Controversy in gaming

[227]

Don't know if it's been mentioned yet, but for a good time, click here and then read the first page.

More on topic, aiming for controversy is like aiming for your own orgasm in sex—if that's the focus rather than a byproduct, you're going to face a series of very displeased, very naked people. If there's controversy, fine. If a game is designed to drum up controversy for cheap attention (cough Kojima cough) rather than it being a natural result of the story, then the game will suffer for it. Good writing can address controversial topics without having to show them in a way that skirts the boundaries of good taste, and that's what I'm hoping for in 2077. Anything short of that would feel cheap.

Also, cun-truh-var-say. Because.

 

[dekkarius]

227, I feel that "aiming for controversy" is part of the basis of the cyberpunk movement having ever happened. They saw what the norm was, and Bruce Sterling, William Gibson and others felt it was time to paint a very different picture where bad shit actually happens. I think controversy became part of the goal, because they were tired of people painting stale, boring utopian futures where we trust in our government to lead us into the future like during the 50's and 60's with the space race, and the rapid technological developments through that time that created what they had by the 1980's when the cyberpunk movement really went on. I'm sure living in the 70's showed these authors that things were not going to always be alright and wonderful even though we just put men on the moon.

The picture they painted was much darker and more startling than those before them. They had protagonists that were criminals, who may struggle with drug use or be close to those that were. Their lives were at risk for sometimes stupid reasons, and they were pushed into bad places by the government or its agents of action. The authors permanently shook the basis of sci fi because they saw a future that wasn't as pleasant as everyone was hoping for. I am near certain that they aimed for controversy very much intentionally.

How much of that philosophy will we see carried forward by Cyberpunk 2077? I don't know. But I feel that there is definitely a way to aim for controversy, without only caring about their own collective orgasm. I'm pretty sure there is a way for us all to be naked and not be displeased... if that is in fact the positive outcome of that comparison! Haha!

 

[chriswebb2020.736]

Well, Cyberpunk does have an inherent amount of controversy, but it's a specific type.

 

[clairobscur]

Worse. medium. ever. to do want you want to do.

Better to write a book and have plenty of research to back it up...

I disagree.

First because I wish a "mature" "dark" game to show things as they are (or more exactly would be). For instance the two cinematics released for The witcher 3 show respectively a massacre in a village and a lynching (note by the way that The witcher's creators seem to have a thing for villagers being massacred. Happens in both 1 and 2). Both of these things would indeed happen in the wake of a medieval-style war. Rape would too. Showing those things is not gratuitous. It definitely partipates in setting the mood. The main issue I have with most CPRGs is that I feel nothing. I don't care about anything happening in game to anybody. When I did feel something, it was pretty often the result of a shocking event or revelation, especially when the character couldn't do much to "save the day" or "make things right". To give examples : the fate of the village and villagers at the end of the first chapter of The witcher I. Or a very different one : revelations about the protagonist in Planescape Torment. So I've no issue with showing shocking events in a game, at the contrary. They might me feel depressed, they might make me hate in-game characters, whatever...either way the game becomes way more interesting because I'm emotionnally involved.

Second for the reason mentioned by many other posters : outright murder, torture, burning at the stake, etc... are depicted lavishly in about every game, but somehow hinting at the existence of rape should be reserved to well researched books? The main protagonists in The witcher 2 (Roche and Iorveth) are cold blooded murderers (and even skilled torturer in the case of Roche) but I should flinch at the mere mention of rape (or even, according to some, fortunately not here, at the mere mention of sex)? Count me amongst the people unable to understand this point of view. I wish my "mature" dark" game to forget about this schizophrenic position.

Now, I understand that a game producer will want to protect his sales figures and will try to avoid the game getting a bad rap when the offenderati will discover that in-between two scenes of decapitation or burning a house to the ground with people inside a rape is depicted too. But I regret this sad and absurd state of affairs.

 

[227]

227, I feel that "aiming for controversy" is part of the basis of the cyberpunk movement having ever happened.

We're defining controversy differently.

I mean controversy in the sense that the presentation causes it, and that shouldn't be the goal regardless of the themes being explored (those darker themes being what you seem to mean by controversy). My point is that it's possible to explore pretty much anything, including themes that would ordinarily be considered controversial, without having people up in arms. Because of that, any exploration of those themes would be cheapened by presenting it in a "shocking and controversial" manner.

