Was CP too ambitious?

[Mobster100]

Honestly, the whole point of the story was that it was a wild goose chase in the beginning wasn't it? It was kind of an enormous RAIDERS OF THE LOST ARK storyline where Indy goes to elaborate lengths to rescue the Ark only to note that as a literal weapon of God, it was going to never be useful to the Nazis save as an oven they burned their hand on.

V could never save themselves so discovering they were never in danger is kind of their Kafka-esque karmic reward.

Yes, but there is a quite a huge differences in regard to being wrong about something like in Indiana Jones and then experiencing what V is. Then one would have to assume that all the characters etc. in the story weren't really there. Also there are a lot of information about people, corporations etc. insider knowledge that wouldn't really make sense. And would be impossible to reference in an expansion, because it weren't actually real. So almost all the stuff we learned is pointless in an expansion, because it was all just on the engram.

I mean, wouldn't Vic or Misty have told V, that these people were just playing them as a fool? Vic is the one that starts off telling V that there is nothing to be done and that V is going to die, then he is quite an asshole to do that to a friend

 

[CTPhipps]

Yes, but there is a quite a huge differences in regard to being wrong about something like in Indiana Jones and then experiencing what V is. Then one would have to assume that all the characters etc. in the story weren't really there. Also there are a lot of information about people, corporations etc. insider knowledge that wouldn't really make sense. And would be impossible to reference in an expansion, because it weren't actually real. So almost all the stuff we learned is pointless in an expansion, because it was all just on the engram.

I mean, wouldn't Vic or Misty have told V, that these people were just playing them as a fool? Vic is the one that starts off telling V that there is nothing to be done and that V is going to die, then he is quite an asshole to do that to a friend

Well V actually would die, they'd just get better. Which I point out is something that literally happens in the game already.

V is dead by Act I and gets resurrected by the chip.

 

[Ayinde_Palmer]

Yes, but there is a quite a huge differences in regard to being wrong about something like in Indiana Jones and then experiencing what V is. Then one would have to assume that all the characters etc. in the story weren't really there. Also there are a lot of information about people, corporations etc. insider knowledge that wouldn't really make sense. And would be impossible to reference in an expansion, because it weren't actually real. So almost all the stuff we learned is pointless in an expansion, because it was all just on the engram.

I mean, wouldn't Vic or Misty have told V, that these people were just playing them as a fool? Vic is the one that starts off telling V that there is nothing to be done and that V is going to die, then he is quite an asshole to do that to a friend

i don't think he is saying it was all a dream but rather that once V dies someone takes the chip out of their brain and experiments/creates a new body for V. And that the relic chip has their memories from a "past life"


also, Vic is guessing(educated/professional), he isn't speaking as the person with all the answers. In this story no one has all the answers about the relic. Every expert was at least somewhat wrong, that V consulted. Vic, Hellman, Alt

 

[LeKill3rFou]

V: I'm dead?

Doctor :
Biologically ? you're dead that's for sure !
Philosophically, religiously, computerly ? Maybe, maybe not... Who really know... not me, that's also for sure !
But I could said, if you ask, maybe you are not dead from your own point of view, isn't it ?
Anyway, I suppose that's a question for philosophers. You are, however, now our perfect test subject to reverse engineer the chip.

 

[lyin321]

Doctor :
Biologically ? you're dead that's for sure !
Philosophically, religiously, computerly ? Maybe, maybe not... Who really know... not me, that's also for sure !
But I could said, if you ask, maybe you are not dead from your own point of view, isn't it ?
Anyway, I suppose that's a question for philosophers. You are, however, now our perfect test subject to reverse engineer the chip.

Unfortunately, no vampires in this universe. Otherwise, they would have the answer
Actually don't they have fantasy books? V's new nickname 'the zombie'!

 

[LeKill3rFou]

V's new nickname 'the zombie'!

No, V nickname could be "Braindead"
(stopping now, i think we are already way to far off-topic...)

 

[Ayinde_Palmer]

I completely agree, I think CDPR wanted to make CP as they showed in that demo, obviously with minor changes here and there, but overall what they told and showed was their original intention. But something went wrong and it was not what we got. And im also fully behind expansions, as long as they make sense from a story perspective.

