[Spoiler Alert] About the endings

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Do you want more RPGs with happy endings?


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I'm not left with impression that Soulkiller is some defective product that can't do the advertised copying job.
Equally i don't see how AI Alt can know for a fact that something like a soul which is completely intangible/unmeasurable is lost in the process.
May just be the internal logic that she is built upon.
Like in my previous post, you can choose to not believe her/it. Honestly, I don't really believe Alt to be the most trustworthy (although she has no reason to lie) and probably not the best place to talk about this.
For other characters, there is no problem with that. Like Goro, Johnny or even Saburo who intentionally used the Soulkiller on him (Proof that he thinks it is safe and that he loses nothing).
 
Well, I think it's implied V accepts the risks based on the previous decision to pursue it.
My problem isn't with the fact that Alt uses Soulkiller immediately; if anything, I think it's weird that V brings up that it was nonconsensual when that was the entire point of the trip. My problem is that this is really ALL they say about Soulkiller. You can say they don't go deeper in order to maintain some kind of mystery about what the exact consequences are, but they aren't even reinforced. Alt doesn't ominously refer to anything she talked about during the first meeting. The only apparent consequence is the six month life span, and that isn't even related to Alt's initial warning, it was just a fuck up on her part.

An extension of that problem is that the game doesn't actually LET you take Alt's warnings seriously. You always have Johnny whispering in your ear about how bad of a choice it would be to work with Arasaka, but you can never mention Alt's warnings as a counterpoint. It's like the entire conversation at the blackwall didn't happen once you leave. Nothing she says ends up mattering in any tangible way, unless they have some kind of sequel or DLC planned where the shitty twist is whatever Soulkiller's side effects are.
 
My problem isn't with the fact that Alt uses Soulkiller immediately; if anything, I think it's weird that V brings up that it was nonconsensual when that was the entire point of the trip. My problem is that this is really ALL they say about Soulkiller. You can say they don't go deeper in order to maintain some kind of mystery about what the exact consequences are, but they aren't even reinforced. Alt doesn't ominously refer to anything she talked about during the first meeting. The only apparent consequence is the six month life span, and that isn't even related to Alt's initial warning, it was just a fuck up on her part.

An extension of that problem is that the game doesn't actually LET you take Alt's warnings seriously. You always have Johnny whispering in your ear about how bad of a choice it would be to work with Arasaka, but you can never mention Alt's warnings as a counterpoint. It's like the entire conversation at the blackwall didn't happen once you leave. Nothing she says ends up mattering in any tangible way, unless they have some kind of sequel or DLC planned where the shitty twist is whatever Soulkiller's side effects are.
Or unless you play one of the other endings!
 
She doesn't outright say that Soulkiller produces a copy, but it's weird that V doesn't ask for clarifications after hearing that it "changes everything" and "does exactly what it promises to do".
It could mean anything from "being an engram detached from a body will change you so much that you'll essentially be a different entity and won't feel human" to "your original consciousness will die but you're too dense to realize it lol".

Since Cyberpunk 2020 has themes of spirituality and technology, she may also be literally saying, "The soul is real and it will destroy it." Johnny even kind of goes, "Yeah, yeah, ignore Alt's crazy woman talk" about that. Which is a very Johnny thing to do.

Mind you, siding with Arasaka that is passionately devoted to Soulkiller and using it to make vampire immortality seems like a weird pursuit from that conversation too.

I'm not left with impression that Soulkiller is some defective product that can't do the advertised copying job.
Equally i don't see how AI Alt can know for a fact that something like a soul which is completely intangible/unmeasurable is lost in the process.
May just be the internal logic that she is built upon.

I mean, she is literally one of the smartest beings in the universe and one of pure consciousness. If the soul actually exists and is measurable then it would be the AI who discover it.

That's stretching the definition but I admit part of this is due to the fact 80s Cyberpunk very often mixed religious themes with technology as the Singularity is depicted as a defining moment of spirituality. Cyberpunk 2077 incorpoates some of this with the Tarot and Buddhist quests plus Sinnerman. Technology has become so advanced that the only way to relate to it is a worshiper to a god and the secrets of the cosmos come to those who can understand it.

Which is why the Matrix makes use of so much of it.

Or to simplify, "Technology becomes so advanced that it using it becomes indistinguishable from religion." Praise the Techpriests of Mars.
 
