The problem with SY

[Fargothwave]

The problem in question is, of course, Coins.

Coins, by their very design, are a questionable mechanic - they are points your opponent can't reach until you decide to spend them (and if you turn them into damage, they can't be interacted with at all).
But that's not my main gripe with them, even though regular carryover tools are definitely less flexible and convenient, but you know what, fine, ST got handuff, SK got raw points, whatever. It's not a game-breaking issue per se.

Now, the ability to expend any amounts of said points in just one turn without any limitations is a super questionable mechanic, that allows SY (especially the Bounty variety) to achieve in a single turn what other factions need to spend 2 or 3 turns on, the most egregious cases being Tunnel Drill and 25 points Jackals last-say, which fundamentally doesn't work within Gwent's framework.

CDPR went to great lenghts to enforce the 1 turn = 1 major play rule

Spoiler: offtop

it's a pity Double Cross is exempt from this btw

, but spenders (especially the damage variety) violate this rule hard by enabling super-swingy plays without any kind of disruptable setup. A regular control deck just can't suddenly stop being a control deck if pitted against some unitless nonsense or a swarm, it always results in a bit of a pickle for the control player...but SY can always direct their points elsewhere (or just wipe swarm if they feel like it, too). Safe, convenient, flexible. Back when coin generation was sometimes hard, spenders didn't feel so broken...most of the time. But as of now, coins are super easy to generate.

I'd also like to remind you how Vissegerd, the only non-SY card akin to spenders in principle, required a whole round of setup and CDPR still took away his Zeal because he was oppressive as hell.

Proposed solutions:
1) Either keep coins "inside" units until spent (so there's an element of risk involved, through keeping your spender or your coin holders exposed for at least a turn). Maybe also make the stored coins act like shield so that they aren't too easy to take away;
2) Hard-limit the amount of coins you can spend in a single turn to 9 (Don't really like this solution myself, but it kinda makes sense);
3) Introduce the limit on how many times a particular spender can be used in a single turn. Igor has this limitation, and it makes sense. It would make even more sense on damage-dealing spenders.


So...that's it. Feel free to comment, opinions are welcome.

 

[Guest 4375874]

The problem in question is, of course, Coins.

Coins, by their very design, are a questionable mechanic - they are points your opponent can't reach until you decide to spend them (and if you turn them into damage, they can't be interacted with at all).
But that's not my main gripe with them, even though regular carryover tools are definitely less flexible and convenient, but you know what, fine, ST got handuff, SK got raw points, whatever. It's not a game-breaking issue per se.

Now, the ability to expend any amounts of said points in just one turn without any limitations is a super questionable mechanic, that allows SY (especially the Bounty variety) to achieve in a single turn what other factions need to spend 2 or 3 turns on, the most egregious cases being Tunnel Drill and 25 points Jackals last-say, which fundamentally doesn't work within Gwent's framework.

CDPR went to great lenghts to enforce the 1 turn = 1 major play rule

Spoiler: offtop

it's a pity Double Cross is exempt from this btw

, but spenders (especially the damage variety) violate this rule hard by enabling super-swingy plays without any kind of disruptable setup. A regular control deck just can't suddenly stop being a control deck if pitted against some unitless nonsense or a swarm, it always results in a bit of a pickle for the control player...but SY can always direct their points elsewhere (or just wipe swarm if they feel like it, too). Safe, convenient, flexible. Back when coin generation was sometimes hard, spenders didn't feel so broken...most of the time. But as of now, coins are super easy to generate.

I'd also like to remind you how Vissegerd, the only non-SY card akin to spenders in principle, required a whole round of setup and CDPR still took away his Zeal because he was oppressive as hell.

Proposed solutions:
1) Either keep coins "inside" units until spent (so there's an element of risk involved, through keeping your spender or your coin holders exposed for at least a turn). Maybe also make the stored coins act like shield so that they aren't too easy to take away;
2) Hard-limit the amount of coins you can spend in a single turn to 9 (Don't really like this solution myself, but it kinda makes sense);
3) Introduce the limit on how many times a particular spender can be used in a single turn. Igor has this limitation, and it makes sense. It would make even more sense on damage-dealing spenders.


So...that's it. Feel free to comment, opinions are welcome.

I think I said it in another post but SY essentially has every tool under the sun with the only restriction being coins. They can counter tall, wide, defenders, pretty much anything and what makes them even more versatile is their cards reusability. Most card effects require another card or turn to give zeal to reenable an ability but they can simply do this by having more coins. Coins that they can get through removal. Even if they aren't putting a body on the board, they can use a single card...spend all their coins to make up for the point difference. Everything you outlined is accurate but that seems to be intentional on the devs part. They said some time ago "huge point swings" is what they are aiming for and that's what we're seeing.

I don't even play SY anymore lol I just forfeit. If I que in to them too much I log out and try my luck another day which is becoming more and more these days as the list of factions to avoid grows larger.

 

[Kessman]

Spenders, especially those "pew pew pew" ones, should have a counter.