Maybe CDPR have a cool idea and these will be nothing like we think, time will tell.


Personally I don't really mind, if the demo was faked or not, or if what they said during all of those interviews weren't possible at the time, but were simply their ambitions for the game. But I do think that it forces them to deliver it then, otherwise I don't think its unfair to say that they were straight up lying or doing some very dodgy marketing. Because it is simply not ok, to sell a product based on wishful thinking.

And even if they deliver it, it was not a good move from them in general, but at least they did make what they said they would. But they shouldn't marketing or hype their products based on something that is not possible at launch.


Agree, NC is really cool.


Depending on where CDPR takes CP. I think they should have made a video or interview after the gameplay video and all the interviews, as the hype started to built to the extremes, where they came clean or what to say, really making people/fans know which things were actually possible, instead of trying to keep up the illusion and throw more fuel on the fire, so to speak. And I agree, they should have stuck to not giving a release date, but simply stuck to the "When its ready" people had already accepted this, the release date didn't do them anything good.


I think they underestimated the task, thinking that they could "easily" pull off a type of GTA, CP kind of game, including all the other genres that are mixed into it.

they did that, they explained everything and amended everything that changed before the game came out, multiple times.
The truth is the game is as they presented it. The people and media were the ones that had ambitious expectations and it didnt matter that Cdprojk told them otherwise.
1) they repeatedly said its not gtaV, that gtaV simulated world was great, but not what they were going for.
2)they said no trains, no wall running, no customized apartments, no customized cars, no mini robot
3)they showed the whole Pacifica mission from meeting placide to fighting sasquatch, like an additional 2-3 hours of gameplay.
4)they said the police system was essentially run a way, or die.
5)they said repeatedly life paths were background stories, different dialog options, and they would not limit your character's story

they never showed/claimed deep interactions with no name crowd npcs, they never showed/claimed sandbox/simulation elements.


I'm not saying this to attack you, but rather to make it clear they revealed a lot about the game, and cleared the record on almost everything people say they promised (they didnt) And, everyone should keep that in mind when they talk about how they might "fix" or "complete" the game going forward. The game systems, and overall product is as they planned it. They may improve things or add features, or continue to develop the game, but things people are expecting as part of delivering on a "promise" are unlikely since much of that was never a part of their plan/design.

realize the difference between player expectation, and developer ambition

 

[Mobster100]

they did that, they explained everything and amended everything that changed before the game came out, multiple times.

Well apparently they didn't manage this very well, compared to how they managed to make people believe these things. Exactly as they didn't really do a good job of letting people know that the game could hardly run on current gen consoles. I mean these things are important. They could have made a couple of Nightwire episodes, saying these things are not going to be in the game anyway. This is what you should expect.

The truth is the game is as they presented it.

It is not even close Graphic wise it is.

The people and media were the ones that had ambitious expectations and it didnt matter that Cdprojk told them otherwise.

No, a lot of these information where giving to the media as they asked them questions in interviews etc. What is a media person to do, if that is what they are being told? Simply say..."Well CDPR told us this, but honestly don't expect anything like it. Because I don't really believe what they are saying" What type of interview would that be?

1) they repeatedly said its not gtaV, that gtaV simulated world was great, but not what they were going for.

But it is very much like GTA. Yes it has it own spin, but if someone asked you what CP was like and they knew nothing about it. It wouldn't be wrong, to say that its a lot like GTA, but with a bit more RPG elements to it. Remember you can play GTA in FP as well.

2)they said no trains, no wall running, no customized apartments, no customized cars, no mini robot

Look even in the game they refer to your stash being accessible from all your apartments and cars, when you read the stash info, they might have removed that now.

And again, they did a poor job of clarifying what would not be in the game anymore. Even one the devs in one of the interviews from 2020, I think it was, and is linked above, if I recall correctly. Mention that you can be what you want and refer to the use of the flathead as a combat thing. But we know that is not possible.

3)they showed the whole Pacifica mission from meeting placide to fighting sasquatch, like an additional 2-3 hours of gameplay.

