Please return NG main identity from opponent deck manipulation to classic board state control

[ya1]

But isn't building an effective deck part of the "skill" in CCGs in general?

No, because since the dawn of language and communication people share ideas. And in Gwent, people netdeck. And that includes the very best players in the game like the Masters finalists so - just in case - please hold on to your "netdecking is for losers" comments.

It's no more braindead than any other netdeck or OP combo (lippy, traps, SK warriors, viy, NR poop swarms, etc)

Not true. Example. In traps, you gotta know oppo's deck and use your traps and commit accordingly. Warriors got specific dmg amounts bound to specific cards and board states - that got to be reserved for specific threats, so you gotta know the lineups. Warriors also gotta know about round control because sometimes it's better to go for long round, actually. NR is simpler as engine overload but you gotta know oppo's control capacity to plan your engine deployment; and you gotta bait removal. All these decks, you gotta manage resources.

In clog, your one and only "skill" requirement is for the opponent not to draw for R1 and let you win it it not matter what (except committing Kolgrim.) And not to throw the game forgetting about adrenaline and stuff. Same as Lippy but double the frustration because clog also messes up your draw. No resource management, either. You just gotta win that R1, get good RNG points on Mentors and dodge removal for defender and Kolgrim. Clog doesn't even care if you bleed all wrong and lose a card. If Kolgrim sticks, it doesn't matter.

And it doesn't mean that anyone who beats you with a strategy you don't particularly like needs their cards nerfed or their intelligence insulted.

You seem to have misunderstood the sentiment. It's not a critique of the players. I think one of the highest NG MMRs ever done was on clog (by Myamon, iirc, and nobody is ever gonna call that guy braindead when it comes to Gwent). I played a fair share of clog, myself. I wouldn't be criticizing it if I didn't know it.

It's only a critique of devs' priorities. Yet again, devs are nerfing NG mainstream stuff (for NO REASON as NG was <50% winrate LAST SEASON - it even rhymes) and promoting some memes. Just let NG be NG. The control faction balanced to keep greed in check.

 

[quintivarium]

In clog, your one and only "skill" requirement is for the opponent not to draw for R1 and let you win it it not matter what (except committing Kolgrim.) And not to throw the game forgetting about adrenaline and stuff. Same as Lippy but double the frustration because clog also messes up your draw. No resource management, either. You just gotta win that R1, get good RNG points on Mentors and dodge removal for defender and Kolgrim. Clog doesn't even care if you bleed all wrong and lose a card. If Kolgrim sticks, it doesn't matter.

If you truly believe this you have given zero thought to the clog archetype. Undoubtedly there are matches — especially if you opponent plays poorly or has a weak deck, where clog wins without thought, but this is true of any decently designed decks. Making clog win in less than ideal circumstances is where skill matters. Let me give some examples where deep reasoning is needed:

1. Deciding what or if to clog if an opponent does not present you with obvious targets. When should you use coated weapon on a Temerian Drummer or Svalblod Priest? Does it ever make sense to viper witcher a gold card?

2. How do you design a deck with sufficient clogging to matter, payoff for clogging, and flexibility for when clogging doesn’t work?

3. How do you manage clogging in early round 1 when when coated weapons and Viper Witchers need targets, Viper Witchers need adrenaline, infiltrators are susceptible to removal, etc.?

4. How do you manage round 1 when you don’t draw clog?

5. How far do you push round 1 if it’s not going well? Or if it’s going very well but you could clog more? When is going down cards OK and when does going up cards count more than clogging?

6. How do you maximize odds of Kolgrim sticking? How do you give yourself win opportunities when Kolgrim won’t stick.

7. How do you sequence Kolgrim and two Viper Witcher Mentors when all need very low adrenaline?

If I, a relatively weak, inexperienced player, can see these strategic elementclog decks, why can’t you?

 

[Guest 4375874]

No, because since the dawn of language and communication people share ideas. And in Gwent, people netdeck. And that includes the very best players in the game like the Masters finalists so - just in case - please hold on to your "netdecking is for losers" comments.



Not true. Example. In traps, you gotta know oppo's deck and use your traps and commit accordingly. Warriors got specific dmg amounts bound to specific cards and board states - that got to be reserved for specific threats, so you gotta know the lineups. Warriors also gotta know about round control because sometimes it's better to go for long round, actually. NR is simpler as engine overload but you gotta know oppo's control capacity to plan your engine deployment; and you gotta bait removal. All these decks, you gotta manage resources.

In clog, your one and only "skill" requirement is for the opponent not to draw for R1 and let you win it it not matter what (except committing Kolgrim.) And not to throw the game forgetting about adrenaline and stuff. Same as Lippy but double the frustration because clog also messes up your draw. No resource management, either. You just gotta win that R1, get good RNG points on Mentors and dodge removal for defender and Kolgrim. Clog doesn't even care if you bleed all wrong and lose a card. If Kolgrim sticks, it doesn't matter.



You seem to have misunderstood the sentiment. It's not a critique of the players. I think one of the highest NG MMRs ever done was on clog (by Myamon, iirc, and nobody is ever gonna call that guy braindead when it comes to Gwent). I played a fair share of clog, myself. I wouldn't be criticizing it if I didn't know it.

It's only a critique of devs' priorities. Yet again, devs are nerfing NG mainstream stuff (for NO REASON as NG was <50% winrate LAST SEASON - it even rhymes) and promoting some memes. Just let NG be NG. The control faction balanced to keep greed in check.

I agree with you but I'm also criticizing the players lol The devs are where the responsibility ultimately ends but players aren't exempt. As a MO player, I avoid using Viy on principle because it isn't fair to my opponents. Clog players can claim all they want that they're just using what they were given but the community is what makes the game fun or toxic

 

[quintivarium]

I agree with you but I'm also criticizing the players lol The devs are where the responsibility ultimately ends but players aren't exempt. As a MO player, I avoid using Viy on principle because it isn't fair to my opponents. Clog players can claim all they want that they're just using what they were given but the community is what makes the game fun or toxic

The problem here is that not everyone agrees on “fair” or “fun”. Like you, I refuse to play certain cards I feel are bad for the game: given an option, I won’t even select them to own. For me, these include all scenarios, all echo cards, heatwave, oneiromancy, Cahir, Yennifer’s invocation, Philippa Eilhart, Eist, Viy, and (usually) Brouver and Gezras, and probably others. But I have no issues with clog.

 

[Damashiuchi]

I agree with you but I'm also criticizing the players lol The devs are where the responsibility ultimately ends but players aren't exempt. As a MO player, I avoid using Viy on principle because it isn't fair to my opponents. Clog players can claim all they want that they're just using what they were given but the community is what makes the game fun or toxic

Clog players absolutely can claim they are using what they are given because that's exactly what they are doing. They certainly didn't make the cards themselves. I also refuse to use certain cards that I don't like, hell I have never even played SY, ST, or MO decks (yes literally not even once) because they are annoying but I would never say with a straight face that there's factions should be removed from the game or reworked into something that I want them to be. They are part of the game. If clog was so bad, it would be the absolute top cream of the crop and everyone would use it because it could never lose. Obviously that's not the case. We're all free to play what and how we want and you can either change your strategy to combat that, or forfeit and play something else I guess. Again it doesn't make anyone who uses it against you instantly a brain dead meet decking noob because it beat your braindead net deck