nomad life and was looking for that sense of belonging elsewhere and one phone call wiped it all out. Sun was somehow even worse and Devil is just a half hour of forced suffering for being a bad person.

It was just a perfect storm that left me with absolutely zero desire to revisit the game I had previously been enjoying quite a bit and wary of any future expansions. It already sucked feeling like playing a straight female V was a "wrong" choice, but knowing the endings also had an implied right/wrong way to play was just another gut shot.
 
TL;DR: insane stroke of luck saved a playthrough from being yet another bitter ending to something really really awesome (given the streamer actually did put the work to enjoy the game and his time playing and streaming it)
I find that story interesting because for my main run through the game I ended up with the Sun ending. When making the decision to take Johnny and Rogue along my immediate thought was I hope this isn't supposed to mean I'm chasing fame and glory. Then I thought they wouldn't dare tie a decision on which people you bring into the lions den to the game themes like that.

My headcanon was Rogue and Johnny had hit up Arasaka before and would be the best option to bring to help solve the Relic problem. Solving the relic issue was my immediate concern. I was hoping I could make a commitment one way or another on the other stuff later down the line. After the dust settled. I put those decisions on temporary hold.

So then the end comes up and you realize, yep, they did tie that decision to the game themes like that. If you don't make that decision based on this you won't get the results you were anticipating.

There is some ambiguity there too. You might think it's possible it plays out that way but cannot know with absolute certainty when making the choice. It's not as if events out of the control of your character occur to make it so. Why V went with the option they did, what they viewed as most important, what they were hoping to accomplish, etc. were all things the character still had ownership over. Alas, at the last minute the game steals that ownership for itself.

It didn't sit well. It's cool people can conveniently redo that part to get what they were looking for with their character. They shouldn't have to do so.
 
Saka ending is like that ending in Blood and Wine where you don't pay attention to other character's motivations make a few bad dialogue decisions and bad things happen, makes for hell of a tragedy .
Giving Johnny body is really the bittersweet ending here kinda like Empress in W3 - very emotional for people into Silverhand/KR if that's their thing (sweet Ciri still better of course) - or you can just do it out of spite like V had enough of Johnny and everything and says like go deal with this shi in the real world now and I'm out of here to cyber existenz). You can look at it hopeful (liking Johnny and thinking he has learned something good from you, or as I said above you can give him body out of spite and blink out into cyber existenz)
I think those two ending above - Devil and Temperance are the best "written" ones but boy are they very grey and uninspiring for V if you consider your V the super merc hero of NC.
Star is well a bit cop-outish I have to say. But maybe in an impossible situation the best choice is to leave? But that is also unsatisfying. Nice set pieces in the final battle sequences there at least until the dust settles.
Sun, especially Sun after Don't Fear reaper is like the cool ending - kind like Ciri Witchress in W3. Becoming a legend - not caring if you die at any time to some monster contract or some impossible gig - so the 6 months to live bit does not really matter.
 
I find that story interesting because for my main run through the game I ended up with the Sun ending. When making the decision to take Johnny and Rogue along my immediate thought was I hope this isn't supposed to mean I'm chasing fame and glory. Then I thought they wouldn't dare tie a decision on which people you bring into the lions den to the game themes like that.

My headcanon was Rogue and Johnny had hit up Arasaka before and would be the best option to bring to help solve the Relic problem. Solving the relic issue was my immediate concern. I was hoping I could make a commitment one way or another on the other stuff later down the line. After the dust settled. I put those decisions on temporary hold.

So then the end comes up and you realize, yep, they did tie that decision to the game themes like that. If you don't make that decision based on this you won't get the results you were anticipating.

There is some ambiguity there too. You might think it's possible it plays out that way but cannot know with absolute certainty when making the choice. It's not as if events out of the control of your character occur to make it so. Why V went with the option they did, what they viewed as most important, what they were hoping to accomplish, etc. were all things the character still had ownership over. Alas, at the last minute the game steals that ownership for itself.

It didn't sit well. It's cool people can conveniently redo that part to get what they were looking for with their character. They shouldn't have to do so.

Yeah i never countenanced that a company that made the witcher series would boil choice down to just how to you want to approach one mission.

Many can't get what they were looking for with their character because the endings are so very tightly and unnecessarily rigid. So the even the possibility of stepping out of character and re-doing isn't an option.
 
