You can remove the crownsplitters and/or flip them to different rows etc, Mammuna comes onto the board and that's it. It's not even comparable. So let's not talk about "interaction".
No, by all means, let's talk interaction. So Cleaver spawns 2 muscles as soon as he hits the board (or at least it does for players who know what their doing) so you're left with 1 cleaver and 2 cleaver's muscles.
That means 3 crownspliters of which 2 have shields.
Please, do tell me, how do you kill 2 units with shields in 2 rounds? Or how do you move 3 crownslipters in 2 rounds in such a way that the drill won't get it's maximum effect.
Are you even serious about point 4? Damn, so much stuff in this post that shows me it's a very bad idea to go on with this conversation. That's why I'm out of this now
No, by all means, let's talk interaction. So Cleaver spawns 2 muscles as soon as he hits the board (or at least it does for players who know what their doing) so you're left with 1 cleaver and 2 cleaver's muscles.
That means 3 crownspliters of which 2 have shields.
Please, do tell me, how do you kill 2 units with shields in 2 rounds? Or how do you move 3 crownslipters in 2 rounds in such a way that the drill won't get it's maximum effect.
Well, most of the time atm I'm playing WH, I simply kill Cleaver and use a leader charge to move one of the crownsplitters, it all depends on what kind of deck you play, but mine are usually very removal/control heavy.
Edit: Should also add that often they like to put him out early, which means I can just kill off all the crownsplitters without comitting much to the board myself to be removed. Not saying it's easy to beat or anything, just saying it's something you can interact with.
Ok, that's fair. So you move 1. There's 2 left that he can play the drill between. How do you deal with that?
Let's say you move another. That still makes 2 crownsplitters one next to the other on the other row. How do you stop the drill?
I forgot to mention that i said 2 turns to set up the drill. What you mentioned there it does stop it but only for 1 turn. That means the SY player only needs to play another crownspliter to finish his setup.
Ok, that's fair. So you move 1. There's 2 left that he can play the drill between. How do you deal with that?
Let's say you move another. That still makes 2 crownsplitters one next to the other on the other row. How do you stop the drill?
I forgot to mention that i said 2 turns to set up the drill. What you mentioned there it does stop it but only for 1 turn. That means the SY player only needs to play another crownspliter to finish his setup.
Yes i made a mistake. I corrected that, sorry. Beside your argument is WH vs Drill. WH does have the option to do this with it's leader ability but let's be real, WH is a tier 2 or 3 deck. I was arguing T1 MO deck vs T1 SY deck (drill version).
The whole point was that Drill is even more broken that Mammuna so you think it should be fair to talk decks that actually run Mammuna.
Yes i made a mistake. I corrected that, sorry. Beside your argument is WH vs Drill. WH does have the option to do this with it's leader ability but let's be real, WH is a tier 2 or 3 deck. I was arguing T1 MO deck vs T1 SY deck (drill version).
The whole point was that Drill is even more broken that Mammuna so you think it should be fair to talk decks that actually run Mammuna.
Then you have probably missed the part in the thread where I said SY is the strongest faction against relicts I could think of. I drilled myself through relicts to pro rank this season, was a good time, kind of felt like being the hero of the story))
Having a counter doesn't mean they are not broken, though.
Also, just because the drill is relict nightmare card doesn't mean it's worse than Mammuna (dumbest card in the game). Even though, yes it too should be somewhat nerfed (only after relicts get theirs).
Then you have probably missed the part in the thread where I said SY is the strongest faction against relicts I could think of. I drilled myself through relicts to pro rank this season, was a good time, kind of felt like being the hero of the story))
Having a counter doesn't mean they are not broken, though.
Yes, i guess i did miss that part ). I thought your point was that Drill is fine as is and only Mammuna needs to change. Again, i'm not against changing Mammuna but Drill is far from a balanced card.
And yes, i agree. Situational counters don't make a card fine.
For examply, both Mammuna and Drill can be countered by a Incinerating Trap but that doesn't mean they are ok )
Unless I am misinterpreting this graph, there are anomalies that make me doubt it’s accuracy. First, over later time periods, all factions’ win rates were increasing. This is technically possible, but would indicate that factions with higher win rates are being played less frequently. And at the latest time, all factions have win rates over 50%. This is not possible.
Dunno where you got this fake chart from, but it's obviously suspect on many levels. No link, no survey method, or description of sample size makes this worthless. As mentioned it has an obvious mathematical impossibility with universally rising/falling winrates.
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Also, on the topic of Mammuna, it is a rather weak card against most control decks. Tons of control decks have ways to manipulate their opponents graveyard or decks, and it is easy to brick Mammuna by stealing or deleting the pair target.
For example, if I am SY, and on R1 I see a MO play a griffin, later on in the round once the board is under control, I can simply play "The Scoundrel" and eat his griffen out of his deck, play 12 points, and make 9 coins. So I can brick, pointslam, play a removal engine, and profit in just one turn. I would appraise the value of this single card play at around 33 points. Oh, and you also get a removal engine on the board to kill any other bounty targets. Fair and balanced...
