Did patch 1.1 mess with the LOD Distance?

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There is no "downgrade".

Yes there is, you said it yourself, graphics are subjectively worse.

Hence, the number of distant buildings drawing in at a higher levels of detail...might be what's causing a bug that prevents a quest from triggering a flag in its script. The quest may break because the engine is too busy prioritizing LOD. The script gets postponed by the engine so much, that another flag fires first and creates a dead end, or an endless loop. In some other spot, the reason a nearby object receives a corrupted texture is because there are too many dynamic lights and shadows on-screen, and the engine can't make the call it needs to get that texture decompressed in time.
OK, fair enough, the engine breaks (or may break) due to .. unoptimized .. handling of events with enough bling. I can buy that explanation but I don't have to be happy about the solution. The proper way to fix this would be to update the game engine to make sure the scripts execute properly.
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@osmoopa and @buzzfunk: Could you maybe kindly share comparison screenshot so we can verify that this issue exists? If we had those we could make a much more compelling argument. Thanks :)
Well, he did say it's not possible to downgrade to 1.0.6 so comparison screenshots are tricky.
 
Does this look like I have 4k resolution and all the graphics settings at the best as they can be?

no. The lod is obscenely low. Period.
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Nope, but I would rather say that it look like a game who wait a Next-Gen patch ;)

the "next gen patch" is for next gen console to add some RT (AMD hardware is weak in RT and PS5/SX have an AMD soc that's not even powerful like a 6800 that... is still weak in RT...) and some other effect/improvements but do not expect "miracle" on the LOD and, above all, do not expect anything "special" that will affect the PC version.
Glad do be wrong anyway.
 
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Does this look like I have 4k resolution and all the graphics settings at the best as they can be?
No, this does though:
1629810854556.png


What people are playing on PC IS the next gen patch. Everyone who believes the next gen patch will bring graphical improvements for PC will be in for a big disappointment...
Depends, if the PC version has been downgraded in order to faster optimise the game for old-gen, there could be an upgrade for the PC with the next-gen patch.

Well, he did say it's not possible to downgrade to 1.0.6 so comparison screenshots are tricky.
He also followed that statement by saying that he was able to.


Generally, my point is that we have a far easier discussion if we can prove that there has been a downgrade with comparison screenshots. Personally, I would say there hasn't been one because I hadn't started exploring Night City pre-1-10. Thus, I'm unable to be a judge of that.

Also, your memory can be deceiving, which is why older games that get a new and shiny Remake look just as we remember them, because we didn't properly remember the bad textures and things like that. If we had comparison screenshots, we could properly show that building X does not load post-1.06 in the same quality. I think this could also lead to the developers assigning this issue a higher priority than it currently has.

I do however agree with the notion that Cyberpunk 2077 does indeed have weird LOD issues that should be fixed regardless if there has been a downgrade or not.
 
as far as I am concerned, I immediately (and disappointing) noticed the difference going from 1.06 to 1.1, and the memory cannot have deceived me since I was playing it up to a few hours before the update and after consecutive days (and days...) of gameplay.. There was a downgrade, that's for sure, and it was also clearly visible. If they call it "optimization" good for them, but we are neither blind (nor stupid).
 
as far as I am concerned, I immediately (and disappointing) noticed the difference going from 1.06 to 1.1, and the memory cannot have deceived me since I was playing it up to a few hours before the update and after consecutive days of gameplay.... There was a downgrade and it was also clearly visible, then if they call it "optimization" good for them, but we are neither BLIND (nor stupid)
Listen, I'm not disagreeing with you directly. Frankly, I currently do not have an opinion on this subject. However, I do still believe that we have an easier time arguing this case if we had comparison screenshots.
 
He also followed that statement by saying that he was able to.
[be able to downgrade] Nope, that was someone else. Apparently GOG lets you do that, somehow.

Personally I'll take downgraded GFX over broken scripts and QOL enchancements are nice too. Although I did actually make a big upgrade to my PC for Cyberpunk (2500k + RTX 2060 => 5600x + RTX 3070.
 