Basically, imagine a torture sequence. If it was shown at length in graphic detail, that would probably be pretty controversial. If it was implied rather than shown and the effects of it were later explored, that would not only wind up causing less controversy, but it would also likely make it even more vivid and disturbing (the human brain has a tendency to fill in the blanks, so dark themes are made darker because of how we personalize them when elements are left up to the imagination).

 

[KIrving]

We're defining controversy differently.

I mean controversy in the sense that the presentation causes it, and that shouldn't be the goal regardless of the themes being explored (those darker themes being what you seem to mean by controversy). My point is that it's possible to explore pretty much anything, including themes that would ordinarily be considered controversial, without having people up in arms. Because of that, any exploration of those themes would be cheapened by presenting it in a "shocking and controversial" manner.

Basically, imagine a torture sequence. If it was shown at length in graphic detail, that would probably be pretty controversial. If it was implied rather than shown and the effects of it were later explored, that would not only wind up causing less controversy, but it would also likely make it even more vivid and disturbing (the human brain has a tendency to fill in the blanks, so dark themes are made darker because of how we personalize them when elements are left up to the imagination).

This is very much how I feel. In my opinion it's not necessary to depict everything in graphic detail, as really good story telling stimulates the imagination.

Also regarding the subject of rape, which I believe does need to be handled intelligently and with care (if at all), the very real instances of male to male rape and female to male rape are rarely ever even implied in this medium. How these things occur and who are the ones who prey on others is surely going to be somewhat different in the near future of Cyberpunk 2077 than say a game based on medieval Europe.

 

[Decatonkeil]

This is very much how I feel. In my opinion it's not necessary to depict everything in graphic detail, as really good story telling stimulates the imagination.

Also regarding the subject of rape, which I believe does need to be handled intelligently and with care (if at all), the very real instances of male to male rape and female to male rape are rarely ever even implied in this medium. How these things occur and who are the ones who prey on others is surely going to be somewhat different in the near future of Cyberpunk 2077 than say a game based on medieval Europe.

Males being victims of rape almost always implies they being children if we're talking about real life. That's touchy. Everywhere. There's one manga, no, two mangas that I know of where the main character is a male that was raped by a man when they were children, one of them is a *historical* figure and that having happened in history could or could not be implied in certain events that did happen. In this manga it happens. I think both do it pretty well. The thing that I liked in the other example was that it kind of ended in a fulfilled but still empty and meaningless vengeance and, as uncomfortable and disgusting as the main event portrayed was the story still manages to slap you with what the character feels afterwards, the warped memories of what he feels happened there. It made me feel very sorry for the character and it didn't necesarily come with the "I'd want to protect this character" that is pretty much always pushed when the character is a female which, to me, doesn't belong there if the character is the main character or even your avatar in the gameworld.

One of this manga even has some things that can be perceived as homo-eroticism but I would just say it's just that homosexuality has a place in this story, don't know if I'm making any sense, it's not like it's catering to that niche. And that's something that mainstream authors or markets wouldn't understand. They would perceive it as a stigma to their character's masculinity or heterosexuality to be affected by these scenarios.

The other possible scenario we think the most when talking about male rape victims is that of the victim of his jailmates. This has been sadly relegated to a joke, and not a funny one, although repeated by everyone. It has also infected the general public's minds with the idea that "rape has a place and that is as an additive penalty for certain criminals".

But ultimately these two examples are set both in medieval *european* settings.

And then, male raped by female... nobody takes a serious approach to this. It's like we expect the straight male rape victim to enjoy it coming from a female. Because obviously all women are hot and we would still call it rape if it was semi-consensual. No, for it to be considered rape it shouldn't respond to the expectations created by "rape fantasy" porn.

 

[Poet_and_Gentleman.598]

double

 

[Poet_and_Gentleman.598]

I disagree.

First because I wish a "mature" "dark" game to show things as they are (or more exactly would be). For instance the two cinematics released for The witcher 3 show respectively a massacre in a village and a lynching (note by the way that The witcher's creators seem to have a thing for villagers being massacred. Happens in both 1 and 2). Both of these things would indeed happen in the wake of a medieval-style war. Rape would too. Showing those things is not gratuitous. It definitely partipates in setting the mood. The main issue I have with most CPRGs is that I feel nothing. I don't care about anything happening in game to anybody. When I did feel something, it was pretty often the result of a shocking event or revelation, especially when the character couldn't do much to "save the day" or "make things right". To give examples : the fate of the village and villagers at the end of the first chapter of The witcher I. Or a very different one : revelations about the protagonist in Planescape Torment. So I've no issue with showing shocking events in a game, at the contrary. They might me feel depressed, they might make me hate in-game characters, whatever...either way the game becomes way more interesting because I'm emotionnally involved.