Likewise, SK control decks run Xavier Lemmens (the guy who deletes cards out of the graveyard) and NG have many deck manipulation options that can easily render Mammuna inert. Graveyard manipulation is also powerful against ST's new Orb of insight as well.
Once people adapt to Mammuna, they will see she's actually a neat card that makes players pay more attention to what's in their deck or graveyard, something there was little need to do before. Even other MO players can consider running Ozzrel just to eat an enemy 5 pt bronze and brick a Mammuna.
amazing suggestion just play expensive cards for no points to counter OP cards. I've seen someone suggest playing lambert in every deck to counter gernichora already kekw
You obviously didn't read much of what I wrote, but even in the case of Ozzrel eating something like a Griffen, the Ozzrel plays for 10 points, and costs 9 provisions, so it plays +1 on consume. Then it denies the enemy Mammuna the pair target, taking away another 9 points. So Ozzrel costs 9 and plays for 19 against Mammuna, an extremely cheap and efficient play clocking in at 2:1 points to provisions.
It seems you are looking at Mammuna emotionally and not rationally, rethink your strategy and it's easy to beat her.
Are you sure that it's not you who are thinking emotionally over Mammuna? How can you suggest that every deck should have to tech counter cards (often times unreliable) against this one card and at the same time claim that it is not broken.
Whether you like it or not, I am sure that it is going to get nerfed, the only question is how and when.
Unless I am misinterpreting this graph, there are anomalies that make me doubt it’s accuracy. First, over later time periods, all factions’ win rates were increasing. This is technically possible, but would indicate that factions with higher win rates are being played less frequently. And at the latest time, all factions have win rates over 50%. This is not possible.
Dunno where you got this fake chart from, but it's obviously suspect on many levels. No link, no survey method, or description of sample size makes this worthless. As mentioned it has an obvious mathematical impossibility with universally rising/falling winrates.
You obviously didn't read much of what I wrote, but even in the case of Ozzrel eating something like a Griffen, the Ozzrel plays for 10 points, and costs 9 provisions, so it plays +1 on consume. Then it denies the enemy Mammuna the pair target, taking away another 9 points. So Ozzrel costs 9 and plays for 19 against Mammuna, an extremely cheap and efficient play clocking in at 2:1 points to provisions.
It seems you are looking at Mammuna emotionally and not rationally, rethink your strategy and it's easy to beat her.
in no world does it play for 19, not even close. you act as if there was only 1 target for mamunna and MO doesnt also play kiki worker, gan ceann, self eaters etc. who even plays griffin anymore since people mostly dropped fruit leader?
the MO player will always have a target for mamunna. even on a worker its a ton of points. if you only have 1 target, guess what, play caranthir on another card and play only 1 mamunna.
also if you play ozzrel you need to play something really tall yourself, you cannot just put him in your deck and hope you queue against MO.
If all that chart does is track the top players as they climbed out of rank 3 back into pro rank, then of course the new monster deck will be oversampled and show a disproportionate number of wins. That doesn't change the fact that INSIDE of pro rank, the monster deck is either 3rd or 4th place out of the factions. In fact, it seems that chart tells that exact story as top players reached pro rank with the new monster deck, they quickly found out that control decks wreck MO and then the winrates for other factions begun to rise but not as dramatically because those games were pro players versus pro players.
Stats mean nothing without parameters and sample size description.
Lined Pockets, Precision Strike, and NG are nearly all I see after like 50 games. The occasional SK, and very few monsters, who provides a free win for other control players. This is 100% a hyper control meta as far as I can tell.
Also, again, I am extremely skeptical of the accuracy of these charts. There is no description of where the data is pulled from.
in no world does it play for 19, not even close. you act as if there was only 1 target for mamunna and MO doesnt also play kiki worker, gan ceann, self eaters etc. who even plays griffin anymore since people mostly dropped fruit leader?
the MO player will always have a target for mamunna. even on a worker its a ton of points. if you only have 1 target, guess what, play caranthir on another card and play only 1 mamunna.
also if you play ozzrel you need to play something really tall yourself, you cannot just put him in your deck and hope you queue against MO.
It does play for 19 against Mamunna, and the math is clearly explained to you. Maybe not all in the same round (often it does) but the way to beat Mamunna is before she is played, which means you have 10-13 turns usually to do it. Easy to beat and tons of counters.
I think you also fail to understand that if your opponent is playing multiple bronzes for a Mamunna later on, and you eat one, then he's lost one of his 16 plays that was committed to a ordinary bronze. No MO player wants to play more than 1 or 2 pointslam bronzes, and preferably just 1 so they can play more golds and self-eaters. Bricking any one of them is devestating for monsters who won't be able to do massive pointslams later on with Carinthir and Mamunna. They only get one, and that one will be answer by any number of tall punishes. If they are forced to eat a kikimore woker, great, that one is 4 points of damage to kill 7. Easily removed by tons of cards...
I've yet to lose to MO as lined pockets, other than one time when an opponent had a surprise predatory dive (good play by him). 15-1 versus MO with control decks, not even hard. I think I had bad draws once and someone reached Sabbath once, but I won anyways lol. Control decks are 100x more scary than MO right now.