Yes there is, you said it yourself, graphics are subjectively worse.
That's correct: subjective. And I agree that there have been noticeable changes. I agree that most people can argue certain things looked better before. But I'll also point out that I'm seeing fewer instances late draw-in, sudden frame-drops when entering certain areas, and a more cohesive visual balance across the board. (YES -- many elements of the game draw in closer, but I'm not really noticing this drastically overwhelming, immersion-shattering, visual mess with game assets popping in 5 feet from me. Actually, if I had to make a comparison, I'd say things are now drawing in at about the same distance as equivalent assets would have appeared in TW3. Occasionally, especially if driving quickly, I'll see a billboard or details for a building materialize in way that's, like, "Erm...dorf!" But it's hardly a game-breaking issue. It simply needs a little more tweaking here and there.)

This type of pop in can really bug people, I get that. But it may be what's necessary to get things situated in a completely stable way.

OK, fair enough, the engine breaks (or may break) due to .. unoptimized .. handling of events with enough bling. I can buy that explanation but I don't have to be happy about the solution. The proper way to fix this would be to update the game engine to make sure the scripts execute properly.
What do you think the devs are doing? How do you think it works? That a few people spend a couple of hours saying, "Oh, make the FPS better. No that looks bad, make it look better. Now make it look better and make the FPS better. Good! Let's do Pacifica next."

It's a process. A looong, complicated, extremely difficult process of managing various elements of how the engine is working under the hood to handle (literally) tens of thousands of individual functions that render and draw every single frame of every single scene. The optimization is not done yet. As the studio said, they've finally got it to a place where everything is working smoothly and correctly. This does not mean, "Everything is 100% perfect now, and we're completely done optimizing and improving the engine." It means, "A balance has been struck, and now, we can work from a foundation that should perform better for most players."

Players are still going to encounter issues if there's something with their system config the game doesn't like. This is true of all games. Players that used mods at some point may still run into exclusive issues that require them to completely wipe their game, reinstall, and start over. This is true of all games. (Anyone that may want to argue that is clearly unfamiliar with how modding works for games that are still undergoing developmental changes.) Players are still going to subjectively not like the fact that they can't have every last fire escape or window frame draw in a minimum of 1000 meters from the camera. (And here's where modders can go ahead and push the engine past its limits for hardware that can handle that -- but that doesn't mean that it's a universally stable approach, nor that it's possible to do that on the official minimum / recommended specs.)

See, it's not possible for a game to cater specifically to players that have ultra-high-end PC hardware, with dual RTX 3090s, liquid cooled, and capable of 100+ FPS at true 4K. Not until that level of hardware is industry and market standard. This game is made and will continue to be optimized primarily for:
1629812464109.png


When the Next-Gen Update is ready, new specs will be released, and that build of the game will certainly push the engine further.

Also, something that probably should be included on modern specification charts is the Frames Per Second -- as most games are specced at 30, 60, and 72 FPS nowadays. Standard vsync for 60Hz, 120Hz, and 144Hz monitors, respectively, at standard resolutions. Not unlimited FPS with overclocking using unsupported resolutions and aspect ratios [like ultra-widescreen.] Very often, especially for games that rely on specific frame-timing for things like physics modeling or script triggers, using unlimited FPS can and will introduce issues for many players. This is true of most complex RPGs, Simulations, or Strategy games. It's best to save that sort of Power-User stuff for Action, Shooters, Racing, Platformers, etc. Not games that are doing thousands of different things per millisecond under the hood.

One thing has always been true: if you try to make a game do something it doesn't really want to do, you're almost guaranteed to have issues. Put your system in the proper configuration, and you'll have smooth sailing.

For console users, keep in mind that consoles are not 100% identical. They all have equivalent specs, but the make and model of many internal components as well as the software/firmware being used is different based on the geographical region where the unit was assembled. So, yes, it's very possible for this XBX to have massive issues, while that XBX has no issues at all. If you're seeing something really wonky, send in a ticket. Additionally, it's very important even for consoles to be in good shape to run games, silly as that may sound in words. Having lots of apps, like marketplaces, friends and chat features, updates, etc. active in the background can interfere with game functions and performance. They will limit the RAM available or create issues if a game suddenly needs to tax the system during a busy scene, for example. Another critical issue with many consoles is that there isn't enough free space on the HDD / SSD for the operating system to function properly. A good rule of thumb is to ensure you always leave 20% of your max storage space free. It's necessary for paging file usage during normal operations. Having a function like that run out of space will definitely cause slowdowns, glitches, and/or instability. Even on consoles, smartphones, handhelds, etc.