 

[Moors-]

Drill and Freak Show should have a Melee row lock for the Fee and a Deathblow: Move self to the Ranged row.

 

[saodhar]

Drill and Freak Show should have a Melee row lock for the Fee and a Deathblow: Move self to the Ranged row.

Okay, I can understand the first part, but how in the name of everything unholy you justify the second part? They run away or hide in shame of killing a person?

The problem in question is, of course, Coins.

There's nothing wrong with coins. They're included in the units' cost/power balance. Cards that give you tons of coins with minimal or no setup are just poorly designed - and THAT'S the game's problem.

Proposed solutions:
1) Either keep coins "inside" units until spent (so there's an element of risk involved, through keeping your spender or your coin holders exposed for at least a turn). Maybe also make the stored coins act like shield so that they aren't too easy to take away;

Sounds interesting. Maybe, if a unit is killed, some of its leftover coins could be spawned as Crown tokens? A half, a third, something like that.

2) Hard-limit the amount of coins you can spend in a single turn to 9 (Don't really like this solution myself, but it kinda makes sense);

I honestly don't see how this makes sense. Especially logic- or lore-wise. Careful criminal spenders?

3) Introduce the limit on how many times a particular spender can be used in a single turn. Igor has this limitation, and it makes sense. It would make even more sense on damage-dealing spenders.

I think that's the best idea. Fixes both "no setup" problem and limits coins spent per turn with a single spenders, so players have to play more of them on the board. Easy to implement and balance now with Cooldown being so actively introduced to many cards that had charges before.

 

[Moors-]

Okay, I can understand the first part, but how in the name of everything unholy you justify the second part? They run away or hide in shame of killing a person?

I you want to have a 'lore reason' for every interaction, you can imagine that after committing a crime (destroying a unit) Drill and Freak Show must go into the shadows for a while to avoid being caught.

 

[zBleach25]

Devs overdid buffs to Syndicate I'm afraid. With all the pros and cons of the mechanic something like beggar is 6 for 4 with no condition other than to have a spender; more with bonded. Besides pirate Cove and Jackpot solve the two main issues of the mechanic: spenders and overprofit. In any case I would rather see other factions buffed than syndicate getting nerfed

 

[Guest 4375874]

I think that's the best idea. Fixes both "no setup" problem and limits coins spent per turn with a single spenders, so players have to play more of them on the board. Easy to implement and balance now with Cooldown being so actively introduced to many cards that had charges before.

Now let's see how many months it takes the devs to figure this out lol We thought SK should have been an easy fix, adding doomed to scenarios took them how long despite the obvious. I wouldn't get my hopes up for this

 

[Fargothwave]

I think sending a row-locked damage-dealling spender to the backrow after a single kill is a bit too extreme. Putting it on a 1/2 turn cooldown, depending on the card, after getting a deathblow, is more fair. That would decrease these cards' toxicity from Eist-tier to poison-tier, which is...acceptable...nowadays.

Bronze self-boosters should also probably have some sort of limit, like self-lock at certain value (like 12 for Jackals).

Of course, this whole issue could theoretically be solved on the coin generation side, but how do you actually balance Bounties? Their power is always a variable, so I'd rather let this mechanic be.

 

[StanislavOZZO]

SY were never the strongest until the latest boost. If you remember, they were briefly in Tier 1 after Passiflora was introduced but before and after SY sucked badly. Recently CDPR went over their heads to boost it so that people play more of it, and in the process overdid it - it now became too strong (Crimes, then Pirate Cove decks). As you see, SY is gradually being nerfed now and will find its place in one of the lower echelons soon.

I think that coins as a mechanic is not a problem. The problem is in the balance, which is manageable. Just because you can't touch the opponent's coins CDPR will make steps so that SY is never the strongest deck.

And let's not forget about fun and lore. I like that the faction has distinguishing features. Coins are well aligned with lore. SY is also (arguably) the most difficult faction to pilot, since you need to take into account the coins. It trains you to count to 9 fluently, isn't that great?!

 

[Celadyl]

SY were never the strongest until the latest boost. If you remember, they were briefly in Tier 1 after Passiflora was introduced but before and after SY sucked badly.

"Briefly" lol. I didnt play gwent for months bc I was sick and tired of passi and ball being tier 0^^ and remember when SY came out it was (imo) undeniably top tier, often wiping out the entire opponents board in a couple turns with no-cooldown-caleb menge and ewald. as far as I'm concerned SY has almost always been one of the top dog factions.

 

[saodhar]

I you want to have a 'lore reason' for every interaction, you can imagine that after committing a crime (destroying a unit) Drill and Freak Show must go into the shadows for a while to avoid being caught.

Why only them then? Why don't boosting spenders get locked after spending too much dirty Syndicate money? Or any unit that kills another unit? And yes, if units' abilities are only serving mechanics purposes, Gwent will lose its last bits of authenticity, so I'm rooting for lore reasons everywhere.