Yes, they shown and highlighted the only two missions where you have some sort of branching as if this were the general idea behind the quests. And its pretty much only the first one, that have a real integration in the game later on. 95% of the quests, it doesn't matter.

4)they said the police system was essentially run a way, or die.

Yes and it is, but it is a poorly integrated system. They might as well have removed the police all together and made it so you got a timer on screen saying you have 15 seconds to leave the crime scene before the police arrive and if you don't you just instant die. It would be the exact same.

5)they said repeatedly life paths were background stories, different dialog options, and they would not limit your character's story

Again, one of the devs, said that he could talk 50 minutes about how deep this runs through the game, and the fact is that it doesn't. It have no impact at all, there is nothing to talk about.

they never showed/claimed deep interactions with no name crowd npcs, they never showed/claimed sandbox/simulation elements.

That is true, I also don't think anyone thought that it would be possible.

 

[LeKill3rFou]

It is not even close Graphic wise it is.

You talk about this kind of gameplay video ?
(3th September 2019)
That seem pretty close for me

You can note the little text on top of the video as well

 

[EngryEngineer]

Maybe that was the issue, they marketed their ambitions as if they were true rather than the actual game.

I think so, it is just my opinion, I can't guarantee it or anything, but here's my reasoning.

This game's campaign was a strange experiment for sure. In some ways they increased transparency, but in others either kept it the same or made it more opaque.

I am sure certain things were meant as teasers, like the 2013 trailer and various vague statements either saying the idea of a feature or alluding to one. But following those with silence, changing the subject, or weird social media team coyness just allowed speculation to grow. The more these teaser sparked hopes evolved the more certain fans would become.

Based on how I've seen software development projects I've been involved in get received, I think Cyberpunk 2077 either needed much more or much less communication. Either give nearly overwhelming transparency so people know what to expect & when/how to change those expectations, or say only what is absolutely certain, trying to sit on that fence is almost certain to result in disaster.

 

[Ayinde_Palmer]

Well apparently they didn't manage this very well, compared to how they managed to make people believe these things. Exactly as they didn't really do a good job of letting people know that the game could hardly run on current gen consoles. I mean these things are important. They could have made a couple of Nightwire episodes, saying these things are not going to be in the game anyway. This is what you should expect.


It is not even close Graphic wise it is.


No, a lot of these information where giving to the media as they asked them questions in interviews etc. What is a media person to do, if that is what they are being told? Simply say..."Well CDPR told us this, but honestly don't expect anything like it. Because I don't really believe what they are saying" What type of interview would that be?


But it is very much like GTA. Yes it has it own spin, but if someone asked you what CP was like and they knew nothing about it. It wouldn't be wrong, to say that its a lot like GTA, but with a bit more RPG elements to it. Remember you can play GTA in FP as well.


Look even in the game they refer to your stash being accessible from all your apartments and cars, when you read the stash info, they might have removed that now.

And again, they did a poor job of clarifying what would not be in the game anymore. Even one the devs in one of the interviews from 2020, I think it was, and is linked above, if I recall correctly. Mention that you can be what you want and refer to the use of the flathead as a combat thing. But we know that is not possible.


Yes, they shown and highlighted the only two missions where you have some sort of branching as if this were the general idea behind the quests. And its pretty much only the first one, that have a real integration in the game later on. 95% of the quests, it doesn't matter.


Yes and it is, but it is a poorly integrated system. They might as well have removed the police all together and made it so you got a timer on screen saying you have 15 seconds to leave the crime scene before the police arrive and if you don't you just instant die. It would be the exact same.


Again, one of the devs, said that he could talk 50 minutes about how deep this runs through the game, and the fact is that it doesn't. It have no impact at all, there is nothing to talk about.


That is true, I also don't think anyone thought that it would be possible.

in the other thread, I linked the articles where they specifically told people what was in the game and what wasn't, they clarified misunderstandings, they told people not to expect certain things. Its all out there.

And don't mistake you not feeling a certain way about a feature with some one else's prrspective. The dev can talk for hours about the depth of the game, he is literally doing that now. 3-5 hour streams every Sunday the the devs talk about the game, its probably been like 4-5 weeks by now. Your personal opinion is that it lacks depth, but that is just your opinion.


https://www.reddit.com/r/cyberpunkgame/comments/kevysz


There is choice, consequences, and variation all over the game, its just not the choices/consequences you were looking for.