Saka ending is like that ending in Blood and Wine where you don't pay attention to other character's motivations make a few bad dialogue decisions and bad things happen, makes for hell of a tragedy .
Giving Johnny body is really the bittersweet ending here kinda like Empress in W3 - very emotional for people into Silverhand/KR if that's their thing (sweet Ciri still better of course) - or you can just do it out of spite like V had enough of Johnny and everything and says like go deal with this shi in the real world now and I'm out of here to cyber existenz). You can look at it hopeful (liking Johnny and thinking he has learned something good from you, or as I said above you can give him body out of spite and blink out into cyber existenz)
I think those two ending above - Devil and Temperance are the best "written" ones but boy are they very grey and uninspiring for V if you consider your V the super merc hero of NC.
Star is well a bit cop-outish I have to say. But maybe in an impossible situation the best choice is to leave? But that is also unsatisfying. Nice set pieces in the final battle sequences there at least until the dust settles.
Sun, especially Sun after Don't Fear reaper is like the cool ending - kind like Ciri Witchress in W3. Becoming a legend - not caring if you die at any time to some monster contract or some impossible gig - so the 6 months to live bit does not really matter.
Although I am a big fan of the Star ending. I will agree that it is a bit of a cop-out, especially in regards to who dies. In my opinion, you are not allowed to spend enough time with the nomads in general during the game, for there deaths to have any effect on the player. Teddy and Bobby (two of the three who die) you barely speak to at any length, especially Teddy. In fact the only time you speak to Teddy properly is in the star ending itself.
Saul also, although you speak to him more than the other two, doesn't really have any moment where you would come to care about him. if your friends with Panam, or romancing her, you are set up to not like him. In my first playthrough I did the star ending and when Smasher killed Saul I only felt bad due to Panams reaction to him dying not because I liked him as a person.
The only two that would of been a gut punch if they died would be Panam and Mitch. These two get characterized the most and you spend the majority of your time with them. This does lead me to believe that these two are going to be involved in a DLC/expansion down the line, as It's a strange choice to have Rogue die in the Sun ending but not have Panam die in the Star.

P.S I am a massive Panam fan, so before her fans get the wrong impression, I'm not advocating for her getting killed. I just find that narrative choice a hint as to her being involved in extra content.
 
Although I am a big fan of the Star ending. I will agree that it is a bit of a cop-out, especially in regards to who dies. In my opinion, you are not allowed to spend enough time with the nomads in general during the game, for there deaths to have any effect on the player. Teddy and Bobby (two of the three who die) you barely speak to at any length, especially Teddy. In fact the only time you speak to Teddy properly is in the star ending itself.
Saul also, although you speak to him more than the other two, doesn't really have any moment where you would come to care about him. if your friends with Panam, or romancing her, you are set up to not like him. In my first playthrough I did the star ending and when Smasher killed Saul I only felt bad due to Panams reaction to him dying not because I liked him as a person.
The only two that would of been a gut punch if they died would be Panam and Mitch. These two get characterized the most and you spend the majority of your time with them. This does lead me to believe that these two are going to be involved in a DLC/expansion down the line, as It's a strange choice to have Rogue die in the Sun ending but not have Panam die in the Star.

P.S I am a massive Panam fan, so before her fans get the wrong impression, I'm not advocating for her getting killed. I just find that narrative choice a hint as to her being involved in extra content.
Its Panam not dying what makes the "but Star ending if you romanced Panam then its unfair for the rest", I was expecting her to die frankly speaking.

But I can imagine a conversation like:

Game director :"So, you are going to kill Panam?"

Writer 1:"Yes, the player will achieve a phyrric victory and would pay a high price"

Game director opening a powerpoint "Let me tell you something about player demographics boy..."

So they end up killing Saul, because no other romance option has any involvement in any ending and killing all of them was a little bit of stretch (Vik and Mist cutting heads in a cutscene because they are Arasaka sleeping agents?). I know the combo Star+Judy, but I would guess that killing Panam in the process would have also kind of outweighted the "positivism" of that ending.

Killing Rogue in Sun, makes sense since it kinds of say to the player "see, you trusted Johnny...whoops".
 
Its Panam not dying what makes the "but Star ending if you romanced Panam then its unfair for the rest", I was expecting her to die frankly speaking.

But I can imagine a conversation like:

Game director :"So, you are going to kill Panam?"

Writer 1:"Yes, the player will achieve a phyrric victory and would pay a high price"

Game director opening a powerpoint "Let me tell you something about player demographics boy..."

So they end up killing Saul, because no other romance option has any involvement in any ending and killing all of them was a little bit of stretch (Vik and Mist cutting heads in a cutscene because they are Arasaka sleeping agents?). I know the combo Star+Judy, but I would guess that killing Panam in the process would have also kind of outweighted the "positivism" of that ending.

Killing Rogue in Sun, makes sense since it kinds of say to the player "see, you trusted Johnny...whoops".
When are people going to realise that the sleeper agent is Nibbles and that that is where the final DLC is taking us.

I mean, it's signposted *at every point* in the game and people continue to pretend it's not there.

Takemura has warned us. Alt has warned us. Misty has warned us. The tale of his arrival is made clear in plain English in a crashed van in the Badlands. And still we refuse to see.

Nibbles is the key.
 
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