no, actually its not about finding a cure, because you don't find one.
also, connecting character motivation with the point of a story often doesn't work. Its very common in a story for a characters motivation to change, or lead them to unexpected places. Or their motivation leads the overall story to an unforseen conclusionn/theme
its also not true that the side stories are about survival, most of the side stories illustrate various character's meaning of life, which V can resonate with, or not.
Kerry's life is meaningless without art
panam easily risks her life for family
Judy risks her life for ideals
river prioritizes justice over their own life
sinnerman chooses faith
Jackie prioritized success/fame
delamain's subconscious will destroy him if he doesn't evolve
Johnny thinks his life should have been more focused on friendship
dex straight up tells you the theme of the game is the meaning or purpose of life.
this does tie into survival, at the barest minimum the story is a quest for survival, but the story in its totality suggests the only way to get a better ending is not to only make it about survival.
basically the story is the human struggle.
you struggle to survive, and eventually you will fail, and then what determines its value is how you lived and what was important to you. I will note V's struggle may not be over.
That's like saying that the Legend of Zelda isn't about rescuing Zelda if you find out she's dead in the final act. It's a shocking twist but it's still the motivation.
That's quoted a lot but I got another one (Bartmoss Collective quest, paraphrased):
Johnny: Maybe the final message was something along the lines of "the journey is more important than the destination"
V: That sounds like horse shit
Johnny: We finally agree on something
But in this case, V can also said :
"It's probably true"
Like : "a happy short life could be better than a log sad life" or "it's totally stupid as reasoning.
There are plenty of dialogues lines a little bit linked
Johnny during "Gig: Serious Side Effects" about Booker : "A peaceful death in Night City ! Damn, this guy is a big lucky guy"
V during "Happy Together" about Andrew : "Dead of old age in Night City ? We should erect a monument to him, everyone would come and see that"
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its up to each player to decide what the focus, and purpose of the game is, it depends how you play, and between all the characters almost every viewpoint exists.
its also true that at the end of that quest, it turns out the there was no real purpose at all, and Johnny loved that result more than anything. So, its still not an example of the most important thing being the end result.
Sure, just as a single downer quote from Johnny doesn't imply that there is objectively no way for questionable people in NC to come out on top in a specific situation
I goes to the heroes journey, in the end, is it the world that has changed, or hero?
Game uses these unreliable narrators to present things, but I think they are there to make things possible for players, reflect different things.
Say Alt, if V asks about what to do, Alt says V should come with it and talks about people drive to survive. V may take that path, but it's also perfectly valid way to reject that offer. V may reject that on various reasons too and one of them is sex really. CDPR got something with their AI's right, they do not appear to reproduce. They can create other AI's, say perhaps Alt created the Blackwall, but nothing indicates that Blackwall is sapient AI and to fulfill its purpose AFAIK there's no reason for it to be.
Digital beings in their domain are practically immortal. There's no need to reproduce or have more of AI's but to serve certain function. There's only more of them as particular being, like Alt absorbs captives from Mikoshi. It's interesting detail though, why Alt does even do that and if that tells something or not.
Anyway, where this puts V is that V may think that what kind of life is that really? We are biological beings, our emotions are driven by our hormones, our emotions are big part of what makes us, us. What that would be in digital domain? Simulation, if so for what purpose?
So sexuality, there's literally a phrase in obituary notices at least in English speaking world: "survived by..." and then list children, spouse. That brings us to death, subject that is simple and difficult at the same time. People die in geriatric wards, hospital beds, have a heart attack while jogging, people die premature deaths for myriads of reasons, only thing is certain, everybody goes at some point, that is simple. Human tendency to build some sort of value ladders about anything, think their values as universal, that makes things complicated, difficult to discuss. I'm not medical professional but for certain reasons I can tell from experience that sometimes people spent their last moments with their spouse or children, last words might be "hold my hand", or something like that. Then people die alone, demented and their ability to recognize anyone long gone.