Now let's see how many months it takes the devs to figure this out lol We thought SK should have been an easy fix, adding doomed to scenarios took them how long despite the obvious. I wouldn't get my hopes up for this

Hopes? There is no hope in Gwent.

 

[DRK3]

Syndicate is quite a tricky subject, there are a lot of factors to take into account when evaluating its course over the last 2 years (it will be the 2nd bday of this faction next week, FYI).

Its the one apart from the others, having been released later on, and the devs clearly wanted to set it apart, with a unique mechanic, no starter deck and marketing it as "for advanced players". But they also dont want it to have low playrates, that would look like a failure, so i do think it gets some special attention, and some perks other factions wish they had.

But from my experience and observation, Syndicate is NOT a beloved faction by the players, in fact it maybe the bottom last.
This doesnt mean its always the least played, most players put competitiveness above personal preference, so they will play any faction as long as it gets them consistent wins.

What i noticed is SY is only the most played faction when its clearly the dominant force in the meta, clearly superior to all others, or at least 3-4 others... like right now. When SY is at the same level as the others, it barely sees play, and this creates the perception that the faction is weak at those times, which is incorrect, since the faction has NEVER really been weak

 

[Markus_Wirth]

My perspective is as follows:

• I like the idea of coins. The challenge is having an appropriate amount of coin giver and spender. The reward can be above average and Freak Show, Witch Hunter Executioner and Tunnel Drill can be nice ellimination tools
• I do not have the feeling that SY is dominating the current meta
• However, I think that the problem of SY is more that some of their cards are too strong. They did the right thing with nerfing The Professor. Below some suggestion regarding nerfs of other cards. The main problem is that it´s too elimination heavy.

Whoreson Junior
Insanity.
Deploy: Damage a boosted enemy unit by 6. Gain a Coin for every point of excess damage dealt.
Devotion (Ranged): Boost an opponent unit by 1, then damage it by 6
Fee 3: Destroy an enemy unit with 3 power or less.
=> Otherwise it´s just a too strong ellimination tool + spender. After this nerf 6 body units can be eliminating more difficulty

Whoreson's Freak Show
Human, Cutups
Profit 2.
Fee 2 (Melee): Damage an enemy unit by 2.
Cooldown: 1
If you control at least 2 allied cutups cancel cooldown so that you can use the fee as often as you want
=> Especially combined with bounty this can be a huge elimination engine. A slight nerf can also encourage some new deck buildings.

Roland Bleinheim
Whenever a unit is Poisoned, gain 2 Coins.
Adrenaline 2: Whenever a unit is Poisoned, gain 1 Coin instead.
=> To reduce the Jackpot + Double Salamander combo a bit

 

[Rajhi]

Clearly the SY is the greatest winner of the price of power modifications. Plus order cards they have permanent zeal. With Hale, and a damager you can destroy every unit which your opponent plays. Gathering coins should be more difficult.

 

[Moors-]

An idea how to limit Drill uses:

 

[nedders]

The problem with SY is they can easily plop down Freakshow or Drill and smash through units with no answer that round. Lambert for 10 provs can just about do a handful of damage, but won't remove anything. At almost no set-up, for 7 provs each, you can decimate the opponents board.

The answer is super simple - both cards should have "order". You could maybe even add "Tribute:4 - gain zeal".

 

[quintivarium]

The problem with SY is they can easily plop down Freakshow or Drill and smash through units with no answer that round…. At almost no set-up, for 7 provs each, you can decimate the opponents board.

I certainly do not like the power imbalances between factions and cards. Both drill and freak show generate far too many points without opportunity for response. But I cannot tolerate blatant untruths. I would not consider getting 9 coins in a bank, placing a bounty, and creating a crown splitter pocket “almost no set up”. Let’s be reasonable.

 

[Celadyl]

I think a better "nerf" would be a cooldown of 1 once a card is killed with fee (a new keyword probably). spending coins for damage is one thing but the way it currently is you can remove multiple units with ongoing effects, something no other faction can do reliably that way. sure you might be able to trigger scenario with vincent and kill two units in one turn but that is a one-time move. the only limiting factor with cards like drill are coins, and you can set up a bounty, have 9 coins and get up to 9 additional coins from leader and just murder everything in 1 burst.

btw I've just noticed for the first time that SY has the most cards? wtf? how has the newest faction to the game 215 cards while all others have 177/179, thats absurd

 

[Bleach25]

I certainly do not like the power imbalances between factions and cards. Both drill and freak show generate far too many points without opportunity for response. But I cannot tolerate blatant untruths. I would not consider getting 9 coins in a bank, placing a bounty, and creating a crown splitter pocket “almost no set up”. Let’s be reasonable.

Cleaver can take care of most of this though. Just spawn two Muscles and even if Cleaver gets taken care of you're set, because realistically none will be able to take care of the two 5 points bodies. After that each swindle becomes 7 coins (6+1 from leader ability) and you can slam drill. As for the bounty...it depends on Witchfinder I guess, not the easiest to shut down