And another reminder that these are not official statements from CDPR about how Cyberpunk 2077 works or what it is or is not capable of. These are my thoughts based on my experience with hardware and gaming since the early 1980s. Members are welcome to take or leave it, but this is what has worked for me over the years, whether building my own systems or dealing with off-the-shelf models.
 
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Listen, I'm not disagreeing with you directly. Frankly, I currently do not have an opinion on this subject. However, I do still believe that we have an easier time arguing this case if we had comparison screenshots.

Yes, I know, you start from 1.1 if I understand correctly. Personally I rarely make screenshots (I want that my nvme M2 will last, I even save the game as less than I can and use a txt command to disable the autosave XD), perhaps someone have old screens from 1.06, dunno, but I can assure you that's the difference it was noticeable. I don't know what else to say. But it annoys me (I'm not talking about you on the merits, but in general) that something is called "optimization" when simply it isn't. As another user said correctly, optimization does not increase performance at the expense of quality, the user does not have to perceive any degradation, that is REAL optimization! If I want to get more frame with less quality I already have the video settings, but I don't want to be nerfed, at least not when I used to have a better graphic with an old version of the game :disapprove:
 
Why should PC users wait it? PC users had gorgeous graphics before 1.1 patch so why did CDPR downgraded it?!

I can think of a couple of reasons:

1) CDPR devs want a single code base to manage, which means that all platforms will have the same settings and same options.

2) The engine is designed in such a way that the graphics options controlling the overall LOD/ texture/lighting quality distance settings are hard coded and there is not an easy way to make sliders for them without redesigning the interface.

I'm not defending either of the above, just pointing out possible challenges for the team. I think they'd be better served to commit to making players happy by providing the ability to set these options, at least on PC. That might mean some heartache for the devs, but it will go a long way to improving the public perception of increasing quality with increasing patch levels.

On another note, I notice that before 1.2 I never saw people or vehicles loading. They were there or not, and when I move or turned around suddenly everything was "just there". With 1.2 and later, I now fairly often will tun or move quickly and see a vehicle or person(s) "phase in" as they are loaded into the scene. It's distracting and I don't see a need for it since it's a "new thing" with later patches. BTW I'm running a 3080 at 1440p so I should not be overstressed on hardware.
 
...that something is called "optimization" when simply it isn't.
Optimization does not mean: "Everything is now better across the board."

Optimization means: "Give and take in different areas to achieve a goal."

The goal for Cyberpunk was to ensure stability, smoother performance, and correct overall rendering issues. This required certain aspects of the visuals to be scaled back in order to function properly and avoid creating issues in other areas of gameplay. (That's reality pounding on the door in the background. It's already inside the room; it's just making sure people can't ignore it.)

As the work continues, I'm sure tweaks will be made to improve how things look. That's how development and optimization works.
 
Optimization does not mean: "Everything is now better across the board."

Optimization means: "Give and take in different areas to achieve a goal."

The goal for Cyberpunk was to ensure stability, smoother performance, and correct overall rendering issues. This required certain aspects of the visuals to be scaled back in order to function properly and avoid creating issues in other areas of gameplay. (That's reality pounding on the door in the background. It's already inside the room; it's just making sure people can't ignore it.)

As the work continues, I'm sure tweaks will be made to improve how things look. That's how development and optimization works.
If CDPR does not allow computer users to self-adjust the LOD, drawing distance, and so on, then why did you also remove the ability to install the 1.06 version and all versions before that of the game?
 
If CDPR does not allow computer users to self-adjust the LOD, drawing distance, and so on, then why did you also remove the ability to install the 1.06 version and all versions before that of the game?
I'm not expert, but as far as I know, on GOG, you can "easily" back to all of the previous versions.
On steam, it's not as easy, but also possible.
By doing that, you agree to possibly encounter all of the serious bugs/problems already "fixed" (like being stuck in the main quest without any solution for finish the game).
A post about that :
 
If CDPR does not allow computer users to self-adjust the LOD, drawing distance, and so on, then why did you also remove the ability to install the 1.06 version and all versions before that of the game?
It does allow the user to configure these settings -- just not the same way as it worked before. That was the whole point of the optimization.

