Lets appreciate the star of the show

[BigWezz69]

Ironic, because your response to another lore-related subject:
"If Max Tac was implemented properly there would be two outcomes, death or incarceration."
is this:
If you want to play the lore purist, be consistent about

Not caring about the lore, and having to find a balance between staying within the lore, and making a game actually playable are two very different things. Nice try though

And to repeat: Night City looks more than real enough to maintain the illusion of a living world while I'm doing the things that I'm actually interested in. It just so happens that those things don't involve "fascinating" activities like V tailing random NPCs and mass murders.

Nice of you to assume that those are the only two things that I and other's like. I never knew there was a "right" way to play

At the end of the day, NC is pretty to look at, but has as much depth as a puddle. If you like going from gig to gig, and don't take in the city, that's your choice. But I and others enjoy walking/driving around and seeing the world that CDPR built, its not our fault that the NPC AI is, as the Internet Historian puts it; ".. more A than I."

 

[ya1]

NC is like an art museum. Pretty. But can't touch anything.

 

[Guest 3847602]

Not caring about the lore, and having to find a balance between staying within the lore, and making a game actually playable are two very different things. Nice try though

And the game would still be playable if the 100 level MaxTac unit spawns and one-shots you after you start killing civilians. All you'd have to in order to play the game with this mechanism implemented would be to... not kill civilians.

Nice of you to assume that those are the only two things that I and other's like. I never knew there was a "right" way to play

Yeah, I assumed too much. Right after you implied that MaxTac preventing the fulfillment of GTA-like fantasy would make this game unplayable.

 

[lelxrv]

I think the bigger star is the population of Night City that you interact with. I wish there was bigger choice in conversations than more trivia.

 

[BigWezz69]

And the game would still be playable if the 100 level MaxTac unit spawns and one-shots you after you start killing civilians. All you'd have to in order to play the game with this mechanism implemented would be to... not kill civilians.

Again, if you don't wish to play that way, that is your choice. Other like to play differently ..

Yeah, I assumed too much. Right after you implied that MaxTac preventing the fulfillment of GTA-like fantasy would make this game unplayable.

I never said that MaxTac would make the game unplayable, not at all, don't strawman people, its beneath you.

Making MaxTac unbalanced would make the game unplayable, MaxTac are not invincible in the lore and they aren't (and shouldn't be) impossible to kill in game. I never once implied that MaxTac should or should not be OP. A fight with MaxTac could be tough, as tough as a boss battle, but not impossible.

 

[andrewdilley]

I think the bigger star is the population of Night City that you interact with. I wish there was bigger choice in conversations than more trivia.

I'm hoping they expand the interaction, though the inane babble is actually pretty life-like.

 

[lelxrv]

I'm hoping they expand the interaction, though the inane babble is actually pretty life-like.

Unless it's something that was cut for time constraints, I don't think it's possible.

 

[Didacgomez]

Again, if you don't wish to play that way, that is your choice. Other like to play differently ..




I never said that MaxTac would make the game unplayable, not at all, don't strawman people, its beneath you.

Making MaxTac unbalanced would make the game unplayable, MaxTac are not invincible in the lore and they aren't (and shouldn't be) impossible to kill in game. I never once implied that MaxTac should or should not be OP. A fight with MaxTac could be tough, as tough as a boss battle, but not impossible.

Max-Tac mechanic should work as Masquerade Violations,humanity points... it should be insta kill and game over i will also support a delete of save files of the character(not sure if this would be qualified as malware,but is how this should work).
You are trying to turn into CyberGTA,when the franchise upon which CP2077 is build explicitily discourage to be a "psycho"(and not sure how much CDPR can alter the franchise, should be written somewhere)...on the other hand, the franchise who encourages that player behaviour is from the same studio that created "Manhunt",so they don't have concerns about players behaving in a certain way.
Not saying one approach to violence depiction in media is better or worse,but at the end is an authors decision about how to approach violence.

 

[MrGuyton]

Max-Tac mechanic should work as Masquerade Violations,humanity points... it should be insta kill and game over i will also support a delete of save files of the character(not sure if this would be qualified as malware,but is how this should work).
You are trying to turn into CyberGTA,when the franchise upon which CP2077 is build explicitily discourage to be a "psycho"(and not sure how much CDPR can alter the franchise, should be written somewhere)...on the other hand, the franchise who encourages that player behaviour is from the same studio that created "Manhunt",so they don't have concerns about players behaving in a certain way.
Not saying one approach to violence depiction in media is better or worse,but at the end is an authors decision about how to approach violence.