Post automatically merged: Jul 21, 2021

I think so, it is just my opinion, I can't guarantee it or anything, but here's my reasoning.

This game's campaign was a strange experiment for sure. In some ways they increased transparency, but in others either kept it the same or made it more opaque.

I am sure certain things were meant as teasers, like the 2013 trailer and various vague statements either saying the idea of a feature or alluding to one. But following those with silence, changing the subject, or weird social media team coyness just allowed speculation to grow. The more these teaser sparked hopes evolved the more certain fans would become.

Based on how I've seen software development projects I've been involved in get received, I think Cyberpunk 2077 either needed much more or much less communication. Either give nearly overwhelming transparency so people know what to expect & when/how to change those expectations, or say only what is absolutely certain, trying to sit on that fence is almost certain to result in disaster.

they actually weren't silent or coy about these things, they told people. But its very hard to change someone's perspective once its established. Because there is always a lot of interpretation in communication. Like if someone believes their mother Hates them, clean your room means something different. If you believe that there will be car customization, videos you see with cars, or garages, or an npc fixing a car is confirmation. The fact all of those garages were shown in narrative form, and showed no options for customization is brushed off. They say there will be a lot to do outside of main quests means open world sandbox content if you already thought it was a sandbox game, even if the overall article is about quest design and narrative.

People's minds are very hard to change even with hard data, once they accept a certain thing as the truth.

 

[EngryEngineer]

in the other thread, I linked the articles where they specifically told people what was in the game and what wasn't, they clarified misunderstandings, they told people not to expect certain things. Its all out there.

And don't mistake you not feeling a certain way about a feature with some one else's prrspective. The dev can talk for hours about the depth of the game, he is literally doing that now. 3-5 hour streams every Sunday the the devs talk about the game, its probably been like 4-5 weeks by now. Your personal opinion is that it lacks depth, but that is just your opinion.


https://www.reddit.com/r/cyberpunkgame/comments/kevysz


There is choice, consequences, and variation all over the game, its just not the choices/consequences you were looking for.

Post automatically merged: Jul 21, 2021

they actually weren't silent or coy about these things, they told people. But its very hard to change someone's perspective once its established. Because there is always a lot of interpretation in communication. Like if someone believes their mother Hates them, clean your room means something different. If you believe that there will be car customization, videos you see with cars, or garages, or an npc fixing a car is confirmation. The fact all of those garages were shown in narrative form, and showed no options for customization is brushed off. They say there will be a lot to do outside of main quests means open world sandbox content if you already thought it was a sandbox game, even if the overall article is about quest design and narrative.

People's minds are very hard to change even with hard data, once they accept a certain thing as the truth.

lol I guess when people lost their minds at a tweet of *beep* it wasn't because CDPR had spent about 5 years not saying anything while speculation ran rampant

Then there's stuff like this from a thread aggregating official developer responses which sprang up specifically because all of the communication had been so confusing and varied:

>\Is Netrunning in the game? Is it a big part of the gameplay?

August 21/18 Kyle Rowley: "Assassinating people and controlling devices by remote...Netrunning is a core pillar of our gameplay."

June 23/19 Lilayah: "You can use nano-wire to hack people from a distance. You can also hack hardware ports to tap into hardware and other people. The eyes during netrunning is a cool effect. Your body turns into a giant CPU, hence the icebath. You can also see people who netrun"


>\Are there mini games?

June 2019 Lilayah: "Hacking for sure, and we have other activities in mind. Streetracing! Visiting a shooting range to level up your shooting skills. We'll surprise you! "

Some of this is sort of true, but a lot of it is absolutely not. There is a lot of this like Alivn Liu talking about acid rain and NPC's scattering or talking about how crimes will need to be witnessed and reported then cops wouldn't just show up out of nowhere.

There are a host of things that were described, alluded to, or even shown in the preview that the people on these forums who were seeking out and gathering all the official responses regarding anything that never got a, "you know what, we aren't doing that anymore." Some of it was like the subway, only having 1 appartment, they finally said that car customization wasn't a thing shortly before release in a night city wire, but even then they kind of oversold the car variants, interior view, and cosmetic differences.

