Let's face it. You cannot create true Cyberpunk mechanics.

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Let's face it. You cannot create true Cyberpunk mechanics.

First of all, i want you to read this analyzation fully, without skipping all way ahead. I am myself experienced with tabletop game of Cyberpunk 2020, and giant tons of video games, and i know, that system from Cyberpunk 2020 is too much difficult to be put in AAA game fully. Nowadays even developers of D&D games put only 4 classes in games and simplified mechanics, i hate that type of games, but CD Projekt RED wants to recreate mechanics, that even deeper and ridiculously more hardcore, than even D&D or shadowrun.

Mechanics of Cyberpunk 2020 feature over 90 skills and most of them could be combined into single skills. It has vehicles, driving skills for it, its tech skills divided into too much additional skills, and it has very deep charisma system, that if be put into game must be used every single dialogue with every single NPC, or it will not work as it was in tabletop game.

There only one decision, that CD Projekt RED can make, that will really save system with its full potential intact, its make Cyberpunk 2077 a topdown tactical turn-based rpg game, with vehicle system like from "The Fall Last Days of Gaya" (the only trpg i know, that feature vehicles in post apocalyptic world, i recommend to see it like an example of using vehicles in that type of games). Why? Yes, of course you want to enjoy another Mass Effect clone with bunch of real time shooting and cover system, but all skills and stuff from tabletop game will be deleted just for you to enjoy real time combat system. But this goes even deeper, in original Cyberpunk 2020 you can hurt yourself and cripple your leg, because of unlucky roll, and it happens very frequently. You cannot see a cover based shooter with fumbles, yes? You also should analyse the fact, you can have cars, bikes and even tanks in Cyberpunk 2020, Cyberpunk 2077 features hovering and flying for vehicles. This game could be a dream game of some school boy, that wants GTA with flying cars. But you don't want GTA out of your hardcore tabletop game, right? Because if it will feature real time driving, you can assume, that driving skill will be cut out, because if Cyberpunk 2020 character could fail to ride a vehicle right, if they are in a middle of firefight.

Next i should talk about social skills in this game, that feature oratory, interrogation, intimidate, resist torture/drugs (its a skill), streetwise, Human perception, interview, leadership, seduction, social, persuade & Fast talk, perform, authority, charismatic leader and streetdeal. Even shadowrun had much more simplified system than this game. So if you really want all this social skills be in Cyberpunk 2077 game, you should create game that has even bigger dialogues than Planescape Torment had! Developers must create dialogues out of skills, but not by strict script or (oh no!) cutscenes. But even voice acting will make much smaller opportunity to make deep dialogues. This game must feature most of this skills in every dialogue, to be like tabletop game, and it will not be, because every developer nowadays is lazy and we know it. Developer that don't want to recreate full potential of Cyberpunk 2020 in their game, could just take all this skills and make one out of them (Bethesda Studios like to do that stuff, you know how they can simplify the game), like charisma, but this is also will lead to deletion of giant bunch from that 90 skills of 2020 tabletop game. Lazy developer will delete stuff like biology, botany, mathematics, physics and even piloting skills out from the game to make it more linear without giant bunch of stuff to deal with. And this game also must feature VR, that makes it all more difficult. Virtual Reality in this game must be another giant open world location, to represent true tabletop experience, not some "level", that you complete and forget about.

Today's player too became lazy and don't have nice imagination to roleplay things, they just want another Adam Jenkins, Snake Eater or Witcher to deal with all trouble, because they want idols to worship, not character to play with and influence the game world by their own decisions.

Basically by today's standards we cannot create a game of a dream like Cyberpunk 2077 with 2020's full potential tabletop system, especially with all this technology advancement. Only if CD Projekt RED break them and create game that more realistic than any game ever created. But you will be sad in the end, its just not possible, even in distant future.
 
Yes, yes modern players - bad. Oldschool "true" players - good.

CP2077 is adaptation of tabletop, not copy of it. Mike Pondsmith, the creator of mentioned TT is actively cooperating with devs. Play the The Witcher 2, and see for yourself, how lazy CDPR is, and how over 3 million of players are lacking imagination.
 
i'm sorry,do you have any information for sure coming out from CDPR HQ or you are just a really positive,selfconfident guy with his 4th account on this forum?
 
So sure some abilities will be removed! Why would you have botany in a game that will be constrained to one of the urban settings possible in CP2020? Yes, you can have some gardens and potted plants, but I think that you would buy raw ingredients for drugs from smugglers that bring them from the outside. Why implement geology? That pretty much begs for a human GM to come up for situations which might call for that, and it wouldn't even be any good if he just wrote session after session where the character has to analyze the dirt that was on the murderer's boots when he broke into the victim's apartment. Part of the roleplaying aspect that comes from character building is the risk vs reward of choosing some skills over others. A GM has to make the characters' fortes shine, but they also have to show them situations that make them see the drawbacks from not having chosen other skills.

