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You should try out Fallout or Skyrim. Those are sandbox RPGs where you have complete control of the story. Cyberpunk is a narrative experience.
I just noticed this, had to reread it; In Fallout 4 you are Nora/Nate, parent of a kidnapped child. The character is not you, You can customize that character but its still the same parent who is looking for a stolen child. The only difference is that you can change the name aswell.
In Fallout you side with a faction and that faction rules the commonwealth(though minutemen will probably be canon if ever mentioned). In CP2077 you can attack Arasaka or go with their plan, the outcome of both differ for you and for Night City.

Even in Skyrim you get more options to decide who your character is, but you will always be the dragonborn who was destined to fight Alduin and Miraak. The story doesnt allow you to side with them. You can decide to destroy the brotherhood instead of joining them, just the same way you can decide to ignore Panam after the first mission with her, which will lead to her family being wiped out eventually(dont want to go into spoiler territory, if you played you know).

The similarities between the games are not a big as you think they are. It basicly means Cyberpunk 2077 is a 'sandbox rpg', like Skyrim and Fallout.
And I explained why that isn't the case.
And I explained why it isnt the case for you.
 
I really think of a Street Kid V something like The Prodigy singer, may he rest in peace, and so i did also to honour him, i was a huge fan of Keith.
He's got very loco hair and teeth and has lots of bling in his face.

In the other hand my corpo is more formal, has some cyberware in his face, has 3 days beard, short hair, normal teeth.

As for my nomad, has crappy teeth, dreads, and overall more rough look.

And i feel attached to the 3 of them because its how i felt they should be.

It doesn't matter if you want to play vanilla V or a custom, truth is that if we could see our V in a third person perspective, would be more appropriate to have way more customisations options and the ability to change them at any point we desire as long as we have the eddies.

I'm still in love with the game, so far its a grand adventure, has good graphics that require some improvements but everything will come with the time.

As off-topic id like to say that we men, that play male V's prefeer Panam because of reasons.
 
Hear this :
Most RPG Games are (remember this) ---- "Guided Simulation" within Very Low up to Medium Parametric Variability that MOST users misinterpret as "choices" .
Character Creation is TRULY one aspect where outcomes are .....well ya can do the permutation .................
I'll take my leave ........................................................
 
Hear this :
Most RPG Games are (remember this) ---- "Guided Simulation" within Very Low up to Medium Parametric Variability that MOST users misinterpret as "choices" .
Character Creation is TRULY one aspect where outcomes are .....well ya can do the permutation .................
I'll take my leave ........................................................
this is so true.. even with tabletop rpg's.. the gm guides the simulation to the plot of whatever they are running
 
What I'm confused about is how appearance customization increases investment in the protagonist. V doesn't behave any differently if they have a particular hairstyle or piercing or an uncircumcised dong
Well perhaps not for you, but my first female V looked a lot like the "cover art" killed every single enemy where possible, never got on with Johnny and got the Devil ending

My next V was not as "hard" looking, no facial implants, piercings or tattoos, only disables enemies, managed to get along with Johnny and got the Star ending.

No one told me my V had to behave in a certain way and never change from that path, sorry I played the game the wrong way. I am used to RPG's I so I did not realise I was not allowed to role play in this game. /sarcasm
 
Just because you want something doesn't mean it has a place in the game.

A lot of people wanted Cyberpunk to have GTA-style sandboxing, are we going to start arguing that its absence is a flaw with Cyberpunk just because people wanted it?



I don't find it pointless. I'm simply observing that character creation doesn't work in the creative mold of Cyberpunk as a narrative-driven action game, just as many other potential gameplay systems also wouldn't be a good fit. There are a lot of fun game mechanics out there that don't necessarily have a place in every game.

For character customization specifically, a customizable character isn't necessarily better or worse. Geralt is generally agreed to be an effective protagonist, and the Witcher series has been praised for both characterization and storytelling. It's a very popular game.

Finally, being able to customize your character in Cyberpunk may help you feel more of a connection to the protagonist only because they are more of a blank slate to begin with. This is opposed to, again, Geralt in the Witcher, who has a more defined personality and character that makes him more relatable from the outset.

I would argue that the narrative would be more effective if V had a more concrete background and personality, similar to the Witcher. Perhaps they could differentiated by the life path in terms of appearance and character traits (available dialogue options) which would provide some degree of player choice, but more in line with the style of the rest of the game.
Well, lets agree then to disagree. Because I'm not seeing it the same way.
 
this is so true.. even with tabletop rpg's.. the gm guides the simulation to the plot of whatever they are running
Depends on the GM and the depth of guidance. Some stick to their plot or scenario. Others have you build characters, hand you the world/setting and say, "have at it."

I've played and run both.

Character creation is a key, key part of any RPG, which 2077 is. The ability to choose your stats, looks, skills and eventually preferences lets you define your time in the world. My V is not your V. My choices are not your choices, nor are the motivations typically the same.

Even among my 2 main V characters, I make a lot of different decisions. What I wear, why I wear it (looks good vs armour), how I get jobs done, whether I do them at all, who I help or don't help and why. Do I spare that Corpo from the start of the lifepath? Do I help Saul? What do I do with the VB? With Placide? Delamain? Do I put the guy up on the cross? Do I even talk to River ever again? All determined by my choice of V. Role-playing.