I don't actually care these features aren't in the game, plans change. I think that the game we got was fine, the buggy state was unexpected but tolerable (at least on PC early on, my friends playing it now are having much worse problems than I did at release idk), the story was fantastic, gameplay was fun and fairly tight. Looking through these forums and how many features who's very existence let alone theoretical implementation were hotly debated even in 2020 largely sparked by vague interview statements or questions publicly answered over social media with a smirk and a shrug. I am glad that communication seems to have improved since release, but claiming everything was absolutely clear before drop date is just patently revisionist.

 

[CTPhipps]

I have the weird view that I kind of wish they hadn't been so ambitious and stuck more with what was already proven:

* Give V a Akira motorcycle rather than a hundred cars.
* Have all of the crowds precreated for day and night cycles hanging around.
* Divide the districts and larger into different places on the map you travel to and load separately.
* Make V a primarily Mantis blade fighter with a shotgun and hacks.

If they'd not had to overhaul everything they did, how much more story and content could they have put in?

 

[LeKill3rFou]

Make V a primarily Mantis blade fighter with a shotgun and hacks.

If V would have been "confined" in this build, that would have been very bad
(for me at least)

 

[CTPhipps]

If V would have been "confined" in this build, that would have been very bad
(for me at least)

Possibly,

Mind you, I wish they had ditched the whole, "Armoring up by stealing the pants off a man you shot in the head" element from W3.

 

[Didacgomez]

I have the weird view that I kind of wish they hadn't been so ambitious and stuck more with what was already proven:

* Give V a Akira motorcycle rather than a hundred cars.
* Have all of the crowds precreated for day and night cycles hanging around.
* Divide the districts and larger into different places on the map you travel to and load separately.
* Make V a primarily Mantis blade fighter with a shotgun and hacks.

If they'd not had to overhaul everything they did, how much more story and content could they have put in?

Don't agree with the pre-build and vehicle,its too limiting
But I was thinking that I'm under the impression that the Cyberpunk IP would have benefitted from two different RPGs: one as CP2077 and another with isometric,party based and more faithful implementation of tabletop mechanics (kind of Shadowrun,but not hub based),this possibly makes easier implementation of archetypes and more story branching.
I think that this kind of game, would have not appealed that many people but for sure has its own crowd(and some people might be overlapping),maybe licensed to another studio who feels more comfortable with that.

 

[OdiousMortem]

Well, bugs and tech issues aside, the best art always over-reaches; it's usually not until years later it gets understood what it is.

So was CP77 too ambitious, no, definitely not. I just want more content.

 

[CTPhipps]

Don't agree with the pre-build and vehicle,its too limiting
But I was thinking that I'm under the impression that the Cyberpunk IP would have benefitted from two different RPGs: one as CP2077 and another with isometric,party based and more faithful implementation of tabletop mechanics (kind of Shadowrun,but not hub based),this possibly makes easier implementation of archetypes and more story branching.
I think that this kind of game, would have not appealed that many people but for sure has its own crowd(and some people might be overlapping),maybe licensed to another studio who feels more comfortable with that.

I admit I hate isometric RPGs and it keeps me from trying to play Shadowrun as much as I love cyberpunk. Mostly my problem with Cyberpunk 2077 is it feels too much like Fallout 4.

I love Fallout but it feels like whatever you say or do in the game is immaterial and there's a lot deeper they could have gone with the story and roleplaying.

 

[Mybrokenenglish]

then they might say that they learned a lot from CP and have done a lot of changes

They also said they had learned from Witcher 3 not to develop games for pc and just at the end scale it down for consoles but we know how it went. Do people still buy CDPR's marketing? How can people trust them after all that happened?

 

[lyin321]

They also said they had learned from Witcher 3 not to develop games for pc and just at the end scale it down for consoles but we know how it went. Do people still buy CDPR's marketing? How can people trust them after all that happened?

Funny that this is a question a quest in CP ask you...and I guess a lot of people continued to have faith in Johny, even tho he straight up lied/disappointed us