Please return NG main identity from opponent deck manipulation to classic board state control

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Do you want less clog and mill in the meta?

  • Yes

    Votes: 24 60.0%
  • No

    Votes: 16 40.0%

  • Total voters
    40

ya1

Forum regular
I talked privately to over a dozen people including some high ranked players. I took part in some Discord discussions. I watched some streamers and TLG guys talk about it. Conclusion: ALMOST NOBODY LIKES CLOG AND MILL.

Maybe devs are not getting this feedback but clog and mill seem to be some of the least popular archetypes. This is in terms of how people feel about them not how many people play them. Clog was hyper popular a few months ago because it was overpowered. It might still have been popular last two seasons because of some reasons but less. Now, after this expansion, it seems to be back together with mill because there simply isn't much else to play in NG.

I for one would like the main NG identity to come back to the classic control faction like it always was. Not the draw dependent and somewhat toxic opponent deck manipulation. It revolves around the idea of R1 draw as the main factor in winning or losing games. This idea is wrong in itself - or at least wrong in the extent it is supported by devs - and takes away player agency from the game.

This control identity was in decline since MM when NG mainstay golds got nerfed resulting in (I think) all time low in NG play and win rates. Then they buffed bronze engines and together with WotW location, NG became an pointslam/engine faction. They also buffed locks for everyone so NG lost that advantage, too. After some failed attempts at reviving soldier swarm, devs' seemed to have rolled the dice to making clog as the main NG thing. But apparently from what I can see - PEOPLE DON'T WANT IT AS THE MAIN NG THING. I'd like to see some discussion. Do you like clog and mill? Do you like to play it or to play against it? Thanks for all opinions.
 

Lexor

Forum veteran
First Lockdown, then Ball, now mill / clog. What's left?

Personally I want even more options in deck manipulation in terms of cards reveal and the manipulation NR has now.
How come NR is so much better in deck manipulation than NG while NG was advertised as such faction during PoP promotion?
 
Personally I want deck manipulation in terms of card reveals and the manipulation NR has now.
How come NR is so much better in deck manipulation than NG while NG was advertised as such faction during PoP promotion?
In what way NR has deck manipulation? NR is purely the engine faction. It has tons of cards with the order tag which makes them weak against any control deck and especially NG. Most of the unique card effects belong to NG. All the other factions, except from SY have mainly the boost and damage type of cards. That's why NG feels UNFAIR for me. It has super control AND pointslam.
 

Lexor

Forum veteran
In what way NR has deck manipulation?
 
Short answer? no. I for one definitely like the diverse options available for NG - one of the greatest appeals in my eyes for a faction.
You do not like clog or mill? Just stay away and don't play them. You won't see any of these nowadays seriously threatening top meta slots. The fact that these options are there just increases faction diversity and as such, should be a direction for other factions too.
 
I would like the clog/mill to be reworked. For me, it's like old Lockdown, lock your opp's ability to draw his cards.

Or at least they should move clog/mill to neutral bandits and give NG something more viable and stable.

The problem with clog/mill is once it gets strong, people start to complain more than usual, and then it gets nerfed. So clog/mill will never be strong and stable archetypes. And NG suffers from it more than anything.
 
While I really appreciate the NR rework i think Nilfgaard is in a lot more desperate need of a huge rework of Clog, Mill and High-Roll/Match-Up (like I already mentioned in several other Threads *) dependent Card's.

Clog is probably the one in the most desperate need of a rework because it really feels just plain bad playing against it with most Decks (you won't care much about Clog if you're playing a "No" Unit or strong SK bronze Warriors Deck), there simply is some stuff that doesn't need any additional support (especially not a entire expansion themed around) and should stay at the Meme Category, the thing that probably bothers me the most is that Clog and 2 other Match-Up dependent Card's (Anna, Cadaverine) have been added /reworked just recently which kind of brings me to the assumption that they are totally fine with turning NG into a just annoying to play against Meme faction which should stay as far away from top tier as possible.

While Nilfgaard always had some annoying Decks to play against the direction they went since MoO put the annoyance to a almost unbearable level compared to that playing against the most annoying Beta NG Decks like opponent Hand Reveal, Tempo Alchemie Witchers (probably the strongest NG Deck ever), Mill (because there was no hand-limit in beta it actually gave you the Card's in Hand instead of discarding them and thereby forced you to uncomfortable plays) or Letho shenanigans felt like the "most fun" I ever had.

Don't get me wrong this isn't meant as a NG hate post, because I'm totally fine if NG regularly offers a Top Tier Deck if stuff like Clog, Mill and High-Roll (especially stuff like Canta/VW Alchemist high rolling into you're win cons in turn 1) gets reworked or at least toned down.