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I'm not left with impression that Soulkiller is some defective product that can't do the advertised copying job.
Equally i don't see how AI Alt can know for a fact that something like a soul which is completely intangible/unmeasurable is lost in the process.
May just be the internal logic that she is built upon.

its not defective, its a very difficult process. The relic shards/email suggest that they measure how much data is lost, and how similar their responses are. I forget the numbers, but they have a higher requirement for volition than memory.

long story short, some memory is lost, but how the engram responds is very close. And also, the technology is not perfect, they have improved it a bit, and its possible alt improved her version, but yes its not yet a perfect transfer, even by its own measurements.

Its also important to know that alt was initially focused on transfer and return for net running, and eventually to clone bodies. The soulkiller version, when it kills the host and captures the contents of their mind to a computer wasn't her intent.
 
Its also important to know that alt was initially focused on transfer and return for net running, and eventually to clone bodies. The soulkiller version, when it kills the host and captures the contents of their mind to a computer wasn't her intent.

A thing that only a tabletop gamer would note, the Johnny Silverhand rescue is actually an adaptation of a tabletop module of Cyberpunk 2020.

One of the things is that Alt Cunningham dives into the net and only dies because Johnny severs the link between her body and mind.

Alt and Rache Bartmoss could astral project into cyberspace, so to speak.
 
A thing that only a tabletop gamer would note, the Johnny Silverhand rescue is actually an adaptation of a tabletop module of Cyberpunk 2020.

One of the things is that Alt Cunningham dives into the net and only dies because Johnny severs the link between her body and mind.

Alt and Rache Bartmoss could astral project into cyberspace, so to speak.

well, I dunno about rache, but alt needed wires, so its not exactly Astral projection. But yeah, Her breakthrough allowed the netrunner to actually be in the net, then return to the body with knowledge after achieving their goal. Regular netrunners would die from feedback if things went badly.


but yeah the Astral projection analogy is interesting.
 
after six months there are still three type of person:

1) the one who believes that V is Dead
2) the one who believes V is dying (true fact) but in the two dlc we'll se a new outcomes
3)the one who believes this game is Soma lol

Choose one
 
after six months there are still three type of person:

1) the one who believes that V is Dead
2) the one who believes V is dying (true fact) but in the two dlc we'll se a new outcomes
3)the one who believes this game is Soma lol

Choose one

I believe V is going to survive because Misty said that they'll live in Nomad.
 
after six months there are still three type of person:

1) the one who believes that V is Dead
2) the one who believes V is dying (true fact) but in the two dlc we'll se a new outcomes
3)the one who believes this game is Soma lol

Choose one
V is dead the moment Dex shoots him/her in the head. If not, the relic would have stayed dormant.
V continues to die, a second time, as the nanites are restructuring his/her brain. If one considers slow and steady loss of faculties and memory living.

Mistys "great life" does not include prolonged life past the possible six months, nor does Panam's wishful thinking.

Oh, and by the way. Descartes was wrong. The body and soul are not separable...
 
Oh, and by the way. Descartes was wrong. The body and soul are not separable...
Scientific explanation about that ? Or personal opinion ?
Because who know, not me and probably not Descartes indeed :)
Mistys "great life" does not include prolonged life past the possible six months, nor does Panam's wishful thinking.
Yeah, great 6 months life could be true and better than 100 years of sad as hell life :)
(matter of tastes, obviously)
 
I'm not left with impression that Soulkiller is some defective product that can't do the advertised copying job.
Equally i don't see how AI Alt can know for a fact that something like a soul which is completely intangible/unmeasurable is lost in the process.
May just be the internal logic that she is built upon.

I wonder how many are forgetting that Alt CREATED the soulkiller. Also, she went thru the process. If there is someone who knows about its effects, its her.

My issue however is not what happens in the story. My issue is the story itself the way devs wrote it. This is not what I wanted to see after waiting 6 years.
 
Oh, and by the way. Descartes was wrong. The body and soul are not separable...

Depends on your view of consciousness as there's a good claim that consciousness as we define it isn't human based but cultural. The Engrams further muddle the picture as they are an amoeba-esque budding of yourself from yourself and the Engram has ever bit as valid a claim to being the "real" you as you do.

If you're looking for immortality, you're just as likely to be "you" as the engram as the body that is also you.

I wonder how many are forgetting that Alt CREATED the soulkiller. Also, she went thru the process. If there is someone who knows about its effects, its her.

My issue however is not what happens in the story. My issue is the story itself the way devs wrote it. This is not what I wanted to see after waiting 6 years.