Even if the final end results look similar, (among multiple end states) the path to get there is different. That's true of gaming as much as real life. It's your ability to express your created character in ways you feel represent your idea of that character, that are a measure of an RPGs depth and responsiveness.
 
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What I'm confused about is how appearance customization increases investment in the protagonist.
I tried to explain that, but I can only conclude its simply not your cup of tea.
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Finally, someone who speaks with a brain. Character creation doesn't belong in a narrative driven RPG. Especially since it's first person only.
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This sounds like a statement from a rulebook. I didn't know there was a preverbial rule that character creation does not belong in a narrative driven game (rpg or otherwise).
Cyberpunk isn't a sandbox RPG. It's meant to be narrative driven. Sounds like you'd enjoy sandbox RPGs more than narrative.
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Sounds like sandbox RPGs would appeal to you more. Cyberpunk isn't sandbox, it's narrative.
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I dont remember exactly which one of the "sound like you enjoy sandbox blablabla" excuses was in relation to my post but fine.
The important thing is to illustrate the point that follows.
First and foremost. do not presume what I do or do not enjoy better and for what reason.
It still simple: there are players who prefer to have a narrative-driven character of whom they can setup up their own desired looks for. The character can still be narratively driven and yet allow for a customized looking character. If the story and background of said character is good and well written it will work anyways. That litterally means that looks potentially dont matter jackshit at all. --> means: you can graft that character on any body and it would remain the same experience.
That's your opinion. Sounds like you just have bad taste.
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I know that was not in relation to my comment, but ... Dont do this. I dont think such comment have a place here.
 
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I tried to explain that, but I can only conclude its simply not your cup of tea.
I never brought my preferences into it, is the thing. I based my argument on factual premises and examples about the game and linked them together logically to support a conclusion.

The only responses I've seen are assertions about personal preference, which effectively shuts down any discussion on the matter.
And I explained why it isnt the case for you.
See above.
 
I never brought my preferences into it, is the thing. I based my argument on factual premises and examples about the game and linked them together logically to support a conclusion.

The only responses I've seen are assertions about personal preference, which effectively shuts down any discussion on the matter.

See above.
I assume that you do understand that a personal preference does come into play here right?

I just made a post, i'll try to recap quickly: if a character has a good and well established personality (lets call it that) the appearance of that character is not really of consequence, unless you're gonna base parts of that character specifically about their look.
V is our protagonist and she's established and has her own personality. (Think of the Nomad for a moment, just to allign out thoughts on the matter)
V can look a thousand difderent ways for each player, but the experience for go through is the same. He/she says more or less the same things, same tone, same story.. its all the same.
You might as well place a blanc mannequin there.

This means that the look of the character itself does makes a difference, which also means that it'll work with many different looks, which in turn also means that having a character creation menu has just as much of a place as it would not.

And then, if you can create the character of your own wish, then it creates potentially the adsitional component of that its your specially customized V, its a 'unique' V.
Alternatively one can say I dont care, but that also means that whichever character model is used would be fine, by virtue of not having the added investment in then.

Think of it like the difference for a character that you read about in a book or follow during a movie.

(Doing posts like these are a bit arguous via phone, shitton of mistypes auto corrects and fuckall. I hope I could clearly explain what I'm trying to say)
 
Imagination plays a fundamental role in roleplaying. Even if I have a mid-defined character like V, I'm able to roleplay my own story, like the user who had a Corpo-Japanese V.

Obviously some games allow more flexibility than others but the experience is mine and I'm able to surpass the game's limits.
 
Imagination plays a fundamental role in roleplaying. Even if I have a mid-defined character like V, I'm able to roleplay my own story, like the user who had a Corpo-Japanese V.

Obviously some games allow more flexibility than others but the experience is mine and I'm able to surpass the game's limits.
With the probability of saying something unorthodox.
With this point could we argue that an RPG, wether it based a strong narrative or not, always benefits from a character creation because it can be transcendant for players to reach above what the narrative alone establishes. :)
 
See above.
You say 'I based my argument on factual premises and examples about the game and linked them together logically to support a conclusion.' But I can do exactly the same by pointing at character creation and clothing. Considering that the game is first person only and you cant see the character(which you guys remind me of every time), why did they do this? Because they realized that people want to make their V look a certain way through character customization and clothing(this game has more clothing than Imelda Marcos had shoes and she had lots). This actually makes sense with the first person setting which is supposed to make V's body, your body.

You seek reasoning elsewhere that is supposed to prove that they made the whole character creation system and all clothing items because they appearantly had too much time on their hands. The deicision to make the game first person only goes back quite a while(I can link articles from 2018) so its not a change made the last moment.

The truth is that you fail to connect to your V in the way that others can as I've said before. Thus, you prefer if customization is removed, you prefer a non customizable V and tell us that we would be happy with a predefined V aswell(V is already predefined, I dont know....). That is personal preference.
 