Second for the reason mentioned by many other posters : outright murder, torture, burning at the stake, etc... are depicted lavishly in about every game, but somehow hinting at the existence of rape should be reserved to well researched books? The main protagonists in The witcher 2 (Roche and Iorveth) are cold blooded murderers (and even skilled torturer in the case of Roche) but I should flinch at the mere mention of rape (or even, according to some, fortunately not here, at the mere mention of sex)? Count me amongst the people unable to understand this point of view. I wish my "mature" dark" game to forget about this schizophrenic position.

Now, I understand that a game producer will want to protect his sales figures and will try to avoid the game getting a bad rap when the offenderati will discover that in-between two scenes of decapitation or burning a house to the ground with people inside a rape is depicted too. But I regret this sad and absurd state of affairs.

It wasn't nescessarily refering to sex but why in the world do you insist on seeing a pair of pixelated tits?

It's not the feminists I care about, I just don't see how it can add to the game in a meaningful way. There's plenty of porn already in the internet .

 

[dekkarius]

227, I feel that you present a much safer way to foray into topics that could be offensive, and that it is one of the most important things devs should take from this thread. It would lend the ability to paint a much more emotionally involved world for the player on a level of subjects that matter, while presenting optimum defense from those who want to be offended (sadly I think that's the best way to put it). Pushing past your suggestion, and to depict controversy in greater detail, would have to be a managed risk.

 

[Mikedudeh]

I trust CDPR will handle things well. They did with The Witcher games. It's possibility of mod support that worries me. The Elder Scrolls games always end up being modded into sex simulators/ erotic dress up games, God knows why, and the media has always eaten that up.

 

[chriswebb2020.736]

I trust CDPR will handle things well. They did with The Witcher games. It's possibility of mod support that worries me. The Elder Scrolls games always end up being modded into sex simulators/ erotic dress up games, God knows why, and the media has always eaten that up.

I found Skyrim to be a lot mote "Conan-esque" with those mods. So there was at least sort of a point to them.

 

[Mebrilia]

I trust CDPR will handle things well. They did with The Witcher games. It's possibility of mod support that worries me. The Elder Scrolls games always end up being modded into sex simulators/ erotic dress up games, God knows why, and the media has always eaten that up.

i usually play skyrim with lore friendly mods.. and i dislike a lot skimpy stuff and anime stuff in skyrim.. however i have some adult mod like you mentioned just for the sake of immersion...

I use it to seduce people and bed them so i have the opportunity to steal some of their blood.... (i am a vampire character after all)

I am not offended by portralyal of sex nudity or adult contents in game... In bioware forum i had a discussion with some prude dude that thinks this thing are a juvinile actitude... Meh...

Sayd that in a game forum of a game that protray all the romance in a sort of liceal medieval date nonsense simulator (dragon age 2) maded me laugh a lot...

 

[Mikedudeh]

An interesting video on the history of fallout, which is riddled with bans and censorship.

[video=youtube;AMlf-KXVOsQ]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AMlf-KXVOsQ[/video]

 

[braindancer12]

An interesting video on the history of fallout, which is riddled with bans and censorship.

[video=youtube;AMlf-KXVOsQ]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AMlf-KXVOsQ[/video]

nice DYKG video are great

 

[Garrison72]

I trust CDPR will handle things well. They did with The Witcher games. It's possibility of mod support that worries me. The Elder Scrolls games always end up being modded into sex simulators/ erotic dress up games, God knows why, and the media has always eaten that up.

People are always going to do the nudie mods. So what. That shouldn't detract from the thousands of great mods out there.

 

[netra]

People are always going to do the nudie mods. So what. That shouldn't detract from the thousands of great mods out there.

Additionally the whole point of mods is customizing your game. If someone is making some big tits mod, what do you care? You don't have to install it. most modding sites have a adult tag by which you can filter those mods out and never have to see them even. fucking hell.

 

[Garrison72]

You misunderstand. I don't care that people do nudie mods nor do they offend me. I get tired of the suggestion that the only mods we get are nude mods, which is far from the truth.

 

[Mikedudeh]

@slimgrim and @Netra I don't care at all. I love mods. It's the conservative mothers and anti video game sociologists that care. I'm just saying if they do find something to piss about in this game it will probably be from mods because that's what's happened in the past (hence the elder scrolls mention) and because I trust CDPR to handle things appropriately. But I don't think we should ditch modding because of it, and I may not understand some mods but I'm not against them. Just to clarify.