Sexuality, let's say how it's perceived is not universal but to the point. Polarizing, for some it might be like mere act of having sex, for some, absolutely not only in context of death like in what I wrote above things like "hold my hand" are there too. Game appears to acknowledge that.
Game uses these unreliable narrators to present things, but I think they are there to make things possible for players, reflect different things.
Say Alt, if V asks about what to do, Alt says V should come with it and talks about people drive to survive. V may take that path, but it's also perfectly valid way to reject that offer. V may reject that on various reasons too and one of them is sex really. CDPR got something with their AI's right, they do not appear to reproduce. They can create other AI's, say perhaps Alt created the Blackwall, but nothing indicates that Blackwall is sapient AI and to fulfill its purpose AFAIK there's no reason for it to be.
Digital beings in their domain are practically immortal. There's no need to reproduce or have more of AI's but to serve certain function. There's only more of them as particular being, like Alt absorbs captives from Mikoshi. It's interesting detail though, why Alt does even do that and if that tells something or not.
Anyway, where this puts V is that V may think that what kind of life is that really? We are biological beings, our emotions are driven by our hormones, our emotions are big part of what makes us, us. What that would be in digital domain? Simulation, if so for what purpose?
So sexuality, there's literally a phrase in obituary notices at least in English speaking world: "survived by..." and then list children, spouse. That brings us to death, subject that is simple and difficult at the same time. People die in geriatric wards, hospital beds, have a heart attack while jogging, people die premature deaths for myriads of reasons, only thing is certain, everybody goes at some point, that is simple. Human tendency to build some sort of value ladders about anything, think their values as universal, that makes things complicated, difficult to discuss. I'm not medical professional but for certain reasons I can tell from experience that sometimes people spent their last moments with their spouse or children, last words might be "hold my hand", or something like that. Then people die alone, demented and their ability to recognize anyone long gone.
Sexuality, let's say how it's perceived is not universal but to the point. Polarizing, for some it might be like mere act of having sex, for some, absolutely not only in context of death like in what I wrote above things like "hold my hand" are there too. Game appears to acknowledge that.
I didn't meant to imply that AI's needs humans to reproduce. I'm not sure where you get that. I wrote they don't have any need to reproduce. Anyway, and Alt is example who keeps adding to itself, as immortal being has no need for offsprings and so, sex.
My understanding about Delamain is that whatever occurs there, results of fragmentation, it's not something Delamain planned and depending how V fixes the situation Delamain's decision are rationalizations based on that. Say hardware and software is still there, no reason to destroy it, even if it's nothing useful for Delamain anymore.
I really like the game but there are weird things. Say V destroys Delamain, how is Delamain there in the Sun ending? What is relevant to Alt and endings, is Delamains ascension, as it's something that would make sense for an AI, instead of having offsprings.
One could make couple of guesses based on Delamain, but honestly, that sort of thing isn't something that I'm that invested and this isn't a topic for that anyway.
What I find interesting is that ending choices take in account many things and has sparked conversations, arguments, that actually creates some sort of connection between post-modern bubbles and to achieve, writing needs to be to humanity that is, not what we wish it were. Using AI's like this, quite a few things Hollywood and game industry turns to cheese but CDPR made something intellectual despite having arsenal for entire cheese factory there. Hate or like that then, it's not something I don't feel like I'm interested being involved at the moment.
Technically, I don't know if we can say "immortal", because she said V could "die" behind the black wall (it's not a sanctuary). Alt maybe not, but it's just because she's really "powerful".
But more than to reproduce themself, a "save copy", would probably be sufficient. If you don't need anyone to "survive" in the event of "death" (weird to said that), you don't need any form of interraction with other AIs.
Well it's relevant because while the fragmentation is one way Delamain can reproduce, he creates a child in the "Combine all of them back into Delamain" Golden Ending too.
And if you kill Delamain, he has a Fragment that's basically, "Old Delamain but one car."