Because they realized that people want to make their V look a certain way through character customization and clothing(this game has more clothing than Imelda Marcos had shoes and she had lots)
The premise of the thread is that this was a mistake.

This actually makes sense with the first person setting which is supposed to make V's body, your body.
Why?

supposed to prove
This isn't about proof or disproof. It's about constructing an argument and (maybe) having a discussion. There are no absolute truths.

they made the whole character creation system and all clothing items because they appearantly had too much time on their hands.
Not part of what I said here.

The truth is that you fail to connect to your V in the way that others can as I've said before.
I don't see how you would know that, or how it would be relevant.

Thus, you prefer if customization is removed, you prefer a non customizable V and tell us that we would be happy with a predefined
Again, this isn't about personal preference.
 
I can appreciate character creation only if the protagonist is sort of a blank slate without voice or defined personality. And there's plenty of player agency and character range to express yourself. And this is where connection to the character stems from. Through self-expression. Like Baldur's Gate III, for example.

If it's a game like Witcher, Mass Effect or Cyberpunk, where protagonist is strongly defined down to voice and name, character editor feels useless. It's nice to create the looks, but it's pure cosmetics and it doesn't do anything for my "connection" to a protagonist. Storytelling is responsible for that, not selection of facial features. Even though I like how Mass Effect 1-2 tried their best to give as much player agency as possible regarding Shepard. Giving him/her first name, gender options and paragon-renegade routes.
 
What I'm confused about is how appearance customization increases investment in the protagonist. V doesn't behave any differently if they have a particular hairstyle or piercing or an uncircumcised dong. The emotional core of the game is the narrative, and the appearance customization is just as much a sidecar to that experience as a GTA-style sandbox open world would be. Player appearance is largely detached from the narrative, precisely because so many constraints are required in order for V to fulfill their role in that narrative.

Even considering a game like Skyrim, which isn't even a particularly stellar example of an RPG, appearance is still more relevant because of the variety of player choice. You can be an assassin, a thief, a mage, and appearance customization allows the player to reinforce their roleplay in any of these scenarios. Furthermore, the Dragonborn is largely a blank slate, which places appearance customization as a much more potent outlet for player personality and expression.

In Cyberpunk, a lot of these choices are already made for the player. The performances given by the PC voice actors supply a lot of the personality expressed by V as a character. The investment that went into crafting these performances, and how they play off of the drama of the narrative, suggests that this is where CDPR intended for the player to form their connection with V. This is further reinforced by their decision to omit third person, even in cutscenes. I would imagine that they would have gone even further with making V a strong character if full appearance customization wasn't present, as such a decision would have leaned further into the already narrative-focused bent of the game.

I think a lot of players who currently prefer appearance customization would be surprised how much they would connect with a predefined V, particularly if CDPR had put the effort devoted to the appearance system into making the PC look as good as possible. The things that really make V relatable as a character is their plight and their response to it. I believe that allowing these elements to take center stage, without the distraction of a malleable self-insert, would make the story that much more powerful.


So should Cyberpunk be more like GTA, a sandboxing open-world game? Being able to go to do more things in the open world would clearly form more of a connection between the player and V, don't you think?
So take something like Tomb Raider. At the most basic level, people loved Lara Croft and invested in her because they, er, wanted to do things to her.

Again, at that most basic level, character customisation facilitates that.
 
I mentioned that a player-created character is important in RPGs not only for immersion and story investment but because if character creation was removed, I doubt the emotional bleed many of us experienced during the highs and lows of the narrative would not have worked as well, if at all.

This is not to say an RPG without a character creation tool can not an RPG, but Cyberpunk is following the ttrpg (and for what it's worth, it does a pretty good job following the 2020 sourcebook); for internal roleplaying purposes you can design your character on the basis of the personality and background you want to to project, artifice or not.
 
Sounds like sandbox RPGs would appeal to you more. Cyberpunk isn't sandbox, it's narrative.
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I had to look up what that meant, lol, but yeah, they probably do. I don't mind mission/quest based games, just so long as you have a lot of freedom with character creation/progression and exploration.
 
To me character creation has always been kind of an "added value", an additional part of "fun". It's nice to have it in an rpg game, although not obligatory. It's also actually never ME in the game, it's something between pouring a bit of yourself into a character and jumping into someone else's shoes. For the time being I am V, but V is not me, so to speak (although I might make some decisions based on my own personality, true to my self, if a game allows for it). That's how rpgs work and how you have fun in them, I guess. Character creation let's you have that virtual person more unique and how you would like them to look. In CP2077 it makes a bit more sense than in other games, because it's a lot about the looks in this game's world. My only gripe is that we can see so little of our character, like for example in reflections and real mirrors, instead of those weird electronic ones which we have to turn on to see "ourselves" ;)

Geralt was a predefined character and I was totally ok with that, just as Arthur Morgan in RDR2. You just hop into their shoes and relive their adventures, just like you relive experiences of a character in a good movie. It's a bit hard to explain how it actually works, but we somehow have an ability to identify ourselves with a fictional character in a story as long as this story goes on. In games like Mass Effect or CP2077 we just have a chance to define those characters a bit more to our liking, also thanks to character creation. And that's perfectly fine. Like I said, an added value.
 
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