We're straying a bit but cyber - psychosis points instead of wanted stars (with some kind of multiplier based on how augmented you are) as a trigger for a Maxtac response would be better

 

[Didacgomez]

We're straying a bit but cyber - psychosis points instead of wanted stars (with some kind of multiplier based on how augmented you are) as a trigger for a Maxtac response would be better

You are right,we are drifting too much from thread original intend and this would probably need another thread about violence depiction in an inherently violent setting.
(Poor man Red Point to @MrGuyton )

 

[-Nailes-]

The topic drifted away from the original subject a while ago. About when Bigwezz69 decided to do an AI analysis and comparison(and while NC AI does weird things sometimes, GTA AI isnt as superior as he thinks but whatever).
Its alright, I'll give a few 'poor man red points' to both of you for it, it takes longer than pushing the button below a reply, cherish it.(edit; now with real red points)

 

[BigWezz69]

The topic drifted away from the original subject a while ago. About when Bigwezz69 decided to do an AI analysis and comparison(and while NC AI does weird things sometimes, GTA AI isnt as superior as he thinks but whatever).
Its alright, I'll give a few 'poor man red points' to both of you for it, it takes longer than pushing the button below a reply, cherish it.(edit; now with real red points)

Well you did mention NPC's in your original post and I never took it off topic by talking about something you brought up. I also mentioned RDR2 AI and not just GTA AI, and those two games do have superior AI in terms of believability (immersion), natural behaviour and pathfinding, but sure what ever.

 

[-Nailes-]

Well you did mention NPC's in your original post and I never took it off topic by talking about something you brought up. I also mentioned RDR2 AI and not just GTA AI, and those two games do have superior AI in terms of believability (immersion), natural behaviour and pathfinding, but sure what ever.

I talked about the way they look, you started analysing their behaviour. Thats quite a difference. Its like going to a review on a phone and when they mention where it was made, you start a socio political rant about said country.
I watched the video you provided that makes the comparison between GTA and CP and it doesnt look superior, sorry. No, no in believability either. Not going to get into it, its not relevant to the topic.

RDR2 cannot be compared, its towns with 25-30 inhabitants at most, Fallout 4 has great settler AI that navigates player built creations and follows a routine but again, its settlements with 25-30 inhabitants. If you want CDPR to make a city with hundreds of inhabitants who all have complete daily routines, they'd need to do a 'duke nukem forever' delay the game until 2025 or something. Its small towns with complex AI or large cities with less complex AI, you cant have both.

 

[cartlidge]

I still love going about the city,.. I explore all the time, I love stumbling over conversations between two people that brings the town to life for me. I've delighted in finding out the major players in Watson and the way they are interconnected. From the people smugglers ferrying people to Jotaro to the people before me who were meant to take out BD guys but got fried. There is just so much detail hidden away it is a joy to seek it out.

It's a toss up my next playthrough between a knife wielding/throwing ex-valentino, damn I am gonna get vengence for jackie that playthrough but fight johnny all the way. I expect the game to give me some interesting options as I RP an anti-corpo/anti-johnny, honour bound valentino. Or a pistol wielding ex-cop, private eye, returning to the city and making a list of names and connecting people, taking out the kingpins,.. death wish style.

 

[BigWezz69]

I talked about the way they look, you started analysing their behaviour. Thats quite a difference. Its like going to a review on a phone and when they mention where it was made, you start a socio political rant about said country.

Pure nonsense. NC is not a static image, how the NPC's act are very much part of who/what they are

I watched the video you provided that makes the comparison between GTA and CP and it doesnt look superior, sorry. No, no in believability either. Not going to get into it, its not relevant to the topic.

Cool, but most disagree.

RDR2 cannot be compared, its towns with 25-30 inhabitants at most, Fallout 4 has great settler AI that navigates player built creations and follows a routine but again, its settlements with 25-30 inhabitants. If you want CDPR to make a city with hundreds of inhabitants who all have complete daily routines, they'd need to do a 'duke nukem forever' delay the game until 2025 or something. Its small towns with complex AI or large cities with less complex AI, you cant have both.