Because of the way online marketplaces function, it's not possible to update a game officially, but still allow for players to roll back to prior versions. It's a support / liability concern. Legal issue and descision. I think it's pretty dumb in practice, as well, but it won't be changing. Totally impossible on Steam or Origin, as far as I know. It might be possible on GOG if you download the installation packages manually through your browser (ala not Galaxy). The base installation may still be 1.0, with other updates as separate packages. (I don't know for sure about CP2077; you'll have to check how the downloads are structured.) If it's individual packages for the game and updates, just install up to 1.6, then stop.
 
What do you think the devs are doing? How do you think it works? That a few people spend a couple of hours saying, "Oh, make the FPS better. No that looks bad, make it look better. Now make it look better and make the FPS better. Good! Let's do Pacifica next."
Ye-es but the problem is apparently with the event system, not FPS. They should be entirely decoupled and if they're not, there's a fundamental problem on how the engine works. Otherwise your game could break if you're running it with low end PC with choppy graphics, or vice versa. I can't think of any other instance right away where someone says that events and triggers break because the engine gfx trashes the system too much. At least not for published games. Graphics breaking and game crashing if things are pushed too much, yes, or funky physics because someone's routine was written for console with fixed 30FPS.. But triggers..? I guess the physics case could break scripts if object x ends up in a lake unexpectedly but that's not what happens here.

Closest I can think of is shitty old days when everything was single threaded and UI could start lagging hard when a game pushed the system. Paradox was "good" with this before they upgraded the system to "multi-threaded", i.e. UI runs in one thread, scripts run in another and the other 10 cores in your system do nothing.
 
consoles are not 100% identical. They all have equivalent specs, but the make and model of many internal components as well as the software/firmware being used is different
IMHO this is a VERY good and important point. Especially for PCs where thousands of major factors can be different and it's nearly impossible to track minute details like "silicon lottery". It's very similar with consoles, just that it isn't advertised, because the product thrives to be "simple".
 
Optimization does not mean: "Everything is now better across the board."

Optimization means: "Give and take in different areas to achieve a goal."

The goal for Cyberpunk was to ensure stability, smoother performance, and correct overall rendering issues. This required certain aspects of the visuals to be scaled back in order to function properly and avoid creating issues in other areas of gameplay. (That's reality pounding on the door in the background. It's already inside the room; it's just making sure people can't ignore it.)

As the work continues, I'm sure tweaks will be made to improve how things look. That's how development and optimization works.




I didn't have any particular stability issues with 1.06 (some crash could happen as much as now, but nothing relevant), so we can scramble around as much as we want, but still does not convince me as an acceptable motivation for what I see now on my PC version (with all due respect to your opinions, of course :beer:)
 
At least not for published games. Graphics breaking and game crashing if things are pushed too much, yes, or funky physics because someone's routine was written for console with fixed 30FPS.. But triggers..? I guess the physics case could break scripts if object x ends up in a lake unexpectedly but that's not what happens here.
Simple quote, not personnaly tested:
SOME games - notably games that run on the engine Bethesda uses for games like Skyrim - have their physics calculated in relation to the framerate. More frames? More physics. Sometimes more physics is bad physics.
Just take TES V’s opening with too high of a framerate and you’ll get an example.
 
That's correct: subjective.
Well, if we had comparison screenshots it would not be subjective. Usually, you can argue about the style of a game but commonly people agree that the higher the resolution the better and the farther you can see the better.

many elements of the game draw in closer, but I'm not really noticing this drastically overwhelming, immersion-shattering, visual mess with game assets popping in 5 feet from me. Actually, if I had to make a comparison, I'd say things are now drawing in at about the same distance as equivalent assets would have appeared in TW3.

Well, there is a "garbage mountain" that looks awful from a LOD perspective:

mnt_bug_02.jpeg


Also, while I do love Witcher 3 comparing the LOD behaviour to a game from 2015 is not right for a game that was released in 2020. I know, I often draw a Witcher 3 comparison as well, because both use different versions of the RED Engine, but if CDPR was unable to get this right for Cyberpunk 2077 they should definitely invest the required time for their next game. Especially, when compared to what Unreal 5's Nanite technology is capable of. (Although Nanite should be taken with a grain of salt because we have yet to see this technology deployed in a real game.