I have voted for not giving the player character a voice, but give him a lot of conversation options, which would expand somewhat the dialogue from NPCs. It will still be limited, but I guess PnP sessions are also limited to what the GM prepared and how much he can deviate from that with improvisation, etc. Imagine you have an assault on a building guarded by some private army but then your players feel like siding with them against another faction, the GM can still use the same maps and enemies and depict them differently, fooling the players into believing THIS was the scenario he had in mind.
 
Runner does make a good case. I'd like to see game as complex as CP2020 but unfortunately it is not gonna happen.
Still it doesn't mean that this game can't be the best thing out there when it releases.
 
i'm sorry,do you have any information for sure coming out from CDPR HQ or you are just a really positive,selfconfident guy with his 4th account on this forum?

I'm not sure if this was addressed to the OP, or to the guy with the "Moderator" title immediately above your post, but either way, please avoid ad hominem attacks.

And yup, pretty sure it won't have the same type of complexities as the PnP, but hoping it will have a complexity all of its own. And equally sure it won't be a topdown tactical turn-based rpg game
 
I'm sure a turn based vehicule system would be pretty awesome....
Get ready for some thrilling car-chase with the police, all turn based, i can't wait.

Seriously, it's just an adaptation, what you're talking about is basicaly your view of the rules and how you apply it.
It's not an attack on your arguments, just a counter-point of view

Being crippled : it works in fallout, they just need to take the system and make it better.

shooting and cover system: already in the pnp, but turn based is boring, don't get me wrong, i keep playing CP2020 every weeks with my pals, but what works in a Pnp, won't works in a video game (it's not more 1997, it's not being lazzy but real time is more stressful than turn based, you've to think about your action in a fraction of seconds), you can have plenty of "tactical" options without being turn based, i could throw a dozen idea just right now, like being under a cover, pressing your "tactics" button, select a guy in your team, pointing to an enemy/an objective and giving your pal orders, all of this as you're under enemy's fire, and the results of your pals "tacticals missions" you give them depend on their own skills.
It would be totaly realistic, since you'd have to take time, tell them what to do, and waiting for them to do it (wereas in the pnp, a turn is 3seconds, so it would take an eternity to complete what you have in minds), in real time you would sweat a lot more, it's a matter of taste anyway, even if i like old-school turn based RPG's, turn based don't sell anymore (and CDPR make games to sell them...)

This game could be a dream game of some school boy, that wants GTA with flying cars. But you don't want GTA out of your hardcore tabletop game, right? Because if it will feature real time driving, you can assume, that driving skill will be cut out, because if Cyberpunk 2020 character could fail to ride a vehicle right, if they are in a middle of firefight.

Since there'll be skills, you can imagine that if your vehicule skills are low, you'll have hard time controling your car / Av / etc... longer brake distance, you'll have to keep correcting your trajectory, because your car'll swing from right to left, etc... it's not so hard to think of it "video game wise", without is being a pain in the ass to play (because boring gameplay = bored audience = no money), that said, GTA is the king when it comes to urban city with vehicules, yes, they'll have to work it out, but the basic system is the best they could take, you know it's so badly thinked that everyone tries to do something "GTA like" when it comes to vehicules in their game.
Also, Battlefield 3 have a lot of vehicules, it make the game really fun to play, because it's messy and chaotic (just what a cyberpunk game needs)

Same for your weapons, if your skills are low, your aim-point will not have a lot of precision, you'll have a lot of recoil when you'll fire your gun, etc...

It could works better like this, just make it hard to have a decent "playable character", if you see what i mean, if you have low skill, you'll have a low gameplay, no need to be turn based.

social skills in this game, that feature oratory, interrogation, intimidate, resist torture/drugs (its a skill), streetwise, Human perception, interview, leadership, seduction, social, persuade & Fast talk, perform, authority, charismatic leader and streetdeal. Even shadowrun had much more simplified system than this game. So if you really want all this social skills be in Cyberpunk 2077 game, you should create game that has even bigger dialogues than Planescape Torment had!

I agree on that point, dialogues needs to be oriented by your skills, i don't know how they'll make it out, but it's how it have to be thinked about.


Today's player too became lazy and don't have nice imagination to roleplay things, they just want another Adam Jenkins, Snake Eater or Witcher to deal with all trouble, because they want idols to worship, not character to play with and influence the game world by their own decisions.

I'd say it's because games don't let them play it out what they want, gamers still have a lot of imagination, it's up to CDPR now to work game mechanics to make it possible, being an "nobody" is all what cyberpunk is about, i think Mike Pondsmith have already told them what they need to know (since he's working with them, I'm not too much worried about how much it'll be close to the pnp "mood" wise)

Anyway, Cyberpunk is like every pnp: a bunch of rules, and you play it out as your GM intended them, here CDPR will be our GM, we'll see how they'll make their Cyberpunk looks like, it'll never be as huge as the pnp, but the closer the best, just the fact that a bunch of guys are working on a realistic, dark and gritty futuristic RPG cyberpunk oriented is enought to make me happy (because there isn't "real" cyberpunk rpg, not to say real futuristic rpg).