What? Not every NPC in NC is rendered and on the map at the same instance. The player can only see so far, therefore there are not "hundreds" of NPC's on screen at once, at best I think I've seen about 50 and that's with the NPC count cranked up. If every NPC was fully rendered (the city too), players would need very powerful PC's to run it, but that's not how this game (and all others) work. There is a render bubble around the player and based on distance from the player certain things are or are not rendered, there is never a need to add "hundreds" of NPC's on screen at once. Games that have huge NPC counts are RTS games where players control units of NPC's, but that's a whole different box of frogs.

The NPC's of CP77 do not have to be as great or as detailed as those of RDR2, but parking on a footpath, and seeing NPC just turn around and head back in the direction they came from .. in a 2020 game? Nah, poor AI at best. And the NPC's who "drive" and randomly stop or cannot navigate a simple obstruction in the road ... terrible

I get people don't like to talk about the short coming of the game, but there is nothing wrong in doing so. ignoring a games issues (any game), that is a odd thing to do and it doesn't help the devs improve the game, or make changes to any future games.

 

[LeKill3rFou]

The player can only see so far, therefore there are not "hundreds" of NPC's on screen at once, at best I think I've seen about 50 and that's with the NPC count cranked up.

I have to disagree, I'm on XBSX (no settings at all and XB1 version) and I take a screenshot with more than 50 NPCs, that's for sure (City Center at mid day).
Found it > here.
But I did say, AI or NPCs are "good". But for me, as long as there is a semblance of life it is the main

 

[BigWezz69]

I have to disagree, I'm on XBSX (no settings at all and XB1 version) and I take a screenshot with more than 50 NPCs, that's for sure (City Center at mid day).
Found it > here.
But I did say, AI or NPCs are "good". But for me, as long as there is a semblance of life it is the main

Fair, however as you zoom in on that image, you can see how the NPC's are not fully rendered at distance. This is for GPU usage, all games do this so its not abnormal for CP77. This can coincide with AI too, the AI does not have to be awe-inspiring at a distance, but it should at close range for a 2020 release.

But I think where you chose to park you bike was unfortunate as is underscores woeful the traffic AI.

 

[-Nailes-]

Pure nonsense. NC is not a static image, how the NPC's act are very much part of who/what they are

You missed the point of the topic

What? Not every NPC in NC is rendered and on the map at the same instance. The player can only see so far, therefore there are not "hundreds" of NPC's on screen at once, at best I think I've seen about 50 and that's with the NPC count cranked up.

I get way more NPCs on screen, especially in the inner city streets are crowded. You are also forgetting that if you want to give them routines, you also have to give them homes and workplaces to go to. If there are only 10 houses its easy. If you have skyscrapers and hundreds of NPCs, it requires a little bit more work.

I never said the AI is perfect. But it doesnt have to be, in this topic.

 

[BigWezz69]

You are also forgetting that if you want to give them routines, you also have to give them homes and workplaces to go to. If there are only 10 houses its easy. If you have skyscrapers and hundreds of NPCs, it requires a little bit more work.

There are megablocks and tall hab buildings everywhere, it would not be hard to have NPC's coming and going from the buildings main doors, so not every NPC would need an individual home.

Most screenshots are pretty, but NPC's are as part of the city as the city itself, as are their behaviours/actions. While they are visually interesting out of context, in context seeing them move, this is somewhat less interesting due to their issues.

If you think I'm trying to dissuade you from liking the game, I'm not, and its good that you like it.

 

[-Nailes-]

There are megablocks and tall hab buildings everywhere, it would not be hard to have NPC's coming and going from the buildings main doors, so not every NPC would need an individual home.

Most screenshots are pretty, but NPC's are as part of the city as the city itself, as are their behaviours/actions. While they are visually interesting out of context, in context seeing them move, this is somewhat less interesting due to their issues.

If you think I'm trying to dissuade you from liking the game, I'm not, and its good that you like it.

having them go to a building door and then what? doors open for them but you cant enter? or they just dissapear? People would complain about that so having them wander around is probably better.

In order to see the dystopia, the mirror that the city is, the beautiful parts aswell as the ugly parts, the NPCs are scenery and they dont have to do anything complex. It would obviously depend on what you screenshot and exploring would be better but a set of screenshots can do the job, yes. And in that case the AI complexity or lack thereof, doesnt matter.