Also, Ozzrel is a fine tech choice because it's a MO deck and they have plenty of tall units to consume. There is enough room in any MO deck for a tech card, even an expensive mid-range one like Ozzrel. Self-eaters keep their gains so any self-eater that survives round 1 will be around 7-9 points in the graveyard, in addition to any Griffs and Kikimores.
Are you sure that it's not you who are thinking emotionally over Mammuna? How can you suggest that every deck should have to tech counter cards (often times unreliable) against this one card and at the same time claim that it is not broken.
Whether you like it or not, I am sure that it is going to get nerfed, the only question is how and when.
I could care less, it's always funny to watch weaker factions get nerfed because people cry so much XD Such an easy card to counter... you get the entire game to manipulate their decks somehow... If nerfed, MO will just go back to being a forgotten faction in the pro ladder. At least now it has some kind of viability, but without Mammuna then it becomes even more trivial to destroy them. At least now I have to look in their graveyard sometimes, but according to you it will go back to auto-win against MO.
If all that chart does is track the top players as they climbed out of rank 3 back into pro rank, then of course the new monster deck will be oversampled and show a disproportionate number of wins. That doesn't change the fact that INSIDE of pro rank, the monster deck is either 3rd or 4th place out of the factions. In fact, it seems that chart tells that exact story as top players reached pro rank with the new monster deck, they quickly found out that control decks wreck MO and then the winrates for other factions begun to rise but not as dramatically because those games were pro players versus pro players.
Stats mean nothing without parameters and sample size description.
Lined Pockets, Precision Strike, and NG are nearly all I see after like 50 games. The occasional SK, and very few monsters, who provides a free win for other control players. This is 100% a hyper control meta as far as I can tell.
Also, again, I am extremely skeptical of the accuracy of these charts. There is no description of where the data is pulled from.
You have the info of the source in about subpage yet ignore it. In latest meta reports by ElderBlood or Aretuza its either Force of Nature/Fruits leading tier 1. All this is based on some data and research worth more than your whatsoever anecdotal evidence
1. Lined Pockets
2. Precision Strike
3. Fruits of Ysigirth
And NG picked as much as MO. Monsters are not tier 1 at the pro levels.
As for the meta reports, they are incomprehensible. They all say MO is super strong yet loses to control (which I've said), but places it in T1? Sounds like people getting swept up in the MO fad, not actual critical thinking. A deck that is super vulnerable to control is only T2. T1 decks have no easy counters, like Lined Pockets.
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You have the info of the source in about subpage yet ignore it.
Well, I agreed and admitted in some other thread that, I, in fact underestimated Simlas. I still think Orb is an overpriced card existing solely for the purpose of Whisperers Blast in one card. The only reason ST has been very popular is that it is supposed to be a counter for MO decks. The amount of pointslam MO can make can never be matched by even greedy NR decks and that is the reason NR couldn't live up in Thanned Coup. Same goes with SK. SK's pointslam is no match for MO in the current state.
I agree that in the current state of SY, MO, and NG, ST is a solid 4th faction. Look at the stats from the Top 16 Qualifiers. ST has a win rate of 42.55% which is nothing to be happy and proud about (may be when comparing with NR and SK, yes.. at least ST is not completely dead as it has been in past several seasons):
BTW, did anyone see the Qualifiers? Especially that one game in which MO pointslammed One Hundred and Twenty Five points in Five cards. Even when people specifically teched against MO, it had 51% win rate. Now that is what I call OP and Tier 1. SY is a different story altogether and I hope to see some some meaningful nerfs to SY and MO this patch.
I don't know how much is the meta report from other teams are reliable. We can be 100% sure only when CDPR releases the leader playrate-winrate sheet. While Team Arituza says Madoc deck as Front runner (which has only Simlas from PoP exapansion) Elderblood says Simlas+Orb as Tier 1 (which was played in the Challenger). But I agree that ST is not in dumpster anymore. Lets wait for this weekend to see what happens in Open which is much more standard and much more competitive and people now know how each faction fares well in tournaments.
Someone posted the stats from another thread of the qualifiers, and the stats tell quite a revealing story about MO.
When MO go first, they had a winrate of 70%, but when they go second they have a winrate of 37%. That is a MASSIVE variance, very unhealthy for the game.
It seems to me that the MO cards aren't broken, it's thrive that has become broken now that MO has gotten some quality pointslams. Before, building up thrive was difficult, but now that monsters have powerful pointslams later on it forces opponents to react quickly to Endrega Eggs, Nekkers, or Self-Eaters (although just a relict thrive), because these cards if left unanswered early on will carry away the game.
Conversely, when MO go second, they get crushed because opponents have a chance to put down removal engines onto their board or develop their board, making it impossible to get the thrive steamroll going. Without the early game thrive, reaching later sabbath becomes very difficult for MO and they lose hard.
If MO have their new cards nerfed they will go back to being trash, but if thrive is instead looked at and modified so that it's not simply go first or lose, I think the MO problems people are having will be solved. Right now, it's apparently a coin toss for MO.
