No story

[Tir_Eoghan]

No story

This is a technique that has been done quite well in strategy games, and I think could translate well to an RPG game. The best example I can think of is, Crusader Kings 2.

Essentially while this is quite complex to implement and explain, it is essentially a fairly simple idea. Each job, title, or position in the game can become the ambition of another NPC character to acquire (through random generated ambitions). Every NPC, in the game has Ambitions, and traits (both positive and negative), and a full character sheet exactly like the player. The only difference is the player chooses their own ambitions, and figures out how to use the ambitions of the NPC's to achieve their ambitions.

I could go on for pages and pages explaining this, but the essentials are all there. Do you guys think this can work, any idea's on how to successfully implement this.

I'm so tired of quests and linear storylines (or even non-linear storylines), just build me a sandbox world I can go through and effect the world or not depending on my actions.

 

[chriswebb2020.736]

So, you want something like Mount & Blade then?

2077 is already a confirmed non-inear story driven RPG, so that ship sailed I'm afraid, muchacho.

 

[Tir_Eoghan]

gah, one can dream. Actually mount and blade had to many quests. I want a living world, where you interact with NPC's that have their own motives and ambitions. It worked well in Crusader Kings 2 (haven't played any of their other games). I think this could work well in an RPG as well, and might actually save scripting time. As you don't have to script every single encounter and NPC, you just have to build a database and then randomly generate characters and they go about their day. This is essentially how PnP games worked, when the DM roles on a random encounter table he is bringing in a pre-built opponent so he doesn't have to take the time to role up all their individual stats, it just can be more detailed in a computer game.

This doesn't necessarily mean you can't have a non-linear story in addition, it just means that every character you meet will be a fully fleshed out character and not just a set piece.

 

[chriswebb2020.736]

You didn't have to do the quests in Mount & Blade, you could just kill vikings and bandits, then form an army and start waging wars. NO quests necessary.

Realistically though, in this setting, I think you are asking for too much. I don't hink the coding is there, at this time, for a game that open.

Could you not make do with the fact that Red Engine has a modding tool, (RedKit,) which should mean you can do anything you like in the end?

 

[Tir_Eoghan]

yes, certainly modding could take care of this feature in the future. Redkit will be fantastic, and I'm excited to see what people do with it.

One of my favorite things about PnP sourcebooks was checking out all the random generation tables, and it occurs to me that with computers and no need for dice rolls this feature that has been around since PnP games were invented could really add to an RPG game world. Imagine the devs not having to place and script every single NPC to fill out their world, they just have to build a database whether simple or highly sophisticated and let the random generation fill up the empty spaces of their game world.

One of the beauties of a game like Crusader Kings is giving your vassals territory and watching them (based on their ambitions) go out and do things on their own. The only way I managed to make empire is that I made my vassals incredibly tough, and they captured most of my territory on their own. Then of course when they rebelled from me I was truly screwed.

The "No Story" title to this post, is mostly just to gain attention, as this feature could work just as well with a detailed story included as without.

We have Graphics Engines to take care of generating graphics so the devs don't have to worry about coding all that out each time they want to place content in their world, why not have a "story engine/conflict engine" so that the devs don't have to create all the conflict and story themselves.

I believe this method to be the future of computer RPG gaming, and I think this company is creative and agile enough to be the first RPG designers to include this and change the computer RPG game landscape forever.

 

[chriswebb2020.736]

Now personally, I would enjoy that level of openness in a video game. I loved M&B for that reason.

There are many, however, who would feel that this sort of content would be bland and lifeless, and I am inclided to agree when compared to the depth and creativity if a well written non-linear storyline.

 

[Tir_Eoghan]

true, randomly generated content alone in an RPG would probably feel a little bland, regardless of how well it's done. However, what is more bland then NPC's with no purpose other than background filler that you cant even interact with, as you can't flesh out every incidental character by hand even with the largest scripting team.

 

[Tir_Eoghan]

To be honest, I actually find most stories game companies come up with to be bland and highly predictable, without having a professional novelist behind a game there are severe limitations to how good a games story can be. Now with Mike Pondsmith behind this game, I expect the story they come up with to be superior to most games, really the only thing better would be to have William Gibson himself writing the story.

However, with a random element, the story lines can be varied and organic and close to a real world cyberpunk universe. Watching the battles between gang members deciding who will be the new gang leader, after you take out the leader incredibly interesting and something that likely wouldn't be put into the main storyline.