Also, they said it's going to be a Licence, if the game is good and sell well, they'll probably make a whole series of Cyberpunk games, and like every licences, the first games set the path, and the games become better with each game released, I think we'll have something really closer to the pnp for Cyberpunk 2, 3 or something like that, CDPR aren't RPG gods, but i'm sure they can do a really good RPG based on Cyberpunk 2020 pnp, I think it's what everybody is waiting for.
Every group of player, every GM have different point of view about how a game have to play out, so it's impossible to make everyone happy unfortunatelly.

That said, they'd have to release an update to cyberpunk 2020 (or a 2077 pnp), so you'll have the game to have a "basic" idea of the world, and you can play the pnp as you intend it.

A game has to be fun to play, it has to make you want to play it, CDPR needs to find the right middle between the pnp rules and what they can actually do in a video game.

Just my two points.
 
I was too busy giggling at the "deep charisma system" bit to read much further.


It's not going to be turn based.

Let that go and save yourself some future angst.

Hell, Cyberpunk 2020 isn't a great example of turn-based: how many actions ( at -3 to each successive action) are you limited to? Up to you! Take 10 of them on your turn if you want! Or 20!

Yeah, not a great choice.
 
Maelcom, you have good point of view, very nice points and ideas you written, but they have some holes. I enjoy turn based combat because good existing games, that made out from tabletop games, are turn based games (shadowrun, baldur's gate), and they provide player deep tactics and use of skill system (although shadowrun didn't provided nice dialogue system, only UGC "identity - life on a limb" did). At very least game should feature pause system for player, so you can rethink your tactics and apply commands to teammates, i think that's how it will be eventually.

You shall not underestimate player experience with action and racing games. You think driving and shooting skills will really work like you described? Take Fallout New Vegas as example, because of action type of game, you can easily kill very difficult enemy on a very first level of your character. Same can be done with cars and bikes, human player will just adapt to first level of driving skills and still drive like a professional. Players can abuse realtime game system, and complete everything with minimal skills spent on abusable skills.

Skill problem can be fixed pretty simple, developers must implement special abilities, that you can use with needed amount of that skill, that also every enemy in game should have, for balance. And unskillful players also should not use things that need high skill level to use them (for example you should not drive an expensive hover car on level 1 of the driving skill, that allows you to use only cheap old piece of metal on wheels). Game also need good old separated skills for driving different things, like motorcycle skill, different pilot skills, and driving. So player with driving skill, and without single point in motorcycle one cannot drive any motorcycle. Same with weapon types.

Skills from PnP like mathematics and physics could add bonuses to electronics, cybertech, programming, basictech and other tech skills that need them. Biology, Anthropology, Chemistry, Diagnose Illnes skills could be useful bonuses for medics. And so on. I agree although, that even if geology can help understand surroundings on open spaces and draw maps of wilderness, and give bonuses to wilderness survival skill, if there will be no wilderness in the game, skill will be useless, especially if Night City will be one big location in Cyberpunk 2077. Or swimming skill, if developers will not implement any water filled locations. Indeed, many skills in the game can be implemented just by adding locations and quests that needs them, but if there no conditions will be created for them, they are not needed. Like in Fallout 1 science was needed only in few places in whole game, and it was very useful in Fallout 2.

Mission of the developer team right now is to create great amount of possible uses of different bunch of PnP skills and give every class equal balance through the game, create deep dialogue system and make Cyberpunk not only sandbox type of the game by creating big open world, but "sandbox" in mean of its nonlinear gameplay and consequences through various decisions and skill uses. And by making every type of character useful in the game, they can make great replayability, that many games nowadays lack. For the game to be more like tabletop Cyberpunk 2020, it needs to have requirement for a different character to progress story in a different way. So for example: to make a leadership decision, that also have consequences in storyline, you must have very high leadership skill, or story will progress in other direction, but there must be bunch of other skill based directions. Making nonlinear storyline for any game its like making a PnP with hundred GM's talking different things and leading story to their own way.

And of course implementations of new things to the core Cyberpunk PnP system can cover the loss of old ones, if they'll will make mechanics just as complex as original, but adapted to new time, specific locations and quests.
 
I had plans for a long drawn out wall of text but I'm tired today and my brain and eyes still hurt from seeing that wall of text which I tried to read but could understand very little other than VirtualRunner has played millions of games. And that he does not understand what goes on with game developement nor does it appear that he has read any of the interviews about 2077 and what both Mike Pondsmith or CDPR have said about how they are working on 2077. And that all he wants is CDPR to make 2077 in his own vision.

Also using Fallout New Vegas as example for anything in a rather fallacy filled example about combat...yeah, nah.. And turn-based games used to be fun but gimme my real time everything please cause that's even more fun for me and I'd like to assume many others.

My only concern is how CDPR will be able to translate 2020's raw, hardcore and "realistic" combat to the virtual side of things.
 
Oh man, Id love something like the original deus ex's damage system.

Deus Ex's health system was pretty great, but it did lead to some silliness from time to time.


*blows off all limbs with LAM during basic training*

*crawls to quartermaster*

"You've gotta start the next section without arms or tools. Rules are rules".
 
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