*
Considering they're reasoning behind giving Renew and Hanmarvyn's Blue Dream a provision limit I wouldn't say so.

"Developer comment: Renew and Hanmarvyn's Blue Dream are very difficult cards to balance as the only way to do so was not making powerful gold units. We have introduced a provision cap for their effects so the cards themselves can become more predictable, which lets us interact more with their provision cost. The numbers might have to be tweaked again in the near future, but we believe this is a much healthier direction for those cards.

Because those "rules" (not being able to replay high tier Golds) don't apply to a huge amount of Nilfgaard Card's at all and it will get even more problematic when they add even stronger Gold cards in the upcoming expansions, to be honest if stuff that easily let's you (Re) play the opponents most powerful Cards doesn't get toned down it will become incredibly hard to give Nilfgaard a strong archetype or a buff to the currently under performing existing ones which don't mainly rely on those tools because you still need to take those tools in to account when balancing the rest of the Faction.
 
Both clog and mill provide essential balance to Gwent in that they counter extremism in deck building. If they appear binary / draw dependent, it is because the decks they counter are binary and draw dependent.

Mill is a counter to extremes in deck thinning, uninteractivity strategies, and excess tutoring — although admittedly a somewhat feeble one.

Clog is actually very well designed to counter extremes in deck polarization (the strategy of making almost all cards either extremely good [high provision] or extremely bad [low provision] with goal to increase average played card value by exploiting the mulligan system). If all cards in your deck have nearly equal value, clog doesn’t matter.

Now, that doesn’t mean all clog/mill cards are OK. I do not like any of the “remove or lose” cards of which Kolgrim is an example — but that’s not an indictment of the archetype as dozens of current cards have the same problem.
 

ya1

Forum regular
Short answer? no. I for one definitely like the diverse options available for NG - one of the greatest appeals in my eyes for a faction.
You do not like clog or mill? Just stay away and don't play them. You won't see any of these nowadays seriously threatening top meta slots. The fact that these options are there just increases faction diversity and as such, should be a direction for other factions too.

Thanks for your reply. May I point out, however, that you contradict yourself. You rush to voice disagreement, but then follow up with an argument in direct support of the appeal. The appeal was not to remove opponent deck manipulation from the game - and limit diversity. It was to convince devs that deck manipulation is not suitable as the only (or main) NG archetype they should support - and increase diversity.

And devs have been doing exactly that since WotW: supporting only clog (except a few insufficient buffs to soldiers and a few meme cards not fitting anywhere) and nerfing the everything else NG that was competitive. Every single NG card in this reveal is about hyperthin and nothing else (and the neutrals also happen to buff the hell out of mill). That's not good for diversity, is it?

Also, the non-Ciri hyperthin clog decks looks to me like low Tier 2 to me when optimized. I'm seeing it all the time, and mill. Depends on where the new NR archetype lands - as it completely smurfs clog with their topdecks. And if mill sticks (also kinda strong now with two extra mills and cheap bronze points) - as hyperthin vs. mill is 0% to win.

Both clog and mill provide essential balance to Gwent in that they counter extremism in deck building. If they appear binary / draw dependent, it is because the decks they counter are binary and draw dependent.

Nah. Every deck with X golds and Y bronzes is binary and draw dependent. And clog/mill doesn't care which deck it is as long as you miss your tutors, a good chunk of high provision cards as well as purify and tall removal in R1. Or in general just draw to lose R1. For most part, clog does not counter anything in particular. It only counters bad luck. Mill does counter discard and thinning but in general mill is all about abusing opponent's lack of talent in R1 and little else.

Clog and mill aren't even strong. Just don't pass R2 and you're good.

Nothing NG is good. But just because NG is back in meme tier doesn't change anything. What matters is that devs don't seem to look in any other direction for NG.

Another argument why NG should be getting control tools instead of thinning (which is clog support) is because of the amount of expensive new engines with sky-high ceiling, and not much in the meta to viably counter them. Even 4p engines drop at 6 these days and make 2 points a turn, if you know what I'm talking about.

If all cards in your deck have nearly equal value, clog doesn’t matter.

Sorry, what? Losing R1 and having to draw nothing but 3 power bodies from then on - it doesn't matter for which deck exactly?

Also, a deck where all cards have equal value is just a bad deck. Usually, you should have 16 target cards in a deck of Gwent. Others should be tutors, thinning or mulligan fodder. If you include more target cards than that, it's just a waste of provisions. Check this guy
 
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Sorry, what? Losing R1 and having to draw nothing but 3 power bodies from then on - it doesn't matter for which deck exactly?
Except for one instance of guardian and two of infiltrator, everything you are clogged with comes from cards you play. If you don’t want a pile of 3 strength bodies, don’t play low provision cards, 3 body cards just so you can have more OP 13 provision cards in your deck.
 

ya1

Forum regular
Except for one instance of guardian and two of infiltrator, everything you are clogged with comes from cards you play. If you don’t want a pile of 3 strength bodies, don’t play low provision cards, 3 body cards just so you can have more OP 13 provision cards in your deck.