What do you think the devs are doing? How do you think it works? That a few people spend a couple of hours saying,
Honestly, until recently old-gen did have the utmost priority and those fixes where required fast. If two fixes where presented where one would increase the performance on old-gen while keeping the visual fidelity unchanged, and a similar one that would additionally decrease the performance and would only take a third of the time to implement, I think they might have gone with the latter one.

I think they needed a bunch of fixes quickly, which they had to deploy on a running system. If Cyberpunk 2077 was released today, it would probably look better on PC and run smoother on old-gen. (Unless there truly is a real fundemental issue with the RED Engine.)

"A balance has been struck, and now, we can work from a foundation that should perform better for most players."
Yeah, I also believe that if they downgraded Cyberpunk 2077 before, they won't continue doing so. From this on out, it's probably moving forward in terms of visual fidelity.

See, it's not possible for a game to cater specifically to players that have ultra-high-end PC hardware, with dual RTX 3090s, liquid cooled, and capable of 100+ FPS at true 4K.
I miss those days when ultra settings where truly ultra and players weren't able to run the game at this setting with the best computer money could buy at that time. It was just developers using and trying crazy things, like Witcher 2's Bokeh filter. Nowadays, people get angry when the can't run a game at ultra with 60fps on a toaster. (I'm not talking about console users here, the game was marketed and sold for old-gen so these people need to get a game that runs!)

Not unlimited FPS with overclocking using unsupported resolutions and aspect ratios [like ultra-widescreen.]
I disagree here, developers should take that into account and they usually do and if their game is affected to much by an uncommon aspect ration than that's just bad design. Personally, I'm gaming on 5120x1440 and I haven't had any problems yet. Sure, I had to change Witcher 2's binary to support that resolution but afterwards the game was running fine. With more modern games, like Witcher 3 or Cyberpunk 2077 I didn't have any issues.

Yes, I know, you start from 1.1 if I understand correctly. Personally I rarely make screenshots (I want that my nvme M2 will last, I even save the game as less than I can and use a txt command to disable the autosave XD), perhaps someone have old screens from 1.06, dunno, but I can assure you that's the difference it was noticeable. I don't know what else to say. But it annoys me (I'm not talking about you on the merits, but in general) that something is called "optimization" when simply it isn't. As another user said correctly, optimization does not increase performance at the expense of quality, the user does not have to perceive any degradation, that is REAL optimization! If I want to get more frame with less quality I already have the video settings, but I don't want to be nerfed, at least not when I used to have a better graphic with an old version of the game
It's your SSD so do whatever you like, but you are probably a bit on the paranoid side and as long as you keep 20-25% (the more the better) free it will be fine.

Optimization does not mean: "Everything is now better across the board."

Optimization means: "Give and take in different areas to achieve a goal."

The goal for Cyberpunk was to ensure stability, smoother performance, and correct overall rendering issues. This required certain aspects of the visuals to be scaled back in order to function properly and avoid creating issues in other areas of gameplay. (That's reality pounding on the door in the background. It's already inside the room; it's just making sure people can't ignore it.)

As the work continues, I'm sure tweaks will be made to improve how things look. That's how development and optimization works.
I stand by my statement that optimisation is only optimisation if the visual fidelity is roughly the same. Theoretically, I could remove all NPC in Cyberpunk and call this optimisation as well. Sure, it is up for discussion what "roughly" means, but if the LOD issue wasn't as pronounced in 1.06 I would call it a downgrade and not optimisation.

To stress the point I've made earlier again, I doubt that those things where really gameplay related and broke the game fundamentally. I much rather assume this matter to be very complicated and CDPR did neither have the time, nor the resources to fix this in a proper manner. That being said, I agree with your last statement that since 1.23 this enormous pressure was lifted from their shoulders.

Also, when having a look at the patch notes CDPR was able to fix a myriad of issues which also makes the gameplay experience far more enjoyable on PC than it was on launch.
 
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