Frankly, I can't name a computer game that had a storyline that piqued my interest for more than a few days. One of the few games I actually played through the whole storyline was freelancer, and that story wouldn't even register on the charts as a decent pulp fiction sci fi. Now Crusader Kings 2 with it's random element has stories develop that I still talk about with my friends.

 

[Sardukhar]

Gibson's writing is....very gibsonesque and more suited to his novels and settings. Not always fun, either.

I would hope for Walter Jon Williams, if I had my druthers. Much more punch.

 

[Tir_Eoghan]

hmm.. don't know Walter Jon Williams I'll have to buy some of his books

 

[Sardukhar]

Hardwired should be your first. You can pick up the whole Hardwired trilogy for cheap in ebook format.

 

[Tir_Eoghan]

thanks for the recommendation, I'll boot my nook back to stock os and purchase that.

 

[JeromAsdert]

I love CK2 to death, it's probably the game that I've played the most in recent year. Oh the tales of rivalry, intrigue, backstabbing, succession crises wars and betrayal that I get to tell are at a times more convoluted than Song of Ice and fire to which my wife usually responds with a blank stare that has "what the hell you want from me?" feel to it.

With all of that out of the way, I think it would be very similar to Mount and Blade just in a different setting (cool in its own right, but not quite the same vibe as Cyberpunk). It works in strategy as you got zero interaction with NPCs which is quite bad for RPGs, the NPCs and world would one sided and empty, everything and everyone would be easily measured on like/dislike scale. There never will be interesting conversations or unique quests. You might get a cool action game with skills/leveling/gear system but not more than that.

 

[username_3641692]

So, you want something like Mount & Blade then?

2077 is already a confirmed non-inear story driven RPG, so that ship sailed I'm afraid, muchacho.

What he said.

 

[Tir_Eoghan]

I love CK2 to death, it's probably the game that I've played the most in recent year. Oh the tales of rivalry, intrigue, backstabbing, succession crises wars and betrayal that I get to tell are at a times more convoluted than Song of Ice and fire to which my wife usually responds with a blank stare that has "what the hell you want from me?" feel to it.

With all of that out of the way, I think it would be very similar to Mount and Blade just in a different setting (cool in its own right, but not quite the same vibe as Cyberpunk). It works in strategy as you got zero interaction with NPCs which is quite bad for RPGs, the NPCs and world would one sided and empty, everything and everyone would be easily measured on like/dislike scale. There never will be interesting conversations or unique quests. You might get a cool action game with skills/leveling/gear system but not more than that.

Sounds like you get the idea (yes the stories in CK2 can be better than what you can even get from a skilled writer like Martin), however I think you fail to see the potential of this system as related to RPG's. Mount and Blade, as much as I like the game, is not even close to as dynamic as I think this engine could be.

I think this is probably an idea I'll have to prove to the RPG community myself, I'll put together a team of modders and start adding a "Conflict Engine/Story Engine" to all these games. I suspect that this engine will become standard on RPG's in the future, it just needs to be initially proven. We have graphics engines, why not Story/Conflict engines.
I think the title of this thread is poorly chosen, as the idea is not to remove well written stories, but to allow for random stories to develop in addition to a well written main story. Instead of all the NPC's that are not related to the main story being just filler, they will actually become living breathing characters of their own.

 

[JeromAsdert]

Hell, I'd love to see it happen, all the power to new and innovative ideas. Best examples I can think are Stalker factions and living breathing world ,dynamic combat for ArmA, Mount and Blade, Sims and the explanation of how missions are going to work in Star Citizen, all of these are good games with lots of merits it just that they don't quite click as RPGs in my mind. I find it hard to imagine how something like that would even work outside of an MMO platform like DayZ perhaps.

 

[Tir_Eoghan]

Hell, I'd love to see it happen, all the power to new and innovative ideas. Best examples I can think are Stalker factions and living breathing world ,dynamic combat for ArmA, Mount and Blade, Sims and the explanation of how missions are going to work in Star Citizen, all of these are good games with lots of merits it just that they don't quite click as RPGs in my mind. I find it hard to imagine how something like that would even work outside of an MMO platform like DayZ perhaps.

Well hopefully I can prove the viability of this technique, I was hoping to convince a game dev company to try it (as I lack those kind of resources), yet I think it would be a fun enough addition that it's worth me sinking some considerable amount of time into.

how many times have we been disappointed by the limitations of games after running through the storyline. With the power of computers these days I don't think those storylines have to end, sure there wont be as creative and engrossing conversations with NPC's after the storyline, but I think you could create a pretty convincing world that keeps on living and breathing well after you've beaten the storyline.

It's simply a matter of how big a database your willing to build hehe