Are you seriously trying to say that people should play decks like twenty 6p and six 7p cards?
 
Are you seriously trying to say that people should play decks like twenty 6p and six 7p cards?
Yes and no. Right now, I recognize that strategy would only really work against clog, but I definitely believe the game would be better if that were a viable strategy. As this requires a long (and rather off topic) analysis, I will present it in a different thread.
 
I personally enjoyed clog a lot when it was introduced 6 months ago. Then when it became High Tier 2 I lost interest. Now I'm back playing it mostly due to lack of options available: I'm super tired of playing ball decks and everything else offered by the faction is just a meme. Would I want to see clog erased? Absolutely not. As pointed out by messyr it increases options in the faction and that's always a good thing, because let's face it the problem here is lack of them. For comparison, Syndicate has moved away from its Passiflora-only status and now has Pirate Cove, Crimes and Firesworn as meta decks, with bounty possibly coming back. Meanwhile Nilfgaard is stuck on Ball- soldiers with plenty of powercrept cards screaming for help. So I tpeople are just making too much of a big deal of two not very strong archetypes, which currently represent the only viable alternatives to ball. Ultimately I hope both clog and mill will take a place as niche archetypes in the future, surpassed by more mainstream stuff.
 
I personally enjoyed clog a lot when it was introduced 6 months ago. Then when it became High Tier 2 I lost interest. Now I'm back playing it mostly due to lack of options available: I'm super tired of playing ball decks and everything else offered by the faction is just a meme. Would I want to see clog erased? Absolutely not. As pointed out by messyr it increases options in the faction and that's always a good thing, because let's face it the problem here is lack of them. For comparison, Syndicate has moved away from its Passiflora-only status and now has Pirate Cove, Crimes and Firesworn as meta decks, with bounty possibly coming back. Meanwhile Nilfgaard is stuck on Ball- soldiers with plenty of powercrept cards screaming for help. So I tpeople are just making too much of a big deal of two not very strong archetypes, which currently represent the only viable alternatives to ball. Ultimately I hope both clog and mill will take a place as niche archetypes in the future, surpassed by more mainstream stuff.
lets hope for an actually strong soldier archetype for imperial formation.
 

Guest 4375874

Guest
Clog and mill aren't even strong. Just don't pass R2 and you're good.
I think NG will get a more classic Gwent playstyle when they finally get to adding Soldier support.
I'm curious, against a clog deck how does "don't pass R2" help you? You'll be losing 0-2. Clog decks rarely if ever go to R3. Unless you drew a way to deal with Kolgrim in R1 then you will start R2 with tokens and bronze cards, you won't be getting anything else from your deck so this answer always feels shortsighted.
 

ya1

Forum regular
I personally enjoyed clog a lot when it was introduced 6 months ago. Then when it became High Tier 2 I lost interest. Now I'm back playing it mostly due to lack of options available: I'm super tired of playing ball decks and everything else offered by the faction is just a meme. Would I want to see clog erased? Absolutely not. As pointed out by messyr it increases options in the faction and that's always a good thing, because let's face it the problem here is lack of them. For comparison, Syndicate has moved away from its Passiflora-only status and now has Pirate Cove, Crimes and Firesworn as meta decks, with bounty possibly coming back. Meanwhile Nilfgaard is stuck on Ball- soldiers with plenty of powercrept cards screaming for help. So I tpeople are just making too much of a big deal of two not very strong archetypes, which currently represent the only viable alternatives to ball. Ultimately I hope both clog and mill will take a place as niche archetypes in the future, surpassed by more mainstream stuff.

That's exactly what I wanted to express: I hope both clog and mill will take a place as niche archetypes in the future, surpassed by more mainstream stuff. It's basically in the title.

Lol. 8 out of 23 people unironically want more clog in the meta. This doesn't happen anywhere else on the internet.
 
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I instant forfeit whenever I play against Clog and Mill. These decks are extremely toxic and game-breaking as it prevents you from playing the cards in your deck. I can see the fun a NG player has with them, when they queue up against non-NG player, but these decks are the main reason why I started taking a break from Gwent again, merely playing a few games on Thursday-Friday for the journey contracts, almost always in Draft or Seasonal. Not to mention that because the current meta is so greedy, NG control is becoming more and more a must. I don't like games that force me to play a certain faction to maximize chances of winning. Especially decks that ruin all the fun.
 
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