I mean, Cyberpunk 2020 is a gameworld that doesn't discount the supernatural. It's entirely possible you can talk to a Blackwall AI and they'll explain, "Oh yeah, I discovered God and the afterlife last month. Turns out they abandoned humanity ages ago for Proxima Centauri." They are transcendent advanced beings as far above us as we are above ants.

If a soul could be discovered and is real or not, they know for sure.
 
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Scientific explanation about that ? Or personal opinion ?
Because who know, not me and probably not Descartes indeed :)

Yeah, great 6 months life could be true and better than 100 years of sad as hell life :)
(matter of tastes, obviously)
Oh, that's science. But since my experience of this forum is that neither science nor logic seems in high esteem, I'll refrain from going too deep into this subject here. In short: Descartes did not have access to the medical equipment used today. If he had, he probably would have come to the same conclusion. (This is not a statement about the existence of a soul, nor what happens at or after the time of death, it's about the inseparability of body and soul).

Yes, but the goal of a game (usually anyway) is to beat it and at "the end" (conclusion if you will) is where the player and MC goes separate ways. In this game the story is inconclusive and the player loses agency well before that.

Depends on your view of consciousness as there's a good claim that consciousness as we define it isn't human based but cultural. The Engrams further muddle the picture as they are an amoeba-esque budding of yourself from yourself and the Engram has ever bit as valid a claim to being the "real" you as you do.

If you're looking for immortality, you're just as likely to be "you" as the engram as the body that is also you.



I mean, Cyberpunk 2020 is a gameworld that doesn't discount the supernatural. It's entirely possible you can talk to a Blackwall AI and they'll explain, "Oh yeah, I discovered God and the afterlife last month. Turns out they abandoned humanity ages ago for Proxima Centauri." They are transcendent advanced beings as far above us as we are above ants.

If a soul could be discovered and is real or not, they know for sure.
I'm not discussing consciousness, nor self awareness, but soul and its inseparability from the body. The brain is not only a set of neurological pathways but also integral with an endocrinal system working in conjunction.

The supernatural still needs rules and the game uses several sets of rules depending on unknown requirements (the relic grants Johnny a new body but does not let V re-inhabit his/her own), which is quite distasteful.

Science is what we can prove, believing or wanting, it is not.
 
I'm not discussing consciousness, nor self awareness, but soul and its inseparability from the body. The brain is not only a set of neurological pathways but also integral with an endocrinal system working in conjunction.

The supernatural still needs rules and the game uses several sets of rules depending on unknown requirements (the relic grants Johnny a new body but does not let V re-inhabit his/her own), which is quite distasteful.

Science is what we can prove, believing or wanting, it is not.

Yes, I'm pointing out that is absolutely incorrect in Cyberpunk 2077. The consciousness of the body is irrelevant once copied to an Engram and transferring effectively makes "you" wake up in a new body. Whether you believe in the supernatural or not, its irrelevant because the mind is separate from the soul via technology in this setting via brain uploading/copying.

Because as I mentioned, both Engram V and Bio V have an equal claim to being the original V.

Neurogensis in the brain means that essentially you are a "new" person every day.
 
Yes, I'm pointing out that is absolutely incorrect in Cyberpunk 2077. The consciousness of the body is irrelevant once copied to an Engram and transferring effectively makes "you" wake up in a new body. Whether you believe in the supernatural or not, its irrelevant because the mind is separate from the soul via technology in this setting via brain uploading/copying.

Because as I mentioned, both Engram V and Bio V have an equal claim to being the original V.

Neurogensis in the brain means that essentially you are a "new" person every day.
Well, then we are somewhat in accord. (y)

Except:
If you want to claim that the copy (engram) has equal rights to the body, then the engram needs to be a perfect copy i.e. with a body of it's own...

And, the engram could not claim equal rights since it starts to vary from the original at the moment of its conception, even as the original varies.
 
Well, then we are somewhat in accord. (y)

Except:
If you want to claim that the copy (engram) has equal rights to the body, then the engram needs to be a perfect copy i.e. with a body of it's own...

And, the engram could not claim equal rights since it starts to vary from the original at the moment of its conception, even as the original varies.

Ehhhh....

1. Except the Engram has a body in the cyberworld while the meat body doesn't and needs equipment to live there. They have a separate living existence beyond meatspace.

2. The original has budded into two beings. It is dead the moment the Engram departs it and two new beings exist. Meat V has no more claim to be the original than Engram V.

3. It's not really a matter for Engram V because I'm pretty sure that the Meat V is dead after Engram V is created. He/she is only resurrected when Alt puts the Engram back in the body.
 
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