I meant Alt who was able to survive the transition and who has become, whatever sapient being, but with not human and AI's specifically created there, I referenced Blackwall. But I think you got it right, importance to ending and choices V make is that player has information and each path, there are lot of breadcrumbs to follow that can be useful to weight different choices there.
I don't know what discussions you are having but I never wrote that they can't. I wrote that Alt created the Blackwall, so they can create things, it's just it's meaningless for them to reproduce. Delamain, you call this thing "child" that is your perspective, while for Delamain it may be just old copy, why waste all that is there, he never calls it that way, he just says he left you a friend, that's what I wrote about.
But these details relevancy to topic, it's like I don't know if you know Heidegger and Sartre but let's say, there's a rock, and then it's a choice, though it may appear absurd, if eat that, or eat bread. And I suppose it would be possible to study it like "maybe there's some fungus on that rock, even microbes living inside of that rock, that could have nutritional value..." but it's nothing I want to get involved with.
Back in the day I read the Neuromance by Gibson, it was already technically outdated, but there was something else and I started to find out about economics, social-economics, domestic first, but it had nothing to do with fiction anymore. Fiction can be a nice distraction and it doesn't always even be anything but that. Then sometimes fiction can also give us concepts, it can present scenarios, it can ask questions that are relevant to real world and that is not uncommon at all, that things like that are measure for some people that separates great fiction from the rest.
I guess it could be possible to have long conversation about how Mantis Blades work and details of Delamain, which in the end is fake entity, in fake world and write 20 page study of that and check if in big picture that would change anything. I'm not just that person. I see I have been unable to explain this and I really don't mean to offed you or anyone, but to be clear, that's the side of things I really don't give a fuck.
But say these fake things, in context of story they can illustrate something about us, homo sapiens and the better we understand ourselves, better chance we have to make decision regarding our future and one day perhaps real AI.
No disrespect, but I'm done with this.
Nope, Delamain really said :
"I would not turn away from my obligations, I leave you my first true child, while I go to explore, to travel, to learn"
But in the end, in "the mouth" of an AI, we don't really know what that really means
Okay, I totally forgot that and that's something I'm going to address, but yes and yes.Nope, Delamain really said :
"I would not turn away from my obligations, I leave you my first true child, while I go to explore, to travel, to learn"
But in the end, in "the mouth" of an AI, we don't really know what that really means
Some background, in the cyberpunk literature authors made AI's banks, hotels and things like that because they were aware of progress in technology happening during the 80's and that it will set us on path to perhaps create an AI that is self aware. It was months ago but I wrote about that to suggestions forums: What to do with the NET and AI's?
Delamain has for me been one of the weakest links in the game. It tries to be a nod to genre trope and works similar manner, introduces AI to players, present scenario where co-exists with humans, consequences (if V reads the emails at HQ), comic relief (that I think game needs), and ultimately presents how AI's goals can be very different from humans. And it can be IMO easily argued that it achieves multiple goals while not being production heavy, as there are no full human models that needs to be motion captured and animated, Delamain HQ is visited multiple times and besides that there are no new location, so I can see it's something easy to greelit, as it looks quite good on paper.
I guess technically Delamain story line achieves all those goals but it Delamain itself was bit all over the place and dialogue like "... first true child..." that implies that it's planning for more, isn't helping. That this "child" is practically backup copy of old Delamain helps a bit but doesn't help that overall it looks bit inconsistent with AI research and say on topic of immortality, you create more copies, then these copies are bound to compete from same resources and in genre, exploration of that via transhumanism we solve death, but then that that will introduce new problems and that side is very well explored in game via the Devil / Arasaka ending where one aspect, Saburo being obsessed on revenge over events of WW2, is easy to reflect on something like North Korea, hopes for change rely future generations and chance for change for the better because at least some point even dictators die. While that doesn't guarantee change as evident by history, but at least there is a chance for that.
Maybe after all this side track of discussion actually achieved something as in game lot's of things build towards something but Delamain, while I can see how it has looked good on paper like I explained above, is a distraction. Writer(s) can of course make excuses based on creative freedom and appeal to something like "AI's reasons are beyond us" and pull more stuff from their ass, but that just doesn't work for everyone, it's not necessarily making anything better, it's just more bullshit and crosses the line where, if you think of it, say people who call sci-fi as silly fiction, maybe there's some truth to that.
Regardless of what Delamain does, what I was originally writing about, it's more to do with real people and how game uses unreliable narrators to create situations where player can weight V's decisions from many angles, one of them is that even say V goes with Alt and survives, what kind of life would that be? It's something players encounter and while not everybody discuss these things on say forums like this and when discussed people may have very different perspectives but that is also true to real life and argumentation about things like what drives us, people? I don't see that as a bad thing but at least some communication between individuals very deep in post-modern bubbles, these bubbles being something quite prevalent to this era.
That said, some bridges are too far for me. Delamain might or might not be variation of "add more fake to fake to make it more real". Yet I don't see it relevancy to endings in big scheme of things in story and end endings either way and debating it further is some sort of belaboring the point that is utterly uninteresting to me.
Honestly, dude, I think it may just be that you don't like where they took the concept of AI in the game because it conflicts with your own storytelling preferences.
Or, simply, "I don't like it."
Which is fine for a fictional presentation of anything.
Perhaps because I think Delamain and Alt are my two favorite parts of the book and how the conflict between AI and humans are almost entirety on humanity's end because they're morons.
Or, simply, "I don't like it."
Which is fine for a fictional presentation of anything.
Perhaps because I think Delamain and Alt are my two favorite parts of the book and how the conflict between AI and humans are almost entirety on humanity's end because they're morons.
Maybe not morons, but since the appearance of mankind on earth, it would be the only intelligent entity that could question his status as "undisputed and unquestionable master of the planet". Hard to admit, even more if you consider mankind as AI's creator.
But I digress
It should be noted the Tabletop Game also differentiates multiple types of AI:
* Unintelligent programming based AI. Basically, the malfunctioning, "Grrr, kill all humans" types that are common. Also ones who can do anything related to, say, selling you a car but nothing else. What Mass Effect would call VI.
* Engram and Human Intelligent AI that are designed to be like humans. Alt Cunningham, the Engrams, Delamain before his ascension.
* Godlike superbeing AI: What Alt and Delamin can evolve into that are beyond humanity. Part of the humor if you know the tabletop game is Alt is acting like she's this but clearly isn't.
* Unintelligent programming based AI. Basically, the malfunctioning, "Grrr, kill all humans" types that are common. Also ones who can do anything related to, say, selling you a car but nothing else. What Mass Effect would call VI.
* Engram and Human Intelligent AI that are designed to be like humans. Alt Cunningham, the Engrams, Delamain before his ascension.
* Godlike superbeing AI: What Alt and Delamin can evolve into that are beyond humanity. Part of the humor if you know the tabletop game is Alt is acting like she's this but clearly isn't.
Got a question about the ending...
Why does it seem like Johnny stays at the edge of the Cybernet when he's supposed to go with Alt? (I played as Johnny.)
Was V able to withstand Soulkiller? Or is it V's engram that goes with Alt, and her body is left with a copy of that engram?
...where Rogue gets killed by Smasher.
Why does it seem like Johnny stays at the edge of the Cybernet when he's supposed to go with Alt? (I played as Johnny.)
Was V able to withstand Soulkiller? Or is it V's engram that goes with Alt, and her body is left with a copy of that engram?
On the screenshot, V let the body to Johnny ? The "light' is behind you, it's that ?
If yes, if I'm right, you see trough V's eyes and Johnny simply watch V leaving.
A little bit sad I think. He couldn't keep his word "save V's life"
If no, You also see trough V's eyes, and he's a little bit sad. It's the last time you see him and V regains control